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brashcandy

From Pawn to Player: Rethinking Sansa XVIII

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Yes, I wanted to say that, too, Ragnorak. How Milady's analysis also serves as praise for the writing. It's clear the author has put so much thought into telling the story.

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Yes, I wanted to say that, too, Ragnorak. How Milady's analysis also serves as praise for the writing. It's clear the author has put so much thought into telling the story.

So true. These threads have really highlighted how well GRRM writes. It sometimes seems incredible that he puts so much thought into his writing. I sometimes think are we over analyzing? But the analysis is so logical that it appears unlikely, especially as he states that his books need to be re-read. No wonder it takes him so long to write!

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Milady, thank you so much for a brilliant essay! It indeed was a pleasure to read and helped enlighten such a complex character as The Hound. I do love that Martin wrote him as a non-POV as every time he steps out across the page I know my reading pleasure will be rewarded.

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Mladen, fascinating take on why people (mis)judge Sansa and I also loved Daphne´s addition.

What I find very interesting in this instance is that people not only judge Sansa harshly they also also judge her as if she was an adult with a fully developed personality. The same is actually done with her sister: In the end people see Sansa as docile, subservient damsel-in-distress and Arya as pro-active protofeminist. But this is a bit ridiculous because they are still children and even without the story unfolding there is so much room for change. In an AU where everything is well Sansa probably still would lose some of her illusions, for example she might be confronted with other marriages that are not as happy as that of her parents. Arya still might be a "tomboy" but there is a decent change that one day she would like to have a family, too.

So why are people so harsh towards an eleven-year-old? At 13, fan-favorite tyrion thought a marriage with a commoner might work out. An even older LF was ready to fight a trained warrior for the hand of a girl far above his social station. But somehow Sansa is the one who is unforgivable naive?

If you want a clue / quick theory then here it is:

People viewing early Sansa are seeing her naive desires for Joffrey as being rooted in a general sort of shallowness. She blinds herself to what he is like because of what he is (a prince) and the status that being with him will bring her. In other words, he's the popular boy, and she the popular girl. It is a "love" match by elitists for elitists, not really love at all.

In the case of young Tyrion and Young Petyr, there is a perceived romantic element to it as well, but one that seems rooted in things apart from social status, or even contrary to it. Plus a large amount of rooting for the underdog which they both definitely are.

But to summarize: people are judging her infatuation with Joffrey as one born of shallowness, and her in that phase of her life as someone shallow and arrogant. Truth, honour, loyalty, courage - all of these are anti-shallow heroic virtues that at the time she did not seem to really value or possess.

As you say, she was 11 and had a head full of unchallenged status quo sort of values, so people should cut her some slack on that front. However since you asked for a reason why some people react to her with such vitriol, the basic answer is that many people really hate anyone who seems shallow.

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But to summarize: people are judging her infatuation with Joffrey as one born of shallowness, and her in that phase of her life as someone shallow and arrogant. Truth, honour, loyalty, courage - all of these are anti-shallow heroic virtues that at the time she did not seem to really value or possess.

And yet, upon close examination, we see that Sansa does value those virtues in AGOT; the conflict occurs due to the fact that Joff is pretty much the antithesis of all these, and yet for various reasons, Sansa has to remain invested in thinking that he can be her ideal prince. This somewhat self-imposed blindness is predominantly borne from her desire to fulfil the socially constructed feminine ideal, and less of any intrinsically vain or shallow personality. For anyone interested in an excellent analysis into that relationship with Joffrey and the dynamics at work therein, I highly recommend checking out Summerqueen's essay for the male influences project. It can be found in Resources 8.

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<snip>

<snip>

I can see where Pod is getting at, it's the impression many readers leave me with. The unfortunate thing is when this initial impression contaminates the viewpoint for the remainder of the series so that all further character growth is lost.

I tend to think of Sansa in the first book as being very naive with a particular world view and trying to make what she encounters fit in to her idealized assumptions on how the world work. So, her being young and naive informs her understanding on how people should behave, think, act, look, etc. Of course, Sansa is not in Kansas and her understanding is wrong. To me, it seems like much of what we see Sansa doing is trying to reinforce or making things fit in to her naive way of looking at the world. It's not shallowness or selfishness that drives this behavior exactly but it comes across that way to some. So, it's looking at what appears to be shallow behavior and trying to understand what is driving it or why Sansa is acting a particular why. As you point out brashcandy, that's really what is happening with Joffrey. I think tze touches on some of this in her amazing post about Sansa and Jon. He's her brother and a bastard and Sansa sometimes struggles to figure out how he fits in to her world at times but that isn't because she's selfish, it's because she's had a world view and perspective drilled in to her from a very young age and he doesn't quite fit.

As I said, the unfortunate thing is when the recognition of just how strong her character arc is and her growth is overlooked because of these initial impressions. Her development is easily amongst the strongest in the series. There are characters who are just as complex as she is but they don't necessarily have the growth that Sansa does. Actually, I'd say there are only a few characters that come close.

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Well said, Kittykat. As for growth, when it comes to the major POV characters, I think she trumps them all. I can only think of Jon and Dany as having that similar feel of true evolution throughout the series.

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Well said, Kittykat. As for growth, when it comes to the major POV characters, I think she trumps them all. I can only think of Jon and Dany as having that similar feel of true evolution throughout the series.

Those were two of the characters that come close. I was thinking about Jaime too but that might just be my inner fan girl coming out.

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Well said, Kittykat. As for growth, when it comes to the major POV characters, I think she trumps them all. I can only think of Jon and Dany as having that similar feel of true evolution throughout the series.

Well, brash, I have to agree on Sansa`s growth trumping all others. But, I don`t see the great evolution in Dany or Jon, or at least it`s not major as Sansa`s. Dany has always been brave, there was always fire in her, she personally changed a little, only the circumstances changed. As for Jon, I have to say I don`t see it, he has changed his ideal view on the Wall much as Sansa, but he remains basically the same. For me, Jaime, with Sansa, had the greatest evolutionary road of all characters.

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Well, brash, I have to agree on Sansa`s growth trumping all others. But, I don`t see the great evolution in Dany or Jon, or at least it`s not major as Sansa`s. Dany has always been brave, there was always fire in her, she personally changed a little, only the circumstances changed. As for Jon, I have to say I don`t see it, he has changed his ideal view on the Wall much as Sansa, but he remains basically the same. For me, Jaime, with Sansa, had the greatest evolutionary road of all characters.

Jon's character growth is pretty similar to Sansa's actually. It's the same sort of subtlety, butterbumps has written on the similarities in their character arc a few times. I'm trying to think of where those would be and if I do, I'll post them here.

