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From Pawn to Player: Rethinking Sansa XVIII


brashcandy

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I found this new podcast on tumblr where Sansa (in the books, tv, in the fandom) is mentioned quite a lot. Thought it would be intresting to share it but I don't know if I should put this under spoilers or something?

Anyways, enjoy :)

http://fatpinkcast.t...e-relationships

edit: they also talk about almost all the other women in the books, and they mention topics that have been discussed here, like the way Sansa is more like Ned and Arya like Cat, and that Arya and Sansa are two sides of the same coin, among other things.

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To all ladies of P2P thread, happy Women`s day, may you live in free society with power to chose how you`ll live your life...Best wishes from Libya, Mladen

Thaks Mladen! I really enjoyed your essays on Sandor and Snape. Just reading that scene again where Snape shows Dubledore the white doe made me all teary eyed again.
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Another very enjoyable essay Mladen. I know you had some discussion points you wanted the thread to consider, so you can also post those when you're ready.

I found this new podcast on tumblr where Sansa (in the books, tv, in the fandom) is mentioned quite a lot. Thought it would be intresting to share it but I don't know if I should put this under spoilers or something?

Anyways, enjoy :)

http://fatpinkcast.t...e-relationships

edit: they also talk about almost all the other women in the books, and they mention topics that have been discussed here, like the way Sansa is more like Ned and Arya like Cat, and that Arya and Sansa are two sides of the same coin, among other things.

Great :) Any outside sources that apply to Sansa are always welcome.

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SANSA DISCUSSION POINTS:

1. Who`s the fairest of them all

Discussion about Sansa and Cersei, how both of them impacted each other. The origin of Cersei`s hatred. Was Cersei afraid of Sansa as much she is of Margaery? What Sansa learnt from Cersei?

2.
Humiliation that should have never come

Sansa`s feelings about being betrayed by Joffrey and Cersei. How this betrayal changed Sansa? Will it impact her future friendships and relations?

3.
Fairy Godmother`s gift or poisonous apple

Discussion about the meaning of Littlefinger`s gift of freedom. How Sansa see this? Has Littlefinger given Sansa freedom or has he made her his own prisoner? How will Sansa get free of his will?

4.
Going into rabbit hole

Sansa`s journey to King`s Landing, the adventure of meeting the new world, and realizing what that world has brought to her.

5.
The awakening moment

Sansa watching her father`s death. The very moment that changed everything.

6.
The Queen in the North

Discussion about possibilities of Sansa becoming the Queen and her final transformation into a player. Could she be Rickon`s regent? Is there possibility of her becoming the Queen of Westeros? What will be her game?

7. She-wolves of Winterfell

Lyanna and Sansa, she-wolves who paid for their love. Sansa being her father`s daughter. Is there anything of Lyanna in Sansa? Tyrion/Sansa marriage comparing to Lyanna/Robert engagement. Motherhood motif in their lives.

8. Florian and Jonquil vs Mother`s hymn

The song Sandor wanted vs song she sang him. Did Sansa dive Sandor what he really needed? Has the journey that led him to Quiet Isle started with Sansa`s song?

Replies are welcomed in any forms. For those of you keen on writing essays, please PM me so we could talk about it.

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3.
Fairy Godmother`s gift or poisonous apple

Discussion about the meaning of Littlefinger`s gift of freedom. How Sansa see this? Has Littlefinger given Sansa freedom or has he made her his own prisoner? How will Sansa get free of his will?

