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brashcandy

From Pawn to Player: Rethinking Sansa XVIII

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I know, that smile when the interviewer says she's a big fan of the Hound, like, yup, I've heard that before. And then he proceeds to bring up SanSan very deliberately. Although he doesn't say "a little", the interviewer says that about the show.

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Great list Milady - I think I was probably misremembering partly because as Queen of Winter says, there is no POV from Sandor to get the equivalent thoughts to those of Jaime and so it is less obvious on his behalf. But given that list, then the San/San and J/B parallels really are incredible and make you wonder where GRRM is taking the two stories. :D Must now go back and re-read the later Sansa / ALayne chapters again, as the most recent ones I'd looked at were Sansa in KL ...

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And just to add to what Milady has pointed out, their continued thoughts of one another are specifically associated with their respective developments. Sandor's is linked to a kind of redemption theme, losing his anger - which Sansa prayed for, and shedding the Hound identity. Sansa's relates to psycho-sexual maturation and her gradual development into womanhood. Martin has them growing apart from one another, but it seems to be with the ultimate goal of bringing them closer together.

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@Currawong great to see all the Sansa and Brienne parallels laid out like that. They are two of the only ASOIAF characters who maintain their kindness and compassion despite having their illusions shattered. Makes Brienne's story all the more heartbreaking. The identical age gap between San/San and Jaime/Brienne is another thing that draws their narratives together.

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Great list Milady - I think I was probably misremembering partly because as Queen of Winter says, there is no POV from Sandor to get the equivalent thoughts to those of Jaime and so it is less obvious on his behalf. But given that list, then the San/San and J/B parallels really are incredible and make you wonder where GRRM is taking the two stories. :D Must now go back and re-read the later Sansa / ALayne chapters again, as the most recent ones I'd looked at were Sansa in KL ...

Yes, exactly--you only see him through other characters chapters--that's the only way we get an idea of what goes in inside his head. And I do feel many of the things he says is quite telling indeed, especially when you get into the Arya chapters that he appears in.

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@Currawong great to see all the Sansa and Brienne parallels laid out like that. They are two of the only ASOIAF characters who maintain their kindness and compassion despite having their illusions shattered. Makes Brienne's story all the more heartbreaking. The identical age gap between San/San and Jaime/Brienne is another thing that draws their narratives together.

GRRM interview, Brienne telling Jaime that the Hound has Sansa, Brienne meeting up with Jaime again and the parallel between the two couples point to an eventual meeting of SanSan. This makes me happy!

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It's a testament to the writing how clear Sandor's feelings are reading Arya's POV's.

Not only how often he'd say your sister the pretty little bird (is this an Arya chapter? has Sandor said it yet?), but also the things he was did were driven by the way he feels about her, from taking care of Arya to trying to get a position with Robb. His response when that fails, chopping up an entire tree.

I think Sandor is like Brienne in that respect.

Jaime was off on his merry oblivious way, and thoughts of Brienne would come "unbidden". He'd be walking to the bearpit like, whatever, here's as good as any place to wander, and before you know it, he's smacking Red Ronnet across the planet.

Brienne was much more self-aware, I think, that's why people say she was definitely in love with him. Every place reminded her of him. Everything she did was for him. Every other word out of her mouth when she confessed to the Elder Brother was "Jaime".

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I know, that smile when the interviewer says she's a big fan of the Hound, like, yup, I've heard that before. And then he proceeds to bring up SanSan very deliberately. Although he doesn't say "a little", the interviewer says that about the show.

Oops. You're right, it's the interviewer who uses the term "a little" so I'll refer to GRRM's response in the next line with the "I've played with it."

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It's a testament to the writing how clear Sandor's feelings are reading Arya's POV's.

Not only how often he'd say your sister the pretty little bird (is this an Arya chapter? has Sandor said it yet?), but also the things he was did were driven by the way he feels about her, from taking care of Arya to trying to get a position with Robb. His response when that fails, chopping up an entire tree.

Yes, that was in an Arya chapter....(he said it multiple times, "the Wolf-bitch, wants to kill her sister, the pretty little bird" or something along the lines of that, when he asked her if she had a brother she wanted to kill).

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It's a testament to the writing how clear Sandor's feelings are reading Arya's POV's.

Not only how often he'd say your sister the pretty little bird (is this an Arya chapter? has Sandor said it yet?), but also the things he was did were driven by the way he feels about her, from taking care of Arya to trying to get a position with Robb. His response when that fails, chopping up an entire tree.

I think Sandor is like Brienne in that respect.

Jaime was off on his merry oblivious way, and thoughts of Brienne would come "unbidden". He'd be walking to the bearpit like, whatever, here's as good as any place to wander, and before you know it, he's smacking Red Ronnet across the planet.