But, he starts out the same way as Sansa, just naive in different ways. He gets exposed to many different teachers like Sansa does - Jeor, Aemon, Ygritte, and so on. As the story goes on, he's constantly reevaluating his world view and changing based upon his experiences. Some characters in the series are very complex but I think you are dead on that for some of them, it's their circumstances that change. But, Jon is like Sansa in that he takes in everything that happens to him and evolves based upon it. Jon and Sansa happen to be very different people but the way they both grow in the series is very similar.

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I chose Dany and Jon because I think they have changed significantly along the way, in great part because of their experiences. But this isn't the place to debate it :) I do agree that Jaime has grown a great deal as well.

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@kitty, brash, before giving any answer to that, I`ll have to think more. But we do agree on naivite in the beginning concerning the world in both Sansa and Jon.

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First of all, I would like to apologize for posting this so very, very late. Uni and RL got in the way, but at long last here is my contribution to the B&B analysis project we have been doing for the last months. I just hope you all like it and that I made both Sansa-Sandor and the Disney classic tale with which many of us grew up adoring justice! :)

Who Could Ever Learn to Love a Beast?

*Belle = Sansa:

At the start of the movie, Belle longs to see the outside world much like Sansa wished to see something besides Winterfell, and Belle loves to read and loose herself in her books, dreaming of what it would be like to live one of those adventures. This reminds me of the way Sansa wished she could be a lady from a song. Belle and Sansa are similar in this. Tales about faraway places, swordfights and magic spells, princes in disguise, all fit in into the category of what these two characters find entertaining. And there is also this: Belle says that she doesn’t feel like fitting in the small village she lives in, and has no one to talk to. Sansa also once thought there were places in the south where she could be happier than in Winterfell. Sansa must have felt isolated at times with her initial location. Not many singers took the trouble to going up so far north, for example. Yet it is when she is living as a hostage in Maegor’s Holdfast that her true isolation starts, where there really isn’t anybody she can talk to, for she is an outcast, the way the villagers considered Belle and her father to be for their different way of seeing life.

Another similarity between Belle and Sansa is the development they undergo during the journey they undertake. Belle and Sansa wanted to have adventures at the start, but at the end of the film, and in Feast for Crows, we can see that what they really care for is only to be loved for themselves. Belle found a man in the end who accepted her for who she was just as much as she did with him, and while Sansa yearns for this but has yet to be allowed to obtain it by Martin, I do see her at least wishing currently to marry someone she loves rather than to obtain an “ambitious” future. And so far, the only man whom we know cared for Sansa herself rather than her claim was Sandor. He didn’t want to change her and mold her into something she wasn’t. The Beast didn’t do this with Belle either.

*The Prince and Gaston = Joffrey, Tyrion & Littlefinger:

“Once upon a time in a faraway land, a young prince lived in a shining castle,” is how the movie starts, and associating it with Sansa, it already sounds like a story that the Sansa from AGoT would love to hear. And when Joffrey Baratheon comes into her life, this is exactly what he appears to be. There was no way Sansa, a sheltered eleven year old could know that, just as the Beast at the start, Joff was spoiled, selfish and unkind, although he had everything his heart desired. And just as the prince in the beginning, when he sneers at the simple rose the witch offers to him in exchange of shelter, Joffrey sneers at simple things like love or well, anything really. Even Tyrion noticed that Sansa would have made Joff a splendid queen if he had only had sense enough to love her.

Gaston, the antagonist of the movie, (whom I must admit I always thought of as handsome), is a handsome, conceited, rude man. I think that when it comes to him, we can link him with Joffrey, Tyrion and Petyr.

Let’s start with Joff: Sansa in the first book reminds me of the blonde triplets who have a huge crush on Gaston. Sansa goes through this with Joff and Loras, but by the third book, she has grown and matured into a “Belle” not one of the blonde sisters. She sees right through Joff the way Belle sees through Gaston, and pities the Tyrell cousins for fawning over Joffrey’s lips and the knights and men they’ve kissed or allow to pay them courtship.

Other little resemblances between Joffrey and Gaston are that they don’t like reading books one bit, and that they both plead for their lives, Joff to Arya near the Trident and Gaston to the Beast towards the end. And both men think that the girl they are meant to marry couldn’t have been luckier. Gaston even tells Belle that there isn’t a girl in town who wouldn’t wish to be on her shoes as he is proposing, and while many would agree, in the sense of what being married to Gaston or to the future king of Westeros, Belle and Sansa know how empty that position would be for them, full of pain and limitations and humiliation, submission, and more such things.

Many would think that Tyrion could be the Beast to Sansa’s Belle, but I associate the Imp more with Gaston too. When Belle asks Gaston, “What do you know about my dreams?” as he is proposing to her, I asked myself, “What does Tyrion really know about Sansa?” Gaston wanted a wife who would rub his feet and give him strong sons and cook for him. Tyrion wanted a wife who would give him an heir one day, as well as bring him her sorrows and her joys. Tyrion never stops to consider what Sansa would want.

Another of the men in Sansa’s life we can associate with Gaston is Littlefinger. In the movie, there is a scene in a tavern in which Gaston is persuading the owner of an asylum to help him out with imprisoning Belle’s father so that he can be brought one step forward in his scheme of marrying her. I think this resembles what Littlefinger did with Joffrey. We know he convinced Joff to kill Ned, and then he went ahead and asked Cersei for Sansa’s hand. So both Gaston and Littlefinger sought to take Belle and Sansa’s fathers out of the way, while they were also intending to marry them.

Yet when Belle and Sansa plead for their fathers’ freedom and lives, Joffrey, Littlefinger and Gaston couldn’t have cared less.

*The Beast = The Hound & Sandor Clegane:

Moving on, the message that Disney wants to transmit is that one shouldn’t be deceived by appearances, for beauty is found within. No one told Sansa this, if I remember correctly. The closest anyone got to it was Septa Mordane when she told her that all men were beautiful. Sansa remembered this during her wedding night, but for many reasons she couldn’t find this advice one bit helpful with Tyrion. Yet it does fit with the first two “love interests” she is associated with. Joffrey and Sandor Clegane, the Hound. We know that there was no love in the heart of the prince from the movie at the start, and there never was in Joffrey’s, but what about the man who looks more like the beast on the outside? What of the Hound?

Joffrey was the true beast in this tale as we all know, and can even be associated with Gaston later on, but with Sandor it is quite a different story. Sure, he and the Beast have many similarities, mostly at the start of the books and of the Disney film, for we are introduced to them in a manner that makes it clear many fear and respect them both, whether they be servants, commoners, peasants, Lannisters or old friends turned into clocks, candlesticks, or tea kettles.