I had a nice laugh imagining Aiden Gillen in a poofy dress with a wand :) Anyways, as much as we recognize Littlefinger is a low life pervert, his relationship with Sansa, and how she feels about him is fairly complex. Pod the Impaler did a great job of exploring some of this in his essay for the male influences project for anyone who wants to check that out. On the question of whether he's given her freedom or made her a prisoner, I'd definitely argue for the latter as being his overall intention, but Sansa is managing to subvert this through various means. KL was her literal prison, and she does hold the gratitude one would expect for LF's assistance in getting her out, but she's not the same naive girl she once was. She realises that though he may have been the one to ultimately free her, he didn't do much to alleviate the suffering she experienced there. Based on the last chapter in AFFC, it may now likely be very clear to Sansa that LF's promise of freedom is mired in the same corruption and treachery that formed the basis of his recruitment and "dismissal" of Dontos Hollard. The Gates of the Moon is not Kings Landing, and while Sansa had very little means of support when she was in the latter location, I think that now we're going to see a real shift in terms of what she's able to achieve on her own. We've seen Sansa's steady maturity and realistic approach to things, as well as a growing confidence; and of course, there's Sweetrobin to consider in all this. There are simply too many factors in play which will make the hold he imagines he has on Sansa slowly begin to weaken.

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I had a nice laugh imagining Aiden Gillen in a poofy dress with a wand :) Anyways, as much as we recognize Littlefinger is a low life pervert, his relationship with Sansa, and how she feels about him is fairly complex.

I agree with you, brash. When it comes to Sansa, LF isn`t jut pervert, he`s something more. Far more. I think he has never forgotten or forgiven Tullys how they treated him when he exposed his emotions for Cat. Whn he was denied in such way, exiled from land, hurt and humiliated. Emotional scars he bears ever since shaped him on so many different levels. He, like he said in TV show, would never be one of them. But he will beat them in his game. What he feels for Sansa is in some way love, and in some way patological desire for control. For he has what he wanted his entire life, beautiful noblewoman who sees him as a God. He wants of Sansa all that he was denied by Cat. He wants Sansa to be Cat. Alas, there is so little of Cat in Sansa, and so much of Ned. And when he realizes that, he will be genuinly hurt.

On the question of whether he's given her freedom or made her a prisoner, I'd definitely argue for the latter as being his overall intention, but Sansa is managing to subvert this through various means. KL was her literal prison, and she does hold the gratitude one would expect for LF's assistance in getting her out, but she's not the same naive girl she once was.

Everything comes with a prize. It`s universal truth. Sansa doesn`t see Eyrie as a prison, but neither as a home. But, when LF finally opened his cards, she understood a lot of things. Another marriage, another way to trap her. It`s even funny how she grasps here for the last straw, first it was SR, and idea that he won`t die and after LF clearly said he will die, she turns to her marriage with Tyrion. Who would say that one shekels could also be a key to unlock another :). But, prison is a prison, no matter who captor is. And Sansa is in not just LF scheming prison, than also in his twisted psychopatic illusions. Alayne, creation of LF, creature he possesses, he controls. Alayne is obedient, mannered, everything a bastard daughter should be, she is grateful to her father, and she loves him. But as I said, Sansa isn`t Alayne, she isn`t his daughter. It`s all just a mask. just like she sees his masks, she understands hers. And Sansa will be ready to drop the mask any time, but LF won`t. What he is trying to do to her is almost the same Ramsay did to Theon (without flaying, amputations and torture).

We've seen Sansa's steady maturity and realistic approach to things, as well as a growing confidence; and of course, there's Sweetrobin to consider in all this. There are simply too many factors in play which will make the hold he imagines he has on Sansa slowly begin to weaken.

SweetRobin will play his role here. Compassionate Sansa will never allow his death, especially if after his death, she`ll face arranged marriage to Harry the Heir. Sansa`s loyalty to the boy will soon be seen by others, and I imagine that when the time comes, and masks are dropped, she`ll find Vale lords genuinly protective and kind to her. I can`t see any of the Vale lords hurting her after she reveals who she is. And furthermore, if she protects their liege lord.

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SweetRobin will play his role here. Compassionate Sansa will never allow his death, especially if after his death, she`ll face arranged marriage to Harry the Heir. Sansa`s loyalty to the boy will soon be seen by others, and I imagine that when the time comes, and masks are dropped, she`ll find Vale lords genuinly protective and kind to her. I can`t see any of the Vale lords hurting her after she reveals who she is. And furthermore, if she protects their liege lord.

