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brashcandy

From Pawn to Player: Rethinking Sansa XVIII

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QoW - you continue to unearth such intriguing possibilities and analyses! That last bit inadvertently hits on a little essay I'm planning, so thank you for the reference!

I really liked your point about the rubies referring to people, and I wonder indeed who else may have found shelter on the QI or will do so in the future. No need for me to mention here the women's cottages ;)

IIRC, Cersei calls Sansa little dove in the show too. Loved the parallel with the Hound wearing those roughspun cloaks, but still remaining dangerous underneath.

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@Queen of Winter, this was...well, great, many thoughts, many ideas, but well built up. But, in order for me to make sense, I`ll have to divide it piece by piece, so you can understand me.

I waited for so long to use this quote, and thank you for allowing me to. I have to say that idea of Sandor being renewed sword is poetically beautiful and has some deep roots not just in mythology than in everything we know about his psychology. I hope this Tolkien quote can serve in giving adeuate light on whole `resurected sword` idea. Also, notice how Sansa is the only Queen without a crown (Robb and Jeyne had their crowns, Cersei, Joffrey, Tommen, Margaery, Stannis, Renly, Balon, all of them).

I`ll discuss the rubies and caves later, since I have to study it more...

Again, wonderful essay, @QOW, quite enjoyable reading...thank you...

Thank you , Mladen. I look forward to hearing your thoughts once you've put them together. It's funny you mentioned the Tolkien reference because I was thinking of the Sword of Elendil (Narsil) when writing that bit. And yes, I agree--the psychology behind a "broken sword" being remade is poetically beautiful. :)

Quite Briliant. As far as the dragon, yeah, I think she gets hitched to Aegon/Young Griff but Sandor seems the one she might end up with or one will be with the other when they die and the story ends.

Glad you liked it Lord Damian. I'm still not sure where the Red Dragon thing is going, we can only wait and see right?

@Queen of Winter, good post

Ever thought of posting things like that in Calling All Arthurian Scholars thread?

Thanks, Fire Eater. And I had no idea there was such a thread!?

QoW - you continue to unearth such intriguing possibilities and analyses! That last bit inadvertently hits on a little essay I'm planning, so thank you for the reference!

Really? *raises interested eyebrows* Hmmmmm.......feel free to quote me if you want! :)

I really liked your point about the rubies referring to people, and I wonder indeed who else may have found shelter on the QI or will do so in the future. No need for me to mention here the women's cottages ;)

I tell you, that EB --he speaks in riddles! ;)

(Yes, curious to see who might be there....or who might come along :rolleyes: . Just as long as it's not Rhaegar playing that harp! :P )

IIRC, Cersei calls Sansa little dove in the show too. Loved the parallel with the Hound wearing those roughspun cloaks, but still remaining dangerous underneath.

Thanks, that was one of my favorite parallels too. B)

And if you note there is the "duality" issue again. We see the Hound wearing roughspun in Arya's chapter and later on the QI, we assume when digging graves, that's probably what he's wearing.....

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Very interesting posts Caro99 and Queen of Winter :thumbsup:.

Many would think that Tyrion could be the Beast to Sansa’s Belle, but I associate the Imp more with Gaston too. When Belle asks Gaston, “What do you know about my dreams?” as he is proposing to her, I asked myself, “What does Tyrion really know about Sansa?” Gaston wanted a wife who would rub his feet and give him strong sons and cook for him. Tyrion wanted a wife who would give him an heir one day, as well as bring him her sorrows and her joys. Tyrion never stops to consider what Sansa would want.

I think the Joffrey, Littlefinger and Gaston comparison is smart. But I wouldn’t put Tyrion in the same category. Like the others, he wants Sansa to play a special role as you point out. But he doesn’t hurt her relatives or Sansa herself when reality doesn’t match his fantasy.

Near the end of the Disney adaptation of the classic tale, the Beast asks Belle if she is happy living with him in his castle. He asks her how she feels about it, and when he notices that though she is indeed, she would still like to go away and look for her father, the Beast doesn’t object to Belle leaving him, knowing that there is the risk, however small, that they could not see each other again. The Beast knows Belle has the right to choose what she should do, and doesn’t deny her this, making me think of the UnKiss moment.

That’s a clever point and I agree with you on this.