Nonetheless, while the Beast hides and isolates himself in his castle, Sandor has to learn to live with his appearance, because he is lowborn, unlike the enchanted prince. And it also matters to them both the whole concept of “having people look at their faces”. Sandor demands Sansa to look at him more than once, and when we first see the Beast in the film he asks straightaway to Belle’s father if he has come to stare at the fabled beast.

The narrator of the movie at the beginning asks the audience, “Who could ever learn to love a beast?” Sandor may have asked himself this very question as he was growing up as well as when Sansa came into his life. When the little bird appeared on the picture, Sandor had given up hope that the dreams and illusions he yearned for as a kid—the child who wanted to play with a wooden knight before his brother put half of his face upon a brazier—much like the Beast had of ever finding someone who would be able to care about him before Belle went to his castle.

With time, Sansa and Belle come to see that the real monsters in their lives are the handsome men. Belle tells Gaston to his face after he confronts her about having feelings for the Beast, “He is not the monster, Gaston. You are.” Sansa also comes to identify who is the vicious man in her life as she is kept prisoner in King’s Landing. And after she has fled the capital, she remembers more than once that even if the Hound was fearsome, he was also kind and gentle with her. Both Sansa and Belle inspired a change in Sandor and the Beast.

Gaston asks the Beast in incredulity if he really believes Belle would want someone like him. While Sansa hasn’t yet been presented with someone asking her something like this, it is possible that Sandor could have wondered something similar at one point. Yet by the way Sansa wonders what the Tyrell cousins would think if they knew Sandor had kissed her; by the way she dreams of Tyrion transforming into Sandor in a marriage bed; and by the way the kiss she wants to pretend is from the Knight of Flowers becomes one she thinks the Hound gave her, I think that it isn’t too far-fetched that Sansa Stark could find herself wanting Sandor Clegane if the opportune moment presented itself.

And both male characters suffer a poignant meltdown towards the end. And curiously it’s during an armed conflict. For the Beast, it is when the mob attacks his castle, and he thinks he has lost Belle forever; and for Sandor it is the Battle of Blackwater.

The Beast’s spell is broken when he learns to love another and earns the love of a woman in return. Sansa and Sandor’s relationship had been described with so much care and subtle hints by Martin, and in the time they were together in King’s Landing it couldn’t really be called love, but Martin has made sure to remind us all that something is still there books after Sansa and Sandor last saw each other. The influence and impact they caused upon each other is strong, and in Sandor’s case it has helped him to break away from his own brand of Beast “spell,” and allowed him to start again in the Quiet Isle, if we believe in the gravedigger theory.

Near the end of the Disney adaptation of the classic tale, the Beast asks Belle if she is happy living with him in his castle. He asks her how she feels about it, and when he notices that though she is indeed, she would still like to go away and look for her father, the Beast doesn’t object to Belle leaving him, knowing that there is the risk, however small, that they could not see each other again. The Beast knows Belle has the right to choose what she should do, and doesn’t deny her this, making me think of the UnKiss moment.

Sandor tells Sansa what he intends to do, and in the end respects her choice. Though she doesn’t exactly refuse his offer, he doesn’t force her to go along with him. If these two were to reunite again, and if something romantic were to develop between them, I speculate with full certainty that though Sandor wouldn’t like it, he wouldn’t stop Sansa from marrying another if she decided that, because he cares more about her happiness than his own, just like the Beast and Belle. Now, can we say the same of the Beast when he was the Prince, or of Joff or Littlefinger? Taking Sandor out of the picture now, since Tyrion and Sansa are still married, I wonder if the Imp will give Sansa her freedom back if it comes to it in the end, when the High Septon and the others that mattered upon this decision have agreed upon the annulment.

To finish up, I would like to put some links below about some pretty images from the Disney film and the HBO series that show just how much Sansa and Sandor are Westeros’ Beauty & the Beast :)

1:

http://thenightisdar...age/28053137779

2:

http://thenightisdar...age/27696017255

3:

http://www.fanpop.co...-fanart?ir=true

4: http://25.media.tumb...hu9p7o1_500.png

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Caro99. this is why we have missed you so much. First, let me say that essay is beautifully written with very profound analysis of classic fairytale. Also, images are wonderful. Well done indeed.

Comments isn`t enough :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: .

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This post is very long overdue! In addition to Brashcandy asking me to do some research on Celtic myths (specifically The Morrigan and Cu Chulainn) some time ago, she also asked to me explore Sandor's trial/fight with Beric Dondarrion, and his apparent "pardon" by R'hllor.

I did manage, I think to find some intriguing tidbits, but I fear my thoughts might come across as a bit scattered. My findings probably culminate with more questions than answers as well. If I seem like I'm going OT, I offer my apologies.

Do any of my ramblings mean something? Maybe. Do crackpots abound? Definitely!

Caves/ Hidden Swords/Rubies/ Fire of the Gods/Hero's Journey

Caves:

In rereading the Arya chapter in ASOS which contained Sandor's trial, it struck me how many times the phrase "knights of the hollow hill" or "hollow hill" was mentioned. (It's generally mentioned whenever people bring up the Brotherhood). We know that the hollow hill is indeed a cave:

"The walls were equal parts stone and soil, with huge white roots twisting through them like a thousand slow pale snakes. People were emerging from between those roots as she watched; edging out from the shadows for a look at the captives, stepping from the mouths of pitch-black tunnels, popping out of crannies and crevices on all sides."

Doesn't that description sound similar to Bran's thoughts on Bloodraven's cave?

"The roots were everywhere, twisting through earth and stone, closing off some passages and holding up the roofs of others. All the color is gone, Bran realized suddenly. The world was black soil and white wood. The heart tree at Winterfell had roots as thick around as a giant’s legs, but these were even thicker. And Bran had never seen so many of them."

There is a book called "The Crystal Cave" by Mary Stewart, it's the first book of a quintet in a story about Merlin and King Arthur.

The book starts off with Myrddin Emrys, also known as Merlin, which is the Welsh form of the word "falcon". Emrys is also known as Ambrosius, or "Prince of Light". (I feel I found parallels to multiple characters in ASOIAF, including Jon Snow. There's talk of a comet in the sky, and Merlin is a bastard born of a Princess, but she refuses to name who his father is).

Anyway, part of the summary of the story states: "Merlin is captured by Vortigern who is attempting to build a fortress at Dinas Emrys - but each night the newly built walls collapse. The king's mystics say the fort will only be built when a child with no father is sacrificed and his blood spilt on the ground. Vortigern plans to use Merlin as the sacrifice. Merlin realizes that the fort's foundation is unstable due to the caves below ground, but he attributes the problems to dragons beneath the ground. "

This really intrigued me as I know many people on the board have speculated just what might be in some of those caves, and dragons were one of the things that were mentioned.