I wish I could be as confident as you are about this Mladen :) But given that this is Westeros, I'm skeptical about it being so easy for Sansa. What we've seen up to this point is that most people will help you as long it benefits them as well. I do agree that she might find some staunch allies, but I think there will be challenges, especially as we anticipate her desire towards full agency. If LF really has succeeded in buying up friends in the Vale, then that's going to be a problem, along with her own current wanted status as a kingslayer, and we know the Mad Mouse is lurking about.

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Everything comes with a prize.

It does? Awesome! (I'm aware you meant "price," but hee hee, couldn't help it.)

But, prison is a prison, no matter who captor is. And Sansa is in not just LF scheming prison, than also in his twisted psychopatic illusions. Alayne, creation of LF, creature he possesses, he controls. Alayne is obedient, mannered, everything a bastard daughter should be, she is grateful to her father, and she loves him. But as I said, Sansa isn`t Alayne, she isn`t his daughter. It`s all just a mask. just like she sees his masks, she understands hers. And Sansa will be ready to drop the mask any time, but LF won`t. What he is trying to do to her is almost the same Ramsay did to Theon (without flaying, amputations and torture).

I'm far less concerned about the sense of the Vale being a physical prison for Sansa as a mental or psychological prison. A physical prison can be escaped, but a mental psychological prison can't, or at least can't be escaped as easily. There are lots of characters in ASOIAF who spend their time in physical prisons of one kind or another, but the far more dangerous prisons seem to be psychological prisons. There are those self-created prisons that are characters' undoing (Ned, Robb, and Tyrion, I think), but there are also characters who are trapped in psychological prisons of others' doing. Theon is the best example, since it's one thing to escape Ramsay's physical grasp, but escaping Ramsay's hold on his identity and even his soul is another matter altogether.

Littlefinger is trying to trap Sansa in a psychological prison of his own. It's not the "Alayne" identity so much as what the "Alayne" identity permits: a pretext for gratitude, for complicity, for obedience, for physical intimacy. It's a means to an end. In King's Landing, she was physically imprisoned, but she was psychologically free (after AGOT, no one tried to sell her on the virtues of the Lannister cause or tried to manipulate her into viewing Joffrey, Tyrion, Cersei, etc. as wonderful, misunderstood people). In the Vale, her psychological/mental freedom is at risk, and that's what I'm more worried about, although there are signs to suggest that she won't succumb to Littlefinger's manipulations entirely.

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I wish I could be as confident as you are about this Mladen :) But given that this is Westeros, I'm skeptical about it being so easy for Sansa. What we've seen up to this point is that most people will help you as long it benefits them as well. I do agree that she might find some staunch allies, but I think there will be challenges, especially as we anticipate her desire towards full agency. If LF really has succeeded in buying up friends in the Vale, then that's going to be a problem, along with her own current wanted status as a kingslayer, and we know the Mad Mouse is lurking about.

Well, we have seen the worst in people, now it`s time to see the best. Her trump card is SR, if she manages to protect him from LF and it becomes a knowledge to Vale lords, I can see them protecting her. We know how they wanted to join Robb`s cause, we know they know about Joffrey and perhaps some of them may even draw the right conclusion. After all, she is niece of Jon Arryn and blood relative to SR. Also, there is Blackfish to take into account. I wouldn`t be so surprised to see him lurking in Vale. I can be totally wrong here, but I feel it right. This is not some wishful thinking, this is something in m gut telling that they won`t hurt her.

It does? Awesome! (I'm aware you meant "price," but hee hee, couldn't help it.)

:blushing: Oh, dear Lord...This is a great reminder that I should pay more attention. After all, English isn`t my native language... :)

I'm far less concerned about the sense of the Vale being a physical prison for Sansa as a mental or psychological prison. A physical prison can be escaped, but a mental psychological prison can't, or at least can't be escaped as easily. There are lots of characters in ASOIAF who spend their time in physical prisons of one kind of another, but the far more dangerous prisons seem to be psychological prisons. There are those self-created prisons that are characters' undoing (Ned, Robb, Tyrion, I think), but there are also characters who are trapped in psychological prisons of others' doing. Theon is the best example, since it's one thing to escape Ramsay's physical grasp, but escaping Ramsay's hold on his identity and even his soul is another matter altogether.