In rereading the Arya chapter in ASOS which contained Sandor's trial, it struck me how many times the phrase "knights of the hollow hill" or "hollow hill" was mentioned. (It's generally mentioned whenever people bring up the Brotherhood). We know that the hollow hill is indeed a cave:

Your post truly inspired me Queen of Winter.

I may be wrong but it seems to me that many rites of passage take place in caves and Sandor’s trial could be considered as such. Because of the darkness, caves are often places of ignorance (see Plato). In our case, the cave is illuminated by fire and a trial by combat takes place there. I like the contradictory symbols here: this cave should be a place of justice and truth. Yet Sandor is still “absolved” of Mycah’s death and the cave sort of retains the ignorance symbolism.

And here is what I've found about rubies. The bishop Marbodus (1035-1123) wrote a book called Liber de lapidibus about mythological gem-lore. Marbodus states that rubies are the unique eyes that dragons and wyverns wear on their forehead. It's rather fitting for a Targaryen prince, isn’t it? Rubies are also the gems of lovers and a symbol of sexual desire (R+L) because of their colour (the same as house Targaryen).

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Aww thank you SO very very much to everyone who liked the B&B essay! So happy to read what you thought of it! I miss you all too :grouphug: I keep updated with this thread almost every day though as a lurker (';

& I agree, Mahaut, Tyrion isn't as bad as Joff, Gaston or LF. But i put him in the Gaston category cause there was only room for one Beast in the essay :blushing:

Queen of Winter, I love Arthurian tales, so your brilliant post really made me wanna go look for The Crystal Cave and it's sequel :D Don't know if this i just came up with means much, but Mahaut made reference to dark caves and Sandor's trial, and i remembered how almost all of Sansa's interactions with Sandor are at night in the dark. Yet when we see him again as the gravedigger it is midday or something like that. Probably crackpot but maybe it means that now the next time he and the little bird see each other again it could be by daylight and the connection which they share and no one seemed to notice in the Red keep could be finally revealed to someone else besides the EB and arya..? :dunno:

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I think the Joffrey, Littlefinger and Gaston comparison is smart. But I wouldn’t put Tyrion in the same category. Like the others, he wants Sansa to play a special role as you point out. But he doesn’t hurt her relatives or Sansa herself when reality doesn’t match his fantasy.

Not actively perhaps, but he goes along with it, even knowing that getting what he dreams of through Sansa (a keep, a pretty wife, a claim to a nice seat) means he will get it over her family's dead bodies. Others may do the actual slaying and planning, but he's benefiting from it, knowingly.

This does make me self owned again though as it highlights I haven't finished the second part of the Tyrion-Sansa analysis! :)

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Not actively perhaps, but he goes along with it, even knowing that getting what he dreams of through Sansa (a keep, a pretty wife, a claim to a nice seat) means he will get it over her family's dead bodies. Others may do the actual slaying and planning, but he's benefiting from it, knowingly.

This does make me self owned again though as it highlights I haven't finished the second part of the Tyrion-Sansa analysis! :)

I believe you have a point there :)

I agree with you that his reasons for accepting the marriage knowing what it implies are far from honorable. I must admit that I only considered the period after their wedding night when it becomes clear that Sansa won't play the part of the loving and pretty wife. What I meant is that, unlike Joffrey, we don't see Tyrion express a wish to punish her or a family because she doesn't want to fulfill his fantasy. He resents her for that but doesn't want to punish her. Or am I misreading something there?

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What I meant is that, unlike Joffrey, we don't see Tyrion express a wish to punish her or a family because she doesn't want to fulfill his fantasy. He resents her for that but doesn't want to punish her. Or am I misreading something there?

I think the relevant point here is that the marriage to Sansa is already a punishment for her and her family. Tyrion enters into it in full awareness of this fact, so the resentment that follows is just his personal delusions of it all possibly working out crashing down around him. He may not have been sadistic like Joffrey and interested in seeing Sansa abused, but he does seek to advance his interests to the detriment of the Starks.

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Second: Rubies. I have long been of the thought that "rubies" don't necessarily relate to stones, but to people. And that the seventh ruby is not a ruby, but a person. If this is true then who are the rest of the "rubies"? Who else is on the Quiet Isle (if anyone), in addition to Sandor? Also, was Sandor the sixth "ruby" they found? I am tending to think so, unless they are waiting for his complete "turn-around", thus becoming the seventh one instead.