The second book in the series is called "The Hollow Hills".

Summarizing the story: "Merlin arranges for Arthur 's upbringing. And he learns that Magnus Maximus possessed an especially beautiful and well-made sword, which was taken back to Britain after his death. Inspired by a dream which he believes to be prophetic, Merlin returns to the North in search of this sword. In Wales, Merlin finds the sword in a deserted temple of Mithras hidden beneath the altar with a spearhead and a chalice. He takes only the sword."

"In order to hide from overly curious people, Merlin becomes a hermit in an obscure shrine, providing healing to the injured and advice to the insecure. He commits himself to no religion, but "allows" whatever god is willing to receive the offerings at the shrine.

Years later out on a ride, Arthur discovers Magnus Maximus' sword—who is his ancestor and Merlin's—hidden in a cave on an island in the center of a lake."

Side note: The Island, I presume we are to think of as Avalon: "Avalon or Ynys Afallon in Welsh-- probably comes from the Welsh word afal, meaning apple. Geoffrey of Monmouth called it in Latin Insula Avallonis in the Historia. In the later Vita Merlini he called it Insula Pomorum the "isle of apples". It is also possible that the tradition of an "apple" island among the British was influenced by Irish legends concerning the otherworld island home of Manannán mac Lir and Lugh, Emain Ablach (also the Old Irish poetic name for the Isle of Man), where Ablach means "Having Apple Trees" – derived from Old Irish aball ("apple")—and is similar to the Middle Welsh name Afallach, which was used to replace the name Avalon in medieval Welsh translations of French and Latin Arthurian tales).

Gee, didn't we have a whole discussion about apples not too long ago? :rolleyes: ;)

Back on track....so we have talk of caves yet again, as well as hollow hills. They seem to be special, sacred places--places that might hold mystical "powers" or meanings.

Sandor comes to mind, when it states "committing himself to no religion, but allowing whatever god is willing to receive offerings at the shrine"--the offering being himself (in a manner of speaking).....the first shrine being the Hollow Hill-- as he's fought Dondarrion and been "pardoned" by R'hllor. We assume he grew up around the Faith of the Seven to a degree (Sandor is a Westerman by birth) and he's now in the hands of the Elder Brother.

The Elder Brother is rumored a fantastic healer and the Quiet Isle is an island in the middle of the Trident. He could also be said to sound like Merlin in the book the Hollow Hills--providing healing to the sick and advice to the insecure. Also interesting is him telling Brienne how he was injured at the Battle of the Trident:

"I took an arrow through the thigh and another through the foot, and my horse was killed from under me, yet I fought on."

From Ayra's chapter in ASOS, at the Inn:

"Polliver and the Tickler had driven the Hound into a corner behind a bench, and one of them had given him an ugly red gash on his upper thigh to go with his other wounds."

(For more info about the EB as a healer, here is a link to a post I wrote regarding "Chiron the Wounded Healer"):

http://asoiaf.wester...40#entry3550750

The Elder Brothers quarters, are located inside a cave, thus potentially being yet another shrine....

Quoted from AFFC:

' "Brother Narbert led the visitors around a chestnut tree to a wooden door set in the side of the hill.

“A cave with a door?” Ser Hyle said, surprised.

Septon Meribald smiled. “It is called the Hermit’s Hole. The first holy man to find his way here lived therein, and worked such wonders that others came to join him. That was two thousand years ago, they say. The door came somewhat later.”

Perhaps two thousand years ago the Hermit’s Hole had been a damp, dark place, floored with dirt and echoing to the sounds of dripping water, but no longer. '

And interesting enough, we also know this: (The Elder Brother speaking to Brienne and Co.)

"We have found silver cups and iron pots, sacks of wool and bolts of silk, rusted helms and shining swords... aye, and rubies.”

That interested Ser Hyle.

“Rhaegar’s rubies?”

“It may be. Who can say? The battle was long leagues from here, but the river is tireless and patient. Six have been found. We are all waiting for the seventh.”

First: Shining swords. Could he mean an actual sword (à la: "Excalibur")? Maybe.

But perhaps The Elder Brother is talking about Sandor himself. Does he see something in Sandor that could equate to a "shining sword"? Does he have a new purpose for him?

By the time Arya abandoned him near the Trident, Sandor was a broken man...(or for discussions sake) a broken sword.

When a sword is forged, it's done so in intense heat, the metal beaten down and folded over itself many, many times. The sword is tempered, then sharpened and finished/polished.

The whole swordmaking process could be a metaphor for the transformation Sandor must undergo, in order to come out the other side as a better man. The culmination of his life experience is was what led him to the point he's at now. Living as "The Hound" just doesn't cut it anymore, and it's no longer possible for him to continue in that vein. He must be "remade" into something else--something stronger--hence the rebirth theory.

I know this next bit conflicts with what the Elder Brother seems to want for his Gravedigger, stating that the Hound is dead, and Sandor is at rest. But remember this bit from yet another Arya chapter in ASOS, when she and Sandor were traveling to the Red Wedding:

"The big bad-tempered courser wore neither armor, barding, nor harness, and the Hound himself was garbed in splotchy green roughspun and a soot-grey mantle with a hood that swallowed his head. So long as he kept his eyes down you could not see his face, only the whites of his eyes peering out. He looked like some down-at-heels farmer. A big farmer, though. And under the roughspun was boiled leather and oiled mail, Arya knew."

And this is from one of Brienne's chapters in AFFC when she and her companions arrived at the Quiet Isle:

"Three men were waiting for them as they clambered up the broken stones that ringed the isle’s shoreline. They were clad in the brown-and-dun robes of brothers, with wide bell sleeves and pointed cowls. Two had wound lengths of wool about the lower halves of their faces as well, so all that could be seen of them were their eyes."

I think the snippet from Arya's chapter is another foreshadowing/metaphor signaling that our roughspun wearing Gravedigger, might still have some need for a sword in the future. (How that might come about, if it does, still remains to be seen. I know we've touched on it here before, using various scenarios).

Also remember what Petyr Baelish said to Sansa about the hidden dagger you don't see as being the most dangerous one.

Or rather, in this case--that "dagger" might be wearing boiled leather and oiled mail, hidden under a roughspun robe. ;)

This metamorphosis also harkens back to "The Hero's Journey". In the past I stated that Sandor might get a chance to become something like the knight he wanted to be when he was a child. Quite ironically, I'm going to use the book, "The Call of the Wild" as an example:

"Buck, who is the hero, takes a journey, is transformed, and achieves an apotheosis. The format of the story is distinctly divided into four parts. In the first part Buck experiences violence and struggles for survival; in the second part he proves himself a leader of the pack; the third part brings him to his death (symbolically and almost literally); and in the fourth and final part he undergoes rebirth..."