Littlefinger is trying to trap Sansa in a psychological prison of his own. It's not the "Alayne" identity so much as what the "Alayne" identity permits: a pretext for gratitude, for complicity, for obedience, for physical intimacy. It's a means to an end. In King's Landing, she was physically imprisoned, but she was psychologically free (after AGOT, no one tried to sell her on the virtues of the Lannister cause or tried to manipulate her into viewing Joffrey, Tyrion, Cersei, etc. as wonderful, misunderstood people). In the Vale, her psychological/mental freedom is at risk, and that's what I'm more worried about, although there are signs to suggest that she won't succumb to Littlefinger's manipulations entirely.

:agree: . After Joffrey killed her father, he couldn`t do anything worse to her. She was entrapped, but she was free of that toxic love she felt, she was free of any loyalty for them. With LF and Vale is a bit different. He has created Alayne, and I am worried that he intends to do the same Ramsay did with Theon. To change the real face with the mask. To make her believe that Sansa is a game and Alayne is the real deal. I have to say it wasn`t a good feeling when I read the chapter named `Alayne`, but I was reassured when she clearly drew line in her mind about who is her father. That idea in which Sansa drew line about who her father is, is same like Nymeria and Needle for Arya. No matter how good the captor is in entrapping you, no matter how powerless you fell, there is that notion of who you are. A torch that burns inside you...North remembers...And both Arya and Sansa are of the North, daughters of First Men and Winterfell, and I don`t see them forgetting that any time soon. And that`s why no psychological prison will ever work on them. Unlike Theon, they are much stronger.

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Littlefinger is trying to trap Sansa in a psychological prison of his own. It's not the "Alayne" identity so much as what the "Alayne" identity permits: a pretext for gratitude, for complicity, for obedience, for physical intimacy. It's a means to an end. In King's Landing, she was physically imprisoned, but she was psychologically free (after AGOT, no one tried to sell her on the virtues of the Lannister cause or tried to manipulate her into viewing Joffrey, Tyrion, Cersei, etc. as wonderful, misunderstood people). In the Vale, her psychological/mental freedom is at risk, and that's what I'm more worried about, although there are signs to suggest that she won't succumb to Littlefinger's manipulations entirely.

Overall, I'd tend to agree with you on the highlighted part, but I would still argue that there were attempts to mold her to the Lannister way of thinking, perhaps most notably by Cersei around the time of the Blackwater battle. And while she could never come to view Joffrey with anything more than hatred and contempt, Tyrion did try to get her to accept him as a favourable marriage partner. But it is a fact that Sansa is able to reject these overtures from her husband and the "advice" that Cersei delivers. This rejection isn't so clearcut now that she's in the Vale with LF and that's a result of the two-sided nature she detects about him and the necessity of ensuring her survival. But we can see the signs of rejection in things like "lies and arbor gold" and her unwillingness to be married again.

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Well, we have seen the worst in people, now it`s time to see the best. Her trump card is SR, if she manages to protect him from LF and it becomes a knowledge to Vale lords, I can see them protecting her. We know how they wanted to join Robb`s cause, we know they know about Joffrey and perhaps some of them may even draw the right conclusion. After all, she is niece of Jon Arryn and blood relative to SR. Also, there is Blackfish to take into account. I wouldn`t be so surprised to see him lurking in Vale. I can be totally wrong here, but I feel it right. This is not some wishful thinking, this is something in m gut telling that they won`t hurt her.

:blushing: Oh, dear Lord...This is a great reminder that I should pay more attention. After all, English isn`t my native language... :)

:agree: . After Joffrey killed her father, he couldn`t do anything worse to her. She was entrapped, but she was free of that toxic love she felt, she was free of any loyalty for them. With LF and Vale is a bit different. He has created Alayne, and I am worried that he intends to do the same Ramsay did with Theon. To change the real face with the mask. To make her believe that Sansa is a game and Alayne is the real deal. I have to say it wasn`t a good feeling when I read the chapter named `Alayne`, but I was reassured when she clearly drew line in her mind about who is her father. That idea in which Sansa drew line about who her father is, is same like Nymeria and Needle for Arya. No matter how good the captor is in entrapping you, no matter how powerless you fell, there is that notion of who you are. A torch that burns inside you...North remembers...And both Arya and Sansa are of the North, daughters of First Men and Winterfell, and I don`t see them forgetting that any time soon. And that`s why no psychological prison will ever work on them. Unlike Theon, they are much stronger.