Something to think about: I find it highly ironic there were seven men that traveled with Ned Stark to the Tower of Joy, on that one fateful day. (Eddard Stark, William Dustin, Howland Reed, Martyn Cassel, Theo Wull and Ser Mark Rhyswell). Ned Stark and Howland Reed were the only survivors, Ned buried the dead, in cairns.

Could this mean that Sandor will be taking a journey along with some other characters? What journey might that be? Something similar to the importance of what happened at the Tower of Joy?

(I'm sure there are others, but off the top of my head I can come up with the names of five other people whom he might be in close proximity to/has chance of meeting if he leaves the QI: Brienne, Jaime, Stoneheart, Pod, Hyle Hunt--though we're not sure what happened to Pod or Hyle).

But rubies are associated with R'hllor, "The Lord of Light" (Melisandre wears one around her neck)--yet the Quiet Isle is of the Faith of the Seven.

Regarding R'hllor, I want to draw an interesting parallel to Agni, a Hindu god:

"Agni is a Hindu deity, one of the most important of the Vedic gods. He is the god of fire and the acceptor of sacrifices. The sacrifices made to Agni go to the deities because Agni is a messenger from and to the other gods. Agni has three forms: fire, lightning and the sun."

As to those three forms, in relation to Sandor's trial; perhaps fire could relate to Beric Dondarrion's flaming sword; the sun might be the fire he and Sandor were circling as they fought (my theory on this is that our Earth orbits the sun.LOL). And as for lightening, Beric was known as "The Lightening Lord".

"Agni also had the power to impart immortality on mortals, as well as remove all sins at the time of one's death. Agni is the fire of sacrifice, and thus a mediator between man and the gods".

" His attributes are an axe, a torch, prayer beads and a flaming spear. Agni is represented as red and two-faced (reminds me of poor Sandor's burnt face and his two "personalities"-- Sandor/The Hound), suggesting both his destructive and his beneficent qualities, and with black eyes and hair. Seven rays of light emanate from his body..."

As to those seven rays of light...we all know seven is an important number in many religions. As stated in the past, certain aspects of The Faith of the Seven bring to mind Christianity:

"In early Christian iconography, the dove of the Holy Ghost is often shown with an emanation of seven rays, as is the image of the Madonna, often in conjunction with a dove or doves. The Monastery of St. Catherine on Mount Sinai, , shows the Transfiguration of Christ in the apse mosaic, with "seven rays of light shining from the luminous body of Christ over the apostles Peter, James and John." In the present day Byzantine-style St. Louis Cathedral in Missouri, the center of the sanctuary has an engraved circle with many symbols of the Holy Trinity. The inscription reads: "Radiating from this symbol are seven rays of light representing the seven gifts of the Holy Ghost."

The seven gifts of the Holy Ghost are: wisdom, understanding, wonder and awe, right judgment, knowledge, courage, and reverence.

Which in the Faith of the Seven probably point to: The Crone, Mother, Maiden, Father, Smith, Warrior, Stranger.

Queen of Winter, you collided so many different mythologies when it comes to rubies, that I simply had to breathe a little bit and think deeply. First, let me congratulate you again, you really unleashed so many questions we are all trying to answer. But, let me start...

When it comes to rubies, we all think of Rhaegar, and his rubies that shattered throughout the Trident at his final hour. And since you discussed Indian mythology, it`s quite appropriate to mention that they first came from India and that their name litterally meant `king of gemstones`. Rubies are symbols not only of fire (like Melisandre`s jewel, for which I believe was inspired by the Elvish great ring of power Gandalf wore - Narya the Great), or love and passion, they are the most valuable among gemstones, and are symbol of royalty. Basically, when Rhaegar`s threeheaded dragon of rubies was smashed by Robert`s warhammer, it was the end of Targaryen reign. So, I believe that you`re right about rubies representing people, but not any men and women, then those who are linked to the royal bloodline. So, Sandor`s role could be easily becoming `ruby` to the King, or Queen (something i always felt was his path).

Now, focusing on Agni. You`ve mentioned the three forms. I think they are better used as the phases of Sandor`s life.

1. Fire -Sandor is consumed by fire of hatred toward his brother and the rest of the world.

2. Lightening - I know you have meant of Beric, but what if Sandor`s `lightening` was Sansa. During the night (such as Sandor`s life was before Sansa), lightening is something that usually awakens us and for a second gives us so much bright light. In this form, lightening can symbolize change. Sandor`s lightening was at Blackwater, when wildfire made such light that night disappeared, and everything became clear (possible reason why he went to Sansa`s room).