Brienne was much more self-aware, I think, that's why people say she was definitely in love with him. Every place reminded her of him. Everything she did was for him. Every other word out of her mouth when she confessed to the Elder Brother was "Jaime".

He does say your sister the pretty bird to Arya. And as with Brienne every other word out of his mouth when he talks and later begs her for mercy is about Sansa. A real pity we don't have a Sandor POV. It would be interesting to be in his head

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Yes, that was in an Arya chapter...

He does say your sister the pretty bird to Arya. And as with Brienne every other word out of his mouth when he talks and later begs her for mercy is about Sansa. A real pity we don't have a Sandor POV. It would be interesting to be in his head

Definitely.

Sorry I wasn't clear, I meant, it was like a checklist for GRRM.

Is this an Arya chapter?

Has Sandor said it yet?

Done. :)

I found all of these for another thread:

"Seven hells. The little sister."

...

"This one's own sister"

...

"I watched them beat your sister"

...

"I never beat your sister"

...

"Or maybe a sister? Sansa. That's it, isn't it? The wolf bitch wants to kill the pretty bird."

...

"I saved your sister's life too"

...

"Your sister sang me a sweet little song."

...

"You ought to sing me a pretty little song, the way your sister did."

...

"I thought your sister was the one with a head full of songs"

...

"What wife?"

...

The Hound sat on the bench closest to the door. His mouth twitched, but only the burned side. "She ought to dip him in wildfire and cook him. Or tickle him till the moon turns black." He raised his wine cup and drained it straightaway.

...

The Hound poured a cup of wine for Arya and another for himself, and drank it down while staring at the hearthfire. "The little bird flew away, did she?"

...

"A proper little lady. Not like her bloody sister."

...

He made a queer sound, and it took her a moment to realize he was sobbing. "And the little bird, your pretty sister, I stood there in my white cloak and let them beat her."

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Agreed on the self-awareness of Brienne, Le Cygne.

OT and crackpot: but the description of Bronze Yohn as tall with the white hair and "gnarled" hands, made me think of a weirwood tree. Rag and I have been interested in his bronze armour with the runes, and I wonder if this can be added to the theory that BY will be instrumental in helping Sansa in some way given the First men affiliation of House Royce.

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I see. Thanks for clarifying. Interesting take on his thought process during writing and ensuring each remembers the other.

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Definitely.

Sorry I wasn't clear, I meant, it was like a checklist for GRRM.

Is this an Arya chapter?

Has Sandor said it yet?

Done. :)

I found all of these for another thread:

Ahhh, understood! :)

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Agreed on the self-awareness of Brienne, Le Cygne.

OT and crackpot: but the description of Bronze Yohn as tall with the white hair and "gnarled" hands, made me think of a weirwood tree. Rag and I have been interested in his bronze armour with the runes, and I wonder if this can be added to the theory that BY will be instrumental in helping Sansa in some way given the First men affiliation of House Royce.

If you're crackpotting, then so am I. :) I think there is significance in the runes, the First Men affiliation, and also the House Royce motto, "We Remember."

Significantly, BY has met Sansa at least once. Definitely at the tournament, and almost certainly earlier at Winterfell. Sansa remembers him visiting Winterfell - and besting Ned in mock combat! She also remembered him talking with her mother - that mother whom Sansa so closely resembles.

I've noted before that hair dye makes for a poor disguise. It's true that Sansa has grown up since the tournament, but she has the same blue eyes, general features, and probably mannerisms and bearing as well. And she looks a lot like Catelyn - and like Lysa, even if Lysa had put on weight and looked old for her age. Already, BY seems to have some suspicion as to "Alayne's" possible identity. "Do I know you, girl?" is a bit abrupt, but it sounds like BY is at least suspicious as to why this Tully-looking girl is masquerading as LF's daughter. (And "Do I know you?" might be code for "Yes, I damn well know you, Sansa Stark, I'm just biding my time until it's safe to help you.")

I'm also wondering how much Lady Waynwood knows. Her dressing-down of Lyn Corbray ("The girl is young and gently bred, and has seen enough horrors. Mind your tongue, ser.") makes me wonder if she knows more than she is letting on. She could know that "Alayne" saw Lysa fly out the Moon Door for the "horrors," but "gently bred?" That doesn't sound like it would refer to a bastard daughter of a minor lord whose mother was allegedly from Essos. It could be a reference to her allegedly being raised in a motherhouse, but I wonder.