We can see phases of the Hounds life in the above as well. The struggle to survive while a young child with an abusive brother, then growing and becoming a feared and accomplished swordsman, the "death of the Hound", and the coming "rebirth", which we assume will take place on the QI.

Also, not to mention that at the end of "The Call of the Wild", Buck goes off with the wolves. :D :rolleyes:

For more about my thoughts on The Hound, his transformation and heroes, here is a link to two older posts of mine -"Myths, Love, Dogs and Heroes":

http://asoiaf.wester...20#entry3691990

http://asoiaf.wester...80#entry3697844

Second: Rubies. I have long been of the thought that "rubies" don't necessarily relate to stones, but to people. And that the seventh ruby is not a ruby, but a person. If this is true then who are the rest of the "rubies"? Who else is on the Quiet Isle (if anyone), in addition to Sandor? Also, was Sandor the sixth "ruby" they found? I am tending to think so, unless they are waiting for his complete "turn-around", thus becoming the seventh one instead.

Something to think about: I find it highly ironic there were seven men that traveled with Ned Stark to the Tower of Joy, on that one fateful day. (Eddard Stark, William Dustin, Howland Reed, Martyn Cassel, Theo Wull and Ser Mark Rhyswell). Ned Stark and Howland Reed were the only survivors, Ned buried the dead, in cairns.

Could this mean that Sandor will be taking a journey along with some other characters? What journey might that be? Something similar to the importance of what happened at the Tower of Joy?

(I'm sure there are others, but off the top of my head I can come up with the names of five other people whom he might be in close proximity to/has chance of meeting if he leaves the QI: Brienne, Jaime, Stoneheart, Pod, Hyle Hunt--though we're not sure what happened to Pod or Hyle).

But rubies are associated with R'hllor, "The Lord of Light" (Melisandre wears one around her neck)--yet the Quiet Isle is of the Faith of the Seven.

Regarding R'hllor, I want to draw an interesting parallel to Agni, a Hindu god:

"Agni is a Hindu deity, one of the most important of the Vedic gods. He is the god of fire and the acceptor of sacrifices. The sacrifices made to Agni go to the deities because Agni is a messenger from and to the other gods. Agni has three forms: fire, lightning and the sun."

As to those three forms, in relation to Sandor's trial; perhaps fire could relate to Beric Dondarrion's flaming sword; the sun might be the fire he and Sandor were circling as they fought (my theory on this is that our Earth orbits the sun.LOL). And as for lightning, Beric was known as "The Lightning Lord".

"Agni also had the power to impart immortality on mortals, as well as remove all sins at the time of one's death. Agni is the fire of sacrifice, and thus a mediator between man and the gods".

" His attributes are an axe, a torch, prayer beads and a flaming spear. Agni is represented as red and two-faced (reminds me of poor Sandor's burnt face and his two "personalities"-- Sandor/The Hound), suggesting both his destructive and his beneficent qualities, and with black eyes and hair. Seven rays of light emanate from his body..."

As to those seven rays of light...we all know seven is an important number in many religions. As stated in the past, certain aspects of The Faith of the Seven bring to mind Christianity:

"In early Christian iconography, the dove of the Holy Ghost is often shown with an emanation of seven rays, as is the image of the Madonna, often in conjunction with a dove or doves. The Monastery of St. Catherine on Mount Sinai, , shows the Transfiguration of Christ in the apse mosaic, with "seven rays of light shining from the luminous body of Christ over the apostles Peter, James and John." In the present day Byzantine-style St. Louis Cathedral in Missouri, the center of the sanctuary has an engraved circle with many symbols of the Holy Trinity. The inscription reads: "Radiating from this symbol are seven rays of light representing the seven gifts of the Holy Ghost."

The seven gifts of the Holy Ghost are: wisdom, understanding, wonder and awe, right judgment, knowledge, courage, and reverence.

Which in the Faith of the Seven probably point to: The Crone, Mother, Maiden, Father, Smith, Warrior, Stranger.

I also found this passage (a conversation between Brienne and Thoros, when she was captured by the BwB) from AFFC intriguing:

“And justice? Can that be found in caves?”

“Justice.” Thoros smiled wanly. “I remember justice. It had a pleasant taste. Justice was what we were about when Beric led us, or so we told ourselves. We were king’s men, knights, and heroes... but some knights are dark and full of terror, my lady. War makes monsters of us all.”

“Are you saying you are monsters?”

“I am saying we are human. You are not the only one with wounds, Lady Brienne. Some of my brothers were good men when this began. Some were... less good, shall we say? Though there are those who say it does not matter how a man begins, but only how he ends. I suppose it is the same for women.”

I like how Thoros takes a spin on the bit rigth before Sandor's trial:

“For the night is dark,” the others chanted, Harwin and Anguy loud as all the rest, “and full of terrors.”

“This cave is dark too,” said the Hound, “but I’m the terror here....."

And though the underlined quote above can really apply to anybody in the story (take Jaime or Theon for example), I think it could also speak of something for our Gravedigger. Remember how badly Arya wanted Sandor to die? That she was so enraged Beric didn't kill him, that she ran at Sandor with a knife herself? Perhaps in a way, justice was served that day in the hollow hill. Digging those graves is a penance for all the lives he's taken over the years. When he's done, I think he's going to find a new purpose in life......

I 'd like to wrap on a slightly different note and go back to the book, "The Crystal Cave". As I stated earlier, I thought there were definitely parallels to Jon Snow's story arc, and I know some people on the board have mentioned that Jon and Sansa have some similarities in their literary journey. In regard to Sansa, I found it interesting the chapters in the book are as thus. (Coincidence? I tend to think not):

"The Dove"

"The Falcon"

"The Wolf"

"The Red Dragon"

"The Coming of the Bear"

The chapters could correlate to Sansa's personal journey and growth in the story--starting out as the "Dove", becoming the "Falcon" in the Eyrie, leaving the Eyrie and changing to a "Wolf" (remember she heard the wind howling like wolf as she came down the mountain?). We still need to find out what the other two chapters might mean.

But I tend to think the chapters probably relate to the men that Sansa has encountered/will encounter in her story.

Again, Sansa herself is "The Dove", at the beginning of the story.

"The Falcon" could be either (or both) Sweetrobin and Harry the Heir--"The Young Falcon". We've heard a little about Harry, but we've not seen him just yet.