3. Sun - Sun is the symbol of daylight, something that comes after night. Sandor`s path is now enlightened by something pure and innocent in him (something like love).

Also, Sandor can be `mediator between men and Gods`(or at least kings). Sandor is so close to the Kings and yet so close to the people. He may be the link connecting the harsh world of commoners in Westeros and royal`s world of wealth, power and blindness.

Sven rays of light...this was such beautiful comparison, and I couldn`t say anything other than I feel the same about Sandor emanating the Light of the Seven. For he possesses all the virtues and personalities of the Seven...

I don`t know whether anything of what I said make sense, but I really enjoyed cracking my brain thinking about all the wonderful metaphors Queen of Winter has presented us...

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I think the relevant point here is that the marriage to Sansa is already a punishment for her and her family. Tyrion enters into it in full awareness of this fact, so the resentment that follows is just his personal delusions of it all possibly working out crashing down around him. He may not have been sadistic like Joffrey and interested in seeing Sansa abused, but he does seek to advance his interests to the detriment of the Starks.

Ah, Lyanna Stark and brashcandy you're too good for me... I can't compete with your reasoning :D

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If I could bring up a new topic, I was wondering what the opinion is on this thread re. Sansa as an extrovert or introvert? (Apologies if this has been discussed before - I've read a lot of the old PtP threads, but probably not every single one!) This occurred to me because I noticed a poster referring to her as an introvert in another thread, and although this wasn't meant in a pejorative sense, it struck me because I've always assumed that Sansa is a natural extrovert. Although I can see why people would think she displays introverted behaviour during her time in King's Landing and the Vale, it seems to me that these are the defences she puts up to survive, and not her true character. Part of being an extrovert, as I understand it, is that you recharge in social situations rather than by yourself, and I can think of several examples in the novels where Sansa seeks out society - mostly in Game, for obvious reasons, but in Feast, she's looking forward to leaving the Eyrie because it's too quiet - she wants music, company and noise. But then, I do think there are a lot of similarities between her and Ned, who is clearly an introvert. It would be interesting to hear others' thoughts!

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If I could bring up a new topic, I was wondering what the opinion is on this thread re. Sansa as an extrovert or introvert?

I would say she`s extrovert, but the life has made her introvert. You know, same thing with Ned. I have hard time to imagine him being introvert all those years in the Eyrie (his bestie was Robert Baratheon, that counts for something), but deaths of his loved ones, Rebellion, marrying his brother` fiancee and becoming lord he was never supposed to be made him a little bit introvert. Also, for the most part, Ned is in KL, so his surroundings doesn`t allow him to be extrovert. Sansa is pretty much the same, she wants to be extrovert, but life isn`t easy on her. Does this help?

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Your post truly inspired me Queen of Winter. I may be wrong but it seems to me that many rites of passage take place in caves and Sandor’s trial could be considered as such. Because of the darkness, caves are often places of ignorance (see Plato). In our case, the cave is illuminated by fire and a trial by combat takes place there. I like the contradictory symbols here: this cave should be a place of justice and truth. Yet Sandor is still “absolved” of Mycah’s death and the cave sort of retains the ignorance symbolism.

And here is what I've found about rubies. The bishop Marbodus (1035-1123) wrote a book called Liber de lapidibus about mythological gem-lore. Marbodus states that rubies are the unique eyes that dragons and wyverns wear on their forehead. It's rather fitting for a Targaryen prince, isn’t it? Rubies are also the gems of lovers and a symbol of sexual desire (R+L) because of their colour (the same as house Targaryen).

Queen of Winter, you collided so many different mythologies when it comes to rubies, that I simply had to breathe a little bit and think deeply. First, let me congratulate you again, you really unleashed so many questions we are all trying to answer. But, let me start...

Well, I'm glad that my post made the both of you think. I enjoyed writing it. :) I want to touch on a few things quickly before I need to sign off. Mahaut, I'd not thought of Plato and the cave in that way, in relation to Sandor's story line. As for rubies, yes they were definitely considered to be symbols of desire...

Mladen, I had not thought of the rubies in that way in particular, in relation to Kings,etc. What was coming to mind in relation to rubies-R'hllor/ The Faith of the Seven was another aspect of duality in Sandor's story. We have the two sides of his face (the burnt/the unburnt), his two names (The Hound/Sandor), two conflicting personalities, and now we see that it seems maybe both R'hllor and the Seven have some kind of interest in him. R'hllor pardoned him in the cave . Now Sandor is on the QI an enclave of the Faith of the Seven.