Yes, but Littlefinger does it with an elegance that the brutalizing Ramsay could never hope to match.

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Yes, but Littlefinger does it with an elegance that the brutalizing Ramsay could never hope to match.

Yes, Littlefinger isn`t Ramsay, but Sansa has much stronger personality than Theon. He struggles with `don`t forget your name`, but Sansa is so clear in `but you are not my father`. We discussed it long time ago that no kid in Westeros(SR, Joffrey, Tommen, Myrcella, Theon) is stronger than Stark kids. The thing about Starks is that unity that connects them. No matter how different they are, no matter what they do to each other, they sincerely care for wellbeing of other members of family. That`s something Theon or Joffrey never had.

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Littlefinger is trying to trap Sansa in a psychological prison of his own. It's not the "Alayne" identity so much as what the "Alayne" identity permits: a pretext for gratitude, for complicity, for obedience, for physical intimacy. It's a means to an end. In King's Landing, she was physically imprisoned, but she was psychologically free (after AGOT, no one tried to sell her on the virtues of the Lannister cause or tried to manipulate her into viewing Joffrey, Tyrion, Cersei, etc. as wonderful, misunderstood people). In the Vale, her psychological/mental freedom is at risk, and that's what I'm more worried about, although there are signs to suggest that she won't succumb to Littlefinger's manipulations entirely.

I agree with the Ramsay/Littlefinger connection, but see Sansa’s connection to Jeyne Poole. I'm concerned as Newstar is above, though I agree that Sansa is strong and still remembers ‘her name’. She has moments where she is conflicted though. She realizes that she must play along for her own safety, but that act is what is exposing her to Baelish’s manipulations. In some ways, Sansa needs these hard lessons. They’re what will grow her into the woman Martin intends her to be.

In AGoT Sansa repeatedly draws comparisons to herself and Jeyne in that Sansa is the stronger and Jeyne is always crying. Like Jeyne, Sansa has found herself in Littlefinger’s clutches. He seems to be playing a long game with her. Like Jeyne as “Arya”, while she’s the fake “Alayne” Baelish is planning on betrothing Sansa to Harrold Hardyng. Littlefinger seems rather smug at the end of her chapter in AFFC though so I wonder if he doesn’t have something else in mind, namely, himself.

Sansa’s thoughts on Jeyne being taken to Littlefinger:

Sansa was confused. “I don’t understand,” she said. “Where is Jeyne’s father? Why can’t Ser Boros take her to him instead of Lord Petyr having to do it?” She had promised herself she would be a lady, gentle as the queen and as strong as her mother, the Lady Catelyn, but all of a sudden she was scared again. For a second she thought she might cry. “Where are you sending her? She hasn’t done anything wrong, she’s a good girl.”

Another comparison:

He could see a spiderweb of faint thin lines across her back where someone had whipped her.

Sansa probably bears such marks from the beatings of the Kingsguard.

Given the sheer number of characters in the books, I’m constantly drawing comparisons between them. This has led me to the theory that there’s often the “power of two” (certainly more repetitions in plenty of cases) in that one character references another, that we almost always see locations at least twice, that when one set of circumstances occurs to a parallel character we see a different outcome with another.

From ADWD I’ve highlighted below some of the references, comparisons and parts that give me pause, beginning with Theon’s prayer in Winterfell’s godswood:

A thin film of ice covered the surface of the pool beneath the weirwood. Theon sank to his knees beside it. “Please,” he murmured through his broken teeth, “I never meant …” The words caught in his throat. “Save me,” he finally managed. “Give me …” What? Strength? Courage? Mercy? Snow fell around him, pale and silent, keeping its own counsel. The only sound was a faint soft sobbing. Jeyne, he thought. It is her, sobbing in her bridal bed. Who else could it be? Gods do not weep. Or do they?