"The Wolf" is Petyr Baelish: "The Christian symbolism where the wolf represents the devil, or evil, being after the "sheep" (a.k.a. Sansa)who are the living faithful, is found frequently in western literature. The Bible contains 13 references to wolves, usually as metaphors for greed and destructiveness.

The wolf is repeatedly mentioned in the scriptures as an enemy of flocks: a metaphor for evil men with a lust for power and dishonest gain, as well as a metaphor for Satan preying on innocent God-fearing Christians, contrasted with the shepherd Jesus who keeps his flock safe."

Even more ironic is that there are sheep on the Fingers and Petyr refers to himself as "The Lord of Sheepshit".

"The Red Dragon": Not too sure about this one. On one hand it could be referring to Aegon/ Young Griff. (Yes, I know many people feel he's not a real Targ). We've not seen him in relation to Sansa's story--though we have speculated on things that might happen with the two of them. On the other hand perhaps this points to Tyrion, again--some people seem to think he's half Targ--that his mother was raped by the Mad King.

"The Coming of the Bear": Sandor came to mind--I recall our discussions on "The Bear and the Maiden Fair". And gee, don't bears hibernate in caves? ;)

Okay.....I'm leaving now! :laugh: :leaving:

ETA: Caro! Wonderful to see you back, and I agree with Mladen--nicely done! :)

Edit #2: formatting/spelling

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@Queen of Winter, this was...well, great, many thoughts, many ideas, but well built up. But, in order for me to make sense, I`ll have to divide it piece by piece, so you can understand me.

From the ashes a fire shall be woken,

A light from the shadows shall spring;

Renewed shall be blade that was broken,

The crownless again shall be king.

I waited for so long to use this quote, and thank you for allowing me to. I have to say that idea of Sandor being renewed sword is poetically beautiful and has some deep roots not just in mythology than in everything we know about his psychology. I hope this Tolkien quote can serve in giving adequate light on whole `resurected sword` idea. Also, notice how Sansa is the only Queen without a crown (Robb and Jeyne had their crowns, Cersei, Joffrey, Tommen, Margaery, Stannis, Renly, Balon, all of them).

I`ll discuss the rubies and caves later, since I have to study it more...

Again, wonderful essay, @QOW, quite enjoyable reading...thank you...

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This post is very long overdue! In addition to Brashcandy asking me to do some research on Celtic myths (specifically The Morrigan and Cu Chulainn) some time ago, she also asked to me explore Sandor's trial/fight with Beric Dondarrion, and his apparent "pardon" by R'hllor.

I did manage, I think to find some intriguing tidbits, but I fear my thoughts might come across as a bit scattered. My findings probably culminate with more questions than answers as well. If I seem like I'm going OT, I offer my apologies.

Do any of my ramblings mean something? Maybe. Do crackpots abound? Definitely!

Caves/ Hidden Swords/Rubies/ Fire of the Gods/Hero's Journey

Caves:

In rereading the Arya chapter in ASOS which contained Sandor's trial, it struck me how many times the phrase "knights of the hollow hill" or "hollow hill" was mentioned. (It's generally mentioned whenever people bring up the Brotherhood). We know that the hollow hill is indeed a cave:

"The walls were equal parts stone and soil, with huge white roots twisting through them like a thousand slow pale snakes. People were emerging from between those roots as she watched; edging out from the shadows for a look at the captives, stepping from the mouths of pitch-black tunnels, popping out of crannies and crevices on all sides."

Doesn't that description sound similar to Bran's thoughts on Bloodraven's cave?

"The roots were everywhere, twisting through earth and stone, closing off some passages and holding up the roofs of others. All the color is gone, Bran realized suddenly. The world was black soil and white wood. The heart tree at Winterfell had roots as thick around as a giant’s legs, but these were even thicker. And Bran had never seen so many of them."

There is a book called "The Crystal Cave" by Mary Stewart, it's the first book of a quintet in a story about Merlin and King Arthur.

The book starts off with Myrddin Emrys, also known as Merlin, which is the Welsh form of the word "falcon". Emrys is also known as Ambrosius, or "Prince of Light". (I feel I found parallels to multiple characters in ASOIAF, including Jon Snow. There's talk of a comet in the sky, and Merlin is a bastard born of a Princess, but she refuses to name who his father is).

Anyway, part of the summary of the story states: "Merlin is captured by Vortigern who is attempting to build a fortress at Dinas Emrys - but each night the newly built walls collapse. The king's mystics say the fort will only be built when a child with no father is sacrificed and his blood spilt on the ground. Vortigern plans to use Merlin as the sacrifice. Merlin realizes that the fort's foundation is unstable due to the caves below ground, but he attributes the problems to dragons beneath the ground. "

This really intrigued me as I know many people on the board have speculated just what might be in some of those caves, and dragons were one of the things that were mentioned.

The second book in the series is called "The Hollow Hills".

Summarizing the story: "Merlin arranges for Arthur 's upbringing. And he learns that Magnus Maximus possessed an especially beautiful and well-made sword, which was taken back to Britain after his death. Inspired by a dream which he believes to be prophetic, Merlin returns to the North in search of this sword. In Wales, Merlin finds the sword in a deserted temple of Mithras hidden beneath the altar with a spearhead and a chalice. He takes only the sword."

"In order to hide from overly curious people, Merlin becomes a hermit in an obscure shrine, providing healing to the injured and advice to the insecure. He commits himself to no religion, but "allows" whatever god is willing to receive the offerings at the shrine.

Years later out on a ride, Arthur discovers Magnus Maximus' sword—who is his ancestor and Merlin's—hidden in a cave on an island in the center of a lake."

Side note: The Island, I presume we are to think of as Avalon: "Avalon or Ynys Afallon in Welsh-- probably comes from the Welsh word afal, meaning apple. Geoffrey of Monmouth called it in Latin Insula Avallonis in the Historia. In the later Vita Merlini he called it Insula Pomorum the "isle of apples". It is also possible that the tradition of an "apple" island among the British was influenced by Irish legends concerning the otherworld island home of Manannán mac Lir and Lugh, Emain Ablach (also the Old Irish poetic name for the Isle of Man), where Ablach means "Having Apple Trees" – derived from Old Irish aball ("apple")—and is similar to the Middle Welsh name Afallach, which was used to replace the name Avalon in medieval Welsh translations of French and Latin Arthurian tales).

Gee, didn't we have a whole discussion about apples not too long ago? :rolleyes: ;)

Back on track....so we have talk of caves yet again, as well as hollow hills. They seem to be special, sacred places--places that might hold mystical "powers" or meanings.