Also something I neglected to mention in my earlier post, is that ancients thought rubies had the power to "cure" (or be an antidote to) poison. If the rubies the EB spoke of are indeed people, perhaps these people have some kind of job to do, in order to help right some of the wrongs that have happened...to be rid of "poisonous" aspects either in their own lives or in the world.

And also remember....(Mladen here's your tie to the Kings)...rubies....Rhaegar's Rubies....do you remember in the books, before Rhaegar left to do battle at the Trident, he told Jaime there was going to be some changes when he got back, that they would talk more about it when he returned:

"Rhaegar had put his hand on Jaime’s shoulder. “When this battle’s done I mean to call a council. Changes will be made. I meant to do it long ago, but... well, it does no good to speak of roads not taken. We shall talk when I return.”

Just a thought..... ;)

EDIT: Caro, definitely look up those books if you're interested in them. They're a bit old but you can still find them, they're still in print..... :)

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Regarding Daphne's topic, I would agree that Sansa is a natural extrovert, while Ned might have been a natural introvert. With the latter, it's a bit more difficult to say: we have the necessity of donning the 'lord's face' as Warden of the North, but this is a mask of sorts that Bran notes even Robb has to wear. Ned also seemed to find the social climate in KL to be tiresome, but was this a natural aversion or frustration over the money wasting habits of the Royal court? There's evidence in the KotLT tale that he was shy and had to solicit Brandon to ask Ashara to dance, but I don't think shyness has much to do with introversion. As for Sansa, she very much has the skills to succeed in social arenas, along with clearly enjoying the stimulation afforded by large groups of people and entertainment. What's ironic about the 'recharge' aspect Daphne mentioned is that up to this point, the snow castle scene, with all its isolation and sense of separateness, remains the most powerful symbolic example of Sansa gaining strength and inspiration.

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The way I see it, 'introvert' and 'loner' are two different things. A loner is someone who dislike social events and such - Sansa is clearly not that. An introvert, OTOH, can enjoy parties and all, but it will be very hard to know what's really thinking and feeling. And that description clearly applies to Sansa after the events in AGOT

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Ladies, since I am man of my word, I present you my essays on Sansa through male eyes. It`s series consisted of 5 pieces

1. Male perspective on Sansa

2. Beasts for our beauty, Joffrey and Littlefinger

3. What men see in Sansa, Robb and Tywin analysis

4. Women`s courage, regarding a piece from feministfiction.com

5. San/San, from his eyes.

Great posts! Have to say it's nice to see a decent male perspective on Sansa.

I also agree with everything you said in the Sansa/Sandor post.

also very good point about Sansa having power, but also her lack of power. And the fact Tywin and even Robb disregard her and play her around like a pawn.

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Regarding Daphne's topic, I would agree that Sansa is a natural extrovert, while Ned might have been a natural introvert. With the latter, it's a bit more difficult to say: we have the necessity of donning the 'lord's face' as Warden of the North, but this is a mask of sorts that Bran notes even Robb has to wear. Ned also seemed to find the social climate in KL to be tiresome, but was this a natural aversion or frustration over the money wasting habits of the Royal court? There's evidence in the KotLT tale that he was shy and had to solicit Brandon to ask Ashara to dance, but I don't think shyness has much to do with introversion.

Really interesting points about Ned. I agree, it's a difficult one to call in some ways. I think the problem is that we have never seen him in his natural mileau, so we don't really know his attitude towards non-KL social situations I think I'd still lean towards 'introvert' due to his seemingly ingrained habit of seeking out the godswood in times of trouble, but it's true that this is something that Sansa does as well with the snow castle. I think there's a difference between one incident and a pattern of behaviour, however. Ultimately, I think I'd argue that Sansa's extroversion is something that she does get from Cat (while agreeing that her personality as a whole is more Ned-like). But then, it's possible that the trauma she's witnessed has altered her responses to situations.

The way I see it, 'introvert' and 'loner' are two different things. A loner is someone who dislike social events and such - Sansa is clearly not that. An introvert, OTOH, can enjoy parties and all, but it will be very hard to know what's really thinking and feeling. And that description clearly applies to Sansa after the events in AGOT

I think this depends on the definition you're using, and I imagine this is something that's contested. The wikipedia entry approximates pretty closely to my working definition, and I don't see being inscrutable as an introvert characteristic. (To give a personal example, I'm clearly an introvert, but also incredibly easy to read - I find it impossible to hide what I'm thinking!) But yes there probably are other versions of the schema out there. I think you're right, though, that introverts aren't necessarily loners.