-----------------

Then he saw her. She was huddled in the darkest corner of the bedchamber, on the floor, curled up in a ball beneath a pile of wolfskins. Theon might never have spotted her but for the way she trembled. Jeyne had pulled the furs up over herself to hide. From us? Or was she expecting her lord husband? The thought that Ramsay might be coming made him want to scream. “My lady.” Theon could not bring himself to call her Arya and dare not call her Jeyne.

“No need to hide. These are friends.”

-----------------

She has forgotten who she is. She has forgotten her name. “That’s so,” said Theon, “but you had brothers once. Three of them. Robb and Bran and Rickon.”

“They’re dead. I have no brothers now.”

“You have a half-brother,” Rowan said. “Lord Crow, he is.”

“Jon Snow?”

“We’ll take you to him, but you must come at once.”

Jeyne pulled her wolfskins up to her chin. “No. This is some trick. It’s him, it’s my … my

lord, my sweet lord, he sent you, this is just some test to make sure that I love him. I do, I do, I love him more than anything.” A tear ran down her cheek. “Tell him, you tell him. I’ll do what he wants … whatever he wants … with him or … or with the dog or … please … he doesn’t need to cut my feet off, I won’t try to run away, not ever, I’ll give him sons, I swear it, I swear it …”

Rowan whistled softly. “Gods curse the man.”

“I’m a good girl,” Jeyne whimpered. “They trained me.”

Willow scowled. “Someone stop her crying. That guard was mute, not deaf. They’re going

to hear.”

“Get her up, turncloak.” Holly had her knife in hand. “Get her up or I will. We have to go.

Get the little cunt up on her feet and shake some courage into her.”

“And if she screams?” said Rowan.

We are all dead, Theon thought. I told them this was folly, but none of them would listen.

Abel had doomed them. All singers were half-mad. In songs, the hero always saved the maiden from the monster’s castle, but life was not a song, no more than Jeyne was Arya Stark. Her eyes are the wrong color. And there are no heroes here, only whores. Even so, he knelt beside her, pulled down the furs, touched her cheek. “You know me. I’m Theon, you remember. I know you too. I know your name.”

I don’t think that Jeyne Poole’s outcome will be Sansa’s. But the interplay I see between the two character’s story lines certainly makes me wonder where Sansa will find herself in TWoW.

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Brilliant catch on the 'good girl' reflection, Karmarni! I never noticed that before. However, if anything, I think it points towards Jeyne's path being the inverse of Sansa's, rather than the two girls mirroring each other. There's been some discussion on the thread before about Jeyne and Sansa, and with the important caveat that Jeyne's experiences have been even worse than Sansa's by the end of Dance, I think some good points were made about Jeyne and Sansa's reactions to violence and fear in Game, and how at each point, GRRM seems to be trying to show that Sansa has more inner strength than Jeyne; while she endures, Jeyne breaks (although who could blame her?) I just turned up another interesting section in the chapter you quoted from, actually:

Jeyne Poole had been confined with her, but Jeyne was useless. Her face was puffy from all her crying, and she could not seem to keep sobbing about her father... She [sansa] thought that kindness might lift Jeyne's spirits, but the other girl just looked at her with red, swollen eyes and began to cry all the harder. She was such a child.

Although Sansa does, to some extent, hold true to one of her major character traits in this scene by trying to be kind to Jeyne and reassuring her about her father, the scene as a whole seems somewhat out of character, given the sympathetic Sansa that we see from Clash onwards. Indeed, the last line in particular reminds me strongly of Arya; I recently posted in the Arya re-read that Arya is unable to be sympathetic to Hot Pie, because if she allowed herself to feel sorry for him she would start feeling sorry for herself, and that would be psychologically unbearable. I suspect something similar is going on with Sansa here; although she moves beyond this attitude later, this is probably because (a) she is older and wiser and (b )the people she shows sympathy for later, like Lollys and the women of King's Landing, are not as close to her as Jeyne, in both senses. She knows Jeyne far better, and there are also obvious parallels between their situations here, as Sansa is afraid for her father as well.