Sandor comes to mind, when it states "committing himself to no religion, but allowing whatever god is willing to receive offerings at the shrine"--the offering being himself (in a manner of speaking).....the first shrine being the Hollow Hill-- as he's fought Dondarrion and been "pardoned" by R'hllor. We assume he grew up around the Faith of the Seven to a degree (Sandor is a Westerman by birth) and he's now in the hands of the Elder Brother.

The Elder Brother is rumored a fantastic healer and the Quiet Isle is an island in the middle of the Trident. He could also be said to sound like Merlin in the book the Hollow Hills--providing healing to the sick and advice to the insecure. Also interesting is him telling Brienne how he was injured at the Battle of the Trident:

"I took an arrow through the thigh and another through the foot, and my horse was killed from under me, yet I fought on."

From Ayra's chapter in ASOS, at the Inn:

"Polliver and the Tickler had driven the Hound into a corner behind a bench, and one of them had given him an ugly red gash on his upper thigh to go with his other wounds."

(For more info about the EB as a healer, here is a link to a post I wrote regarding "Chiron the Wounded Healer"):

http://asoiaf.wester...40#entry3550750

The Elder Brothers quarters, are located inside a cave, thus potentially being yet another shrine....

Quoted from AFFC:

' "Brother Narbert led the visitors around a chestnut tree to a wooden door set in the side of the hill.

“A cave with a door?” Ser Hyle said, surprised.

Septon Meribald smiled. “It is called the Hermit’s Hole. The first holy man to find his way here lived therein, and worked such wonders that others came to join him. That was two thousand years ago, they say. The door came somewhat later.”

Perhaps two thousand years ago the Hermit’s Hole had been a damp, dark place, floored with dirt and echoing to the sounds of dripping water, but no longer. '

And interesting enough, we also know this: (The Elder Brother speaking to Brienne and Co.)

"We have found silver cups and iron pots, sacks of wool and bolts of silk, rusted helms and shining swords... aye, and rubies.”

That interested Ser Hyle.

“Rhaegar’s rubies?”

“It may be. Who can say? The battle was long leagues from here, but the river is tireless and patient. Six have been found. We are all waiting for the seventh.”

First: Shining swords. Could he mean an actual sword (à la: "Excalibur")? Maybe.

But perhaps The Elder Brother is talking about Sandor himself. Does he see something in Sandor that could equate to a "shining sword"? Does he have a new purpose for him?

By the time Arya abandoned him near the Trident, Sandor was a broken man...(or for discussions sake) a broken sword.

When a sword is forged, it's done so in intense heat, the metal beaten down and folded over itself many, many times. The sword is tempered, then sharpened and finished/polished.

The whole swordmaking process could be a metaphor for the transformation Sandor must undergo, in order to come out the other side as a better man. The culmination of his life experience is was what led him to the point he's at now. Living as "The Hound" just doesn't cut it anymore, and it's no longer possible for him to continue in that vein. He must be "remade" into something else--something stronger--hence the rebirth theory.

I know this next bit conflicts with what the Elder Brother seems to want for his Gravedigger, stating that the Hound is dead, and Sandor is at rest. But remember this bit from yet another Arya chapter in ASOS, when she and Sandor were traveling to the Red Wedding:

"The big bad-tempered courser wore neither armor, barding, nor harness, and the Hound himself was garbed in splotchy green roughspun and a soot-grey mantle with a hood that swallowed his head. So long as he kept his eyes down you could not see his face, only the whites of his eyes peering out. He looked like some down-at-heels farmer. A big farmer, though. And under the roughspun was boiled leather and oiled mail, Arya knew."

And this is from one of Brienne's chapters in AFFC when she and her companions arrived at the Quiet Isle:

"Three men were waiting for them as they clambered up the broken stones that ringed the isle’s shoreline. They were clad in the brown-and-dun robes of brothers, with wide bell sleeves and pointed cowls. Two had wound lengths of wool about the lower halves of their faces as well, so all that could be seen of them were their eyes."

I think the snippet from Arya's chapter is another foreshadowing/metaphor signaling that our roughspun wearing Gravedigger, might still have some need for a sword in the future. (How that might come about, if it does, still remains to be seen. I know we've touched on it here before, using various scenarios).

Also remember what Petyr Baelish said to Sansa about the hidden dagger you don't see as being the most dangerous one.

Or rather, in this case--that "dagger" might be wearing boiled leather and oiled mail, hidden under a roughspun robe. ;)

This metamorphosis also harkens back to "The Hero's Journey". In the past I stated that Sandor might get a chance to become something like the knight he wanted to be when he was a child. Quite ironically, I'm going to use the book, "The Call of the Wild" as an example:

"Buck, who is the hero, takes a journey, is transformed, and achieves an apotheosis. The format of the story is distinctly divided into four parts. In the first part Buck experiences violence and struggles for survival; in the second part he proves himself a leader of the pack; the third part brings him to his death (symbolically and almost literally); and in the fourth and final part he undergoes rebirth..."

We can see phases of the Hounds life in the above as well. The struggle to survive while a young child with an abusive brother, then growing and becoming a feared and accomplished swordsman, the "death of the Hound", and the coming "rebirth", which we assume will take place on the QI.

Also, not to mention that at the end of "The Call of the Wild", Buck goes off with the wolves. :D :rolleyes:

For more about my thoughts on The Hound, his transformation and heroes, here is a link to two older posts of mine -"Myths, Love, Dogs and Heroes":

http://asoiaf.wester...20#entry3691990

http://asoiaf.wester...80#entry3697844

Second: Rubies. I have long been of the thought that "rubies" don't necessarily relate to stones, but to people. And that the seventh ruby is not a ruby, but a person. If this is true then who are the rest of the "rubies"? Who else is on the Quiet Isle (if anyone), in addition to Sandor? Also, was Sandor the sixth "ruby" they found? I am tending to think so, unless they are waiting for his complete "turn-around", thus becoming the seventh one instead.

Something to think about: I find it highly ironic there were seven men that traveled with Ned Stark to the Tower of Joy, on that one fateful day. (Eddard Stark, William Dustin, Howland Reed, Martyn Cassel, Theo Wull and Ser Mark Rhyswell). Ned Stark and Howland Reed were the only survivors, Ned buried the dead, in cairns.

Could this mean that Sandor will be taking a journey along with some other characters? What journey might that be? Something similar to the importance of what happened at the Tower of Joy?

(I'm sure there are others, but off the top of my head I can come up with the names of five other people whom he might be in close proximity to/has chance of meeting if he leaves the QI: Brienne, Jaime, Stoneheart, Pod, Hyle Hunt--though we're not sure what happened to Pod or Hyle).