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If people wish to speculate on swords being fround by the brothers on or near the QI, Arya threw Joffrey's "Lion's Tooth" into the river just a bit upsteam. :cool4:

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But weren't those shining swords they found. I mean normal iron sword would rust in the water so it won't be shining anymore. So maybe the Elder brothet refers to valirian swords - i'm not sure if they rust or not. dark sister maybe??

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Mladen, I had not thought of the rubies in that way in particular, in relation to Kings,etc. What was coming to mind in relation to rubies-R'hllor/ The Faith of the Seven was another aspect of duality in Sandor's story. We have the two sides of his face (the burnt/the unburnt), his two names (The Hound/Sandor), two conflicting personalities, and now we see that it seems maybe both R'hllor and the Seven have some kind of interest in him. R'hllor pardoned him in the cave . Now Sandor is on the QI an enclave of the Faith of the Seven.

Also something I neglected to mention in my earlier post, is that ancients thought rubies had the power to "cure" (or be an antidote to) poison. If the rubies the EB spoke of are indeed people, perhaps these people have some kind of job to do, in order to help right some of the wrongs that have happened...to be rid of "poisonous" aspects either in their own lives or in the world.

And also remember....(Mladen here's your tie to the Kings)...rubies....Rhaegar's Rubies....do you remember in the books, before Rhaegar left to do battle at the Trident, he told Jaime there was going to be some changes when he got back, that they would talk more about it when he returned:

"Rhaegar had put his hand on Jaime’s shoulder. “When this battle’s done I mean to call a council. Changes will be made. I meant to do it long ago, but... well, it does no good to speak of roads not taken. We shall talk when I return.”

Just a thought..... ;)

Bolded part: I understand you hadn`t thought of them in that way, but I was wondering can the symbolism of the rubies be expanded. Also, about duality, rubies, accordingly to the light and angle, can be red, or almost black. That`s basically who Sandor is, you just have to watch him from the right perspective. Also, if rubies are representing people, I`m inclining towards idea that they represent Kingsguard fallen from grace (Barristan, Jaime, Sandor, Brienne, Loras and Jorah(he`s not Kingsguard, but is closest to that)). And, that they`ll heal the Kingdom by protecting the one King.

As for Rhaegar`s rubies, they were on his shield and armour, and that`s where I found the symbolism of rubies being the Kingsguard...

And, at the end, when you include Sansa in all of this, the fact that Sandor, Jaime and Brienne(all three are Kingsguards) are keen to find her and protect her, that speaks for itself. Could Sansa be the Queen to be guarded by the Rhaegar`s rubies? And, by that, can she be the Queen of Westeros?

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Also, if rubies are representing people, I`m inclining towards idea that they represent Kingsguard fallen from grace (Barristan, Jaime, Sandor, Brienne, Loras and Jorah(he`s not Kingsguard, but is closest to that)). And, that they`ll heal the Kingdom by protecting the one King.

As for Rhaegar`s rubies, they were on his shield and armour, and that`s where I found the symbolism of rubies being the Kingsguard...

And, at the end, when you include Sansa in all of this, the fact that Sandor, Jaime and Brienne(all three are Kingsguards) are keen to find her and protect her, that speaks for itself. Could Sansa be the Queen to be guarded by the Rhaegar`s rubies? And, by that, can she be the Queen of Westeros?

I do like the idea about the "fallen" Kingsguards.......interesting..... :)

And ... three former Kingsguards who might be looking for Sansa....weren't there three Kingsguards guarding Lyanna at the ToJ? (Arthur Dayne, Oswell Whent, and Gerold Hightower). ;)

If people wish to speculate on swords being fround by the brothers on or near the QI, Arya threw Joffrey's "Lion's Tooth" into the river just a bit upsteam.

But weren't those shining swords they found. I mean normal iron sword would rust in the water so it won't be shining anymore. So maybe the Elder brothet refers to valirian swords - i'm not sure if they rust or not. dark sister maybe??

Does Valyrian steel "shine"? I thought the blades were said to be dark colored(?). The only one of the greatswords I can think of that might equate to "shining" is Dawn (it was pale as milkglass), which was last seen with House Dayne .

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