We also know that Mya Stone - a king's bastard - was not fit to marry a noble knight of the Vale. Mychel Redfort ended up marrying "up" to Bronze Yohn's daughter. (It also strikes me as odd that Alys Arryn, sister of a great lord, didn't marry another great lord - she married quite far down the scale, but then the Waynwoods are a highly regarded family). Yes, LF may be financing Lady Waynwood (or so he says!) but going so far as to let her ward, the heir to the Vale, marry the bastard daughter of a minor lord who was not good enough to marry a Tully? (Of course, this idea that HtH will marry "Alayne" comes from Petyr's mouth and we all know what a bullshitter LF is. The truth might well be very different.)

Regardless of how much Anya Waynwood knows, I don't think it's an accident that Bronze Yohn Royce 1) met Sansa at the Tourney of the Hand and 2) had actually been a visitor at Winterfell and knew Ned and Cat quite well. I think "We Remember" is very significant.

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Great list Milady - I think I was probably misremembering partly because as Queen of Winter says, there is no POV from Sandor to get the equivalent thoughts to those of Jaime and so it is less obvious on his behalf. But given that list, then the San/San and J/B parallels really are incredible and make you wonder where GRRM is taking the two stories. :D Must now go back and re-read the later Sansa / ALayne chapters again, as the most recent ones I'd looked at were Sansa in KL ...

Yes, the fact that we don't get Sandor as a POV makes it a bit trickier to follow, definitely.

Although I tend to think once you notice that it's there, the Jaime/Brienne and Sandor/Sansa relationships enhance eachother since they are so similarly built up, with a build up where they don't understand each other and suffer from initial dislike, then you have Sandor saving Sansa from the riot and Jaime's beautiful "I dreamed of you". From there it's clear there is something going on, and then while they are parted, they keep popping up in each other's thoughts.

Sandor is fairly subtle, since it's through Arya's ( and eventually Brienne's) POV so it's not as clear as Jaime and Brienne's which take place in their POV chapters. But you know, once you know what to look for. :)

Jaime was off on his merry oblivious way, and thoughts of Brienne would come "unbidden". He'd be walking to the bearpit like, whatever, here's as good as any place to wander, and before you know it, he's smacking Red Ronnet across the planet.

Brienne was much more self-aware, I think, that's why people say she was definitely in love with him. Every place reminded her of him. Everything she did was for him. Every other word out of her mouth when she confessed to the Elder Brother was "Jaime".

Hah, I love the scene where Jaime smacks Red Ronnet. It's one of my favourites.

Not totally sure Brienne is really self aware though. She's clearly aware that she now respects Jaime and what he thinks is important to her, but she still seems to consciously think that Renly is her no 1. In the famous bath scene when she thinks of Renly and he turns into Jaime she tries to force it back to Renly again. For us readers it's fairly obvious she prefers Jaime and that he's "over written" Renly, but I wonder if Brienne would admit as much.

Sansa in this regard is "further along" in that she's connecting Sandor with her marriage bed and kissing, so strangely she seems to be admitting it to herself more than Brienne is admitting her feelings for Jaime, in a way. Although when Brienne thinks she should go back to KL and cry on Jaime's shoulder and wonder if he'd seen her as weak, but "isn't that what men want", it's very close to admitting it though. :)

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We also know that Mya Stone - a king's bastard - was not fit to marry a noble knight of the Vale. Mychel Redfort ended up marrying "up" to Bronze Yohn's daughter. (It also strikes me as odd that Alys Arryn, sister of a great lord, didn't marry another great lord - she married quite far down the scale, but then the Waynwoods are a highly regarded family). Yes, LF may be financing Lady Waynwood (or so he says!) but going so far as to let her ward, the heir to the Vale, marry the bastard daughter of a minor lord who was not good enough to marry a Tully? (Of course, this idea that HtH will marry "Alayne" comes from Petyr's mouth and we all know what a bullshitter LF is. The truth might well be very different.)

Yeah, but Mya was not acknowledged by Robert, neither was she supported by him in any way, so she was really no different from the average smallfolk woman. Alayne is acknowledged by LF and LF's fortune is backing her up, which makes all the difference in her marriage prospects.

Plus LF has risen an awful lot since Hoster rejected his marriage offer for Catelyn, being de facto Lord of the vale and de jure Lord of the Riverlands.

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Here's a collection of the times the Hound talks of Sansa during the ASOS chapters in which he interacts with Arya:

Arya VI:

The Hound stared at her with no flicker of recognition. “And who was this Mycah, boy?”

“I’m not a boy! But Mycah was. He was a butcher’s boy and you killed him. Jory said you cut him near in half, and he never even had a sword.” She could feel them looking at her now, the women and the children and the men who called themselves the knights of the hollow hill. “Who’s this now?” someone asked.