But rubies are associated with R'hllor, "The Lord of Light" (Melisandre wears one around her neck)--yet the Quiet Isle is of the Faith of the Seven.

Regarding R'hllor, I want to draw an interesting parallel to Agni, a Hindu god:

"Agni is a Hindu deity, one of the most important of the Vedic gods. He is the god of fire and the acceptor of sacrifices. The sacrifices made to Agni go to the deities because Agni is a messenger from and to the other gods. Agni has three forms: fire, lightning and the sun."

As to those three forms, in relation to Sandor's trial; perhaps fire could relate to Beric Dondarrion's flaming sword; the sun might be the fire he and Sandor were circling as they fought (my theory on this is that our Earth orbits the sun.LOL). And as for lightening, Beric was known as "The Lightening Lord".

"Agni also had the power to impart immortality on mortals, as well as remove all sins at the time of one's death. Agni is the fire of sacrifice, and thus a mediator between man and the gods".

" His attributes are an axe, a torch, prayer beads and a flaming spear. Agni is represented as red and two-faced (reminds me of poor Sandor's burnt face and his two "personalities"-- Sandor/The Hound), suggesting both his destructive and his beneficent qualities, and with black eyes and hair. Seven rays of light emanate from his body..."

As to those seven rays of light...we all know seven is an important number in many religions. As stated in the past, certain aspects of The Faith of the Seven bring to mind Christianity:

"In early Christian iconography, the dove of the Holy Ghost is often shown with an emanation of seven rays, as is the image of the Madonna, often in conjunction with a dove or doves. The Monastery of St. Catherine on Mount Sinai, , shows the Transfiguration of Christ in the apse mosaic, with "seven rays of light shining from the luminous body of Christ over the apostles Peter, James and John." In the present day Byzantine-style St. Louis Cathedral in Missouri, the center of the sanctuary has an engraved circle with many symbols of the Holy Trinity. The inscription reads: "Radiating from this symbol are seven rays of light representing the seven gifts of the Holy Ghost."

The seven gifts of the Holy Ghost are: wisdom, understanding, wonder and awe, right judgment, knowledge, courage, and reverence.

Which in the Faith of the Seven probably point to: The Crone, Mother, Maiden, Father, Smith, Warrior, Stranger.

I also found this passage (a conversation between Brienne and Thoros, when she was captured by the BwB) from AFFC intriguing:

“And justice? Can that be found in caves?”

“Justice.” Thoros smiled wanly. “I remember justice. It had a pleasant taste. Justice was what we were about when Beric led us, or so we told ourselves. We were king’s men, knights, and heroes... but some knights are dark and full of terror, my lady. War makes monsters of us all.”

“Are you saying you are monsters?”

“I am saying we are human. You are not the only one with wounds, Lady Brienne. Some of my brothers were good men when this began. Some were... less good, shall we say? Though there are those who say it does not matter how a man begins, but only how he ends. I suppose it is the same for women.”

I like how Thoros takes a spin on the bit rigth before Sandor's trial:

“For the night is dark,” the others chanted, Harwin and Anguy loud as all the rest, “and full of terrors.”

“This cave is dark too,” said the Hound, “but I’m the terror here....."

And though the underlined quote above can really apply to anybody in the story (take Jaime or Theon for example), I think it could also speak of something for our Gravedigger. Remember how badly Arya wanted Sandor to die? That she was so enraged Beric didn't kill him, that she ran at Sandor with a knife herself? Perhaps in a way, justice was served that day in the hollow hill. Digging those graves is a penance for all the lives he's taken over the years. When he's done, I think he's going to find a new purpose in life......

I 'd like to wrap on a slightly different note and go back to the book, "The Crystal Cave". As I stated earlier, I thought there were definitely parallels to Jon Snow's story arc, and I know some people on the board have mentioned that Jon and Sansa have some similarities in their literary journey. In regard to Sansa, I found it interesting the chapters in the book are as thus. (Coincidence? I tend to think not):

"The Dove"

"The Falcon"

"The Wolf"

"The Red Dragon"

"The Coming of the Bear"

The chapters could correlate to Sansa's personal journey and growth in the story--starting out as the "Dove", becoming the "Falcon" in the Eyrie, leaving the Eyrie and changing to a "Wolf" (remember she heard the wind howling like wolf as she came down the mountain?). We still need to find out what the other two chapters might mean.

But I tend to think the chapters probably relate to the men that Sansa has encountered/will encounter in her story.

Again, Sansa herself is "The Dove", at the beginning of the story.

"The Falcon" could be either (or both) Sweetrobin and Harry the Heir--"The Young Falcon". We've heard a little about Harry, but we've not seen him just yet.

"The Wolf" is Petyr Baelish: "The Christian symbolism where the wolf represents the devil, or evil, being after the "sheep" (a.k.a. Sansa)who are the living faithful, is found frequently in western literature. The Bible contains 13 references to wolves, usually as metaphors for greed and destructiveness.

The wolf is repeatedly mentioned in the scriptures as an enemy of flocks: a metaphor for evil men with a lust for power and dishonest gain, as well as a metaphor for Satan preying on innocent God-fearing Christians, contrasted with the shepherd Jesus who keeps his flock safe."

Even more ironic is that there are sheep on the Fingers and Petyr refers to himself as "The Lord of Sheepshit".

"The Red Dragon": Not too sure about this one. On one hand it could be referring to Aegon/ Young Griff. (Yes, I know many people feel he's not a real Targ). We've not seen him in relation to Sansa's story--though we have speculated on things that might happen with the two of them. On the other hand perhaps this points to Tyrion, again--some people seem to think he's half Targ--that his mother was raped by the Mad King.

"The Coming of the Bear": Sandor came to mind--I recall our discussions on "The Bear and the Maiden Fair". And gee, don't bears hibernate in caves? ;)

Okay.....I'm leaving now! :laugh: :leaving:

ETA: Caro! Wonderful to see you back, and I agree with Mladen--nicely done! :)

Quite Briliant. As far as the dragon, yeah, I think she gets hitched to Aegon/Young Griff but Sandor seems the one she might end up with or one will be with the other when they die and the story ends.

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She reached out and touched Sansa's hair, brushing it lightly away from her neck.

That was from ACoK after Cersei tells Sansa that if KL falls, she will have Sansa executed. I think this could foreshadow that either Cersei will send Robert Strong to kill Sansa, or she will try to have Sansa executed in KL.

Hopefully if it is the latter, the QoT will be there, to confess to avoid having an innocent girl's death on her conscience.

@Queen of Winter, good post

Ever thought of posting things like that in Calling All Arthurian Scholars thread?

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