However, like Arya, Sansa is stronger than her companions, which is why I think I'd largely agree with Sansa's own assessment, as you put it:

In AGoT Sansa repeatedly draws comparisons to herself and Jeyne in that Sansa is the stronger and Jeyne is always crying.

or to put it another way, that while there are parallels between Sansa and Jeyne, I still think they will end up in very different places; indeed, that Jeyne's story functions to an extent to remind us of how difficult it is to be a Sansa and to retain one's self and value system while suffering constant fear and abuse, not because Jeyne is weak, but because Sansa is exceptionally strong.

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I agree with the Ramsay/Littlefinger connection, but see Sansa’s connection to Jeyne Poole.

Well, this is why I make the comparison of their style. Baelish's brainwishing is more subtle and complex, not less cruel.

Littlefinger is capable of being as malevolent as Ramsay, and we know it because it was Littlefinger who had Jeyne Poole "trained" for Ramsay's sexual use, as well as her false identity.

Yet Littlefinger is not one to flaunt doing such a thing; he'd prefer nobody ever suspect he's capable of such cruelty.

If Sansa had an inkling of what was done - by him - to her best friend Jeyne, that would be the end of her believing his benevolent act.

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A few things:

I would still argue that there were attempts to mold her to the Lannister way of thinking, perhaps most notably by Cersei around the time of the Blackwater battle. And while she could never come to view Joffrey with anything more than hatred and contempt, Tyrion did try to get her to accept him as a favourable marriage partner.

My general impression of the Lannisters' imprisonment of Sansa was one of callousness: they didn't care about Sansa thought, or, if they did care, they didn't have any interest in doing anything to change her mind. When Tyrion points out that marrying Sansa to him is singularly cruel, Tywin's response is "more curious than concerned": "Why, do you plan to mistreat her?" Cersei seems unconcerned with the prospect of Sansa making a scene at the wedding, only pointing out that it made no difference. Tyrion's attempt to win Sansa over amounts to his pitch on their wedding night, and when she makes it clear she's having none of it, he throws up his hands (to the point where I've seen it argued on the boards that he should have tried harder to win her over). His response to her behaviour is not an attempt to change her mind, but rather descending into bitterness, self-pity, boozing, taking refuge with Shae, etc. etc.

The problem that I see with the Lannisters is that by and large they don't care that Sansa thinks well of them as long as she does what she's told (Joffrey is even rather proud that Sansa fears him rather than loves him), and on the rare occasion they do care what Sansa thinks of them, they don't care to do anything about it. Littlefinger doesn't have this problem; no one can accuse him of not caring of what Sansa thinks of him. It's not enough that she does what he says: she has to like it. It's not enough that she carries out his orders: she has to understand them and approve of them. It's not enough that she kisses him when he asks: it has to be a "proper" kiss, not a "dutiful" one. That's where the psychological prison part comes in: the Lannisters, in their own way, permitted Sansa some psychological freedom (allowing Sansa to think whatever she wanted and feel whatever she wanted as long as she did what she was told), and treated her horrible opinions as either beneath their notice or beyond their ability to change. Mere obedience and mouthing the right words aren't enough to satisfy Littlefinger, though: he wants her to be Alayne (who loves Petyr) in her heart, all the time. Thus the prison. Obedience isn't enough: enthusiasm is not only expected, but demanded.

Yes, but Littlefinger does it with an elegance that the brutalizing Ramsay could never hope to match.

Yes. Littlefinger has a black belt in psychological manipulation. It's quite terrifying, actually.

Sansa's connection to Jeyne Poole

Jeyne Poole's arc is kind of like a horrible, demented, funhouse mirror, nightmare version of Sansa's:

1. Sansa and Jeyne are separated in AGOT.

2. Sansa is kept in King's Landing. She is beaten by the Kingsguard (although I haven't seen anything to suggest that they left lasting marks) on a regular basis. Jeyne is spirited off to a brothel, where she is whipped to the point where she bears scars.