The Hound answered. “Seven hells. The little sister. The brat who tossed Joff’s pretty sword in the river.” He gave a bark of laughter. “Don’t you know you’re dead?”

“Did you see the boy attack Prince Joffrey?” Lord Beric Dondarrion asked the Hound.

“I heard it from the royal lips. It’s not my place to question princes.” Clegane jerked his hands toward Arya. “This one’s own sister told the same tale when she stood before your precious Robert.”

Arya IX:

“I never beat your sister,” the Hound said. “But I’ll beat you if you make me. Stop trying to think up ways to kill me. None of it will do you a bit of good.”

It wasn’t the first time he had talked of killing the Mountain. “But he’s your brother,” Arya said dubiously.

“Didn’t you ever have a brother you wanted to kill?” He laughed again. “Or maybe a sister?” He must have seen something in her face then, for he leaned closer. “Sansa. That’s it, isn’t it? The wolf bitch wants to kill the pretty bird.”

“No,” Arya spat back at him. “I’d like to kill you.”

“Because I hacked your little friend in two? I’ve killed a lot more than him, I promise you. You think that makes me some monster. Well, maybe it does, but I saved your sister’s life too. The day the mob pulled her off her horse, I cut through them and brought her back to the castle, else she would have gotten what Lollys Stokeworth got. And she sang for me. You didn’t know that, did you? Your sister sang me a sweet little song.”

“You’re lying,” she said at once.

Arya XII

“Away,” he said. “That’s all you need to know. You’re not worth spit to me now, and I don’t want to hear your whining. I should have let you run into that bloody castle.”

“You should have,” she agreed, thinking of her mother.

“You’d be dead if I had. You ought to thank me. You ought to sing me a pretty little song, the way your sister did.”

“Did you hit her with an axe too?”

“We should go back,” she suddenly decided. “We should go back to the Twins and get my mother. She can’t be dead. We have to help her.”

“I thought your sister was the one with a head full of songs,” the Hound growled. “Frey might have kept your mother alive to ransom, that’s true. But there’s no way in seven hells I’m going to pluck her out of his castle all by my bloody self.”

“Not by yourself. I’d come too.”

Arya XIII:

“The Imp, it’s thought. Him and his little wife.”

“What wife?”

“I forgot, you’ve been hiding under a rock. The northern girl. Winterfell’s daughter. We heard she killed the king with a spell, and afterward changed into a wolf with big leather wings like a bat, and flew out a tower window. But she left the dwarf behind and Cersei means to have his head.”

That’s stupid, Arya thought. Sansa only knows songs, not spells, and she’d never marry the Imp.

The Hound sat on the bench closest the door. His mouth twitched, but only the burned side. “She ought to dip him in wildfire and cook him. Or tickle him till the moon turns black.” He raised his wine cup and drained it straightaway.

The Hound poured a cup of wine for Arya and another for himself, and drank it down while staring at the hearthfire. “The little bird flew away, did she? Well, bloody good for her. She shit on the Imp’s head and flew off.”

“A pretty girl, I hear,” said the Tickler. “Honey sweet.” He smacked his lips and smiled.

“And courteous,” the Hound agreed. “A proper little lady. Not like her bloody sister.”

He made a queer sound, and it took her a moment to realize he was sobbing. “And the little bird, your pretty sister, I stood there in my white cloak and let them beat her. I took the bloody song, she never gave it. I meant to take her too. I should have. I should have fucked her bloody and ripped her heart out before leaving her for that dwarf.” A spasm of pain twisted his face. “Do you mean to make me beg, bitch? Do it! The gift of mercy... avenge your little Michael...”

I always found that the most revealing part is the pattern that can be observed here: Sandor’s appearance in ASOS after he left King’s Landing begins and ends with thoughts of Sansa in his mind, because in the beginning he frames Arya not as Eddard Stark’s daughter or Catelyn Tully’s but as the little bird’s younger sister, subconsciously revealing whose face’s flashing across his mind. As they travel across the riverlands, we can see he talks of her a lot, and often without being asked, on his own initiative, which for an elder interlocutor would be quite an avalanche of clues as obvious as sunlight, yet Arya is young and thus what lies beneath his words slipped by. That he mentions her so many times also means that the frequency of his thinking about her without verbalising it must be exponentially higher.

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It's an interesting question to think about :) I believe it's how one defines being self aware. Sansa thinks of Sandor, in very intimate ways - kissing, the marriage bed etc, but there's not a missing element where she hasn't yet connected it to her own feelings, at least not explicitly. I guess one could argue the same with Brienne, but she seems to understand the centrality of Jaime in her life.

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