3. Despite threats of rape from numerous quarters, Sansa's virginity remains intact. Jeyne is "trained" to learn how to please her future husband (and I don't think it's much of a stretch to suggest this training involved rape).

4. Sansa and Jeyne are both married off against their will. Sansa's husband does not consummate the marriage on their wedding night. Jeyne's husband not only rapes her on her wedding night but also recruits a third party to perform oral sex on her against her will.

5. Sansa's husband never consummates the marriage. Jeyne's husband leaves bite marks on her breasts, threatens to cut off her feet (and other body parts, presumably), terrorizes, and rapes her on a regular basis (and also forces her to perform sexual acts with a dog, it's implied).

6. Sansa's rescuer is a wealthy, powerful man with resources and many men loyal to him. Jeyne's rescuer is, well, Theon (and the spearwives, to be fair).

7. Despite the many emotional traumas Sansa has suffered, she hasn't been physically scarred or altered (that we know of). Jeyne bears whip scars and in TWOW we learn

that the tip of her nose is black with frostbite (implying she will likely lose it). She also broke a few ribs when Theon jumped with her.

The sad thing is that Littlefinger is pretty much the driving force behind Sansa and Jeyne's respective fates over the course of the books. We can see how he treats his Cat-replacement at some personal risk (the elaborate "Alayne" charade, going to all that trouble to get her out of KL, giving her a fairly comfortable position, bastard status notwithstanding) versus how he treats the disposable and useful Jeyne (leaving her in a brothel, dealing with her through third parties, arranging for her marriage to a psychopath for personal gain, etc.). Sansa, were she not a Cat clone, could just as easily have been a "Jeyne." Arya, if Littlefinger had ever gotten his hands on her, could just as easily have been a "Jeyne."

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Tyrion's attempt to win Sansa over amounts to his pitch on their wedding night, and when she makes it clear she's having none of it, he throws up his hands. His response to her behaviour is not an attempt to change her mind, but rather descending into bitterness, self-pity, boozing, taking refuge with Shae, etc. etc.

I think Tyrion would have liked to change her mind about him, but soon enough was willing to admit this was nothing but wishful thinking, so I'd say his response to her behavior is to realize that he can't. (Which is better, really.)

He was still protective of her, at least - he protection was not conditional on her willingness to sleep with him.

Yet, like Littlefinger, he does want to be wanted - that much is true.

Mere obedience and mouthing the right words aren't enough to satisfy Littlefinger, though: he wants her to be Alayne (who loves Petyr) in her heart, all the time. Thus the prison. Obedience isn't enough: enthusiasm is not only expected, but demanded.

Littlefinger has a black belt in psychological manipulation. It's quite terrifying, actually.

The sad thing is that Littlefinger is pretty much the driving force behind Sansa and Jeyne's respective fates over the course of the books. We can see how he treats his Cat-replacement at some personal risk (the elaborate "Alayne" charade, going to all that trouble to get her out of KL, giving her a fairly comfortable position, bastard status notwithstanding) versus how he treats the disposable and useful Jeyne (leaving her in a brothel, dealing with her through third parties, arranging for her marriage to a psychopath for personal gain, etc.). Sansa, were she not a Cat clone, could just as easily have been a "Jeyne." Arya, if Littlefinger had ever gotten his hands on her, could just as easily have been a "Jeyne."

Well, that's the main thing:

Littlefinger does want Sansa to want him. He does want her to feel love for him or at least desire. To that end he is willing to engage in any amount of deception and manipulation to foster it.

Cruelty will not work with her. He wants a willing lover, not a broken-spirited terrified hostage. Maybe it's genuine desire on his part, or maybe just his ego that demands he play these games and "win" by getting her to come willingly to his bed.

In any case, I agree - Littlfinger takes a very risky path here, gambling that he can change Sansa just enough to make this possible - but not so much that she is no longer the girl he desires.

By comparison, Tyrion is not willing to go that far - he'd rather just abandon the whole idea of being with her as foolish. And Ramsay simply does not care what his victims think, except to the extent that he enjoys ruining them mentally, physically, and sexually.

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