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brashcandy

From Pawn to Player: Rethinking Sansa XVIII

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Sansa in this regard is "further along" in that she's connecting Sandor with her marriage bed and kissing, so strangely she seems to be admitting it to herself more than Brienne is admitting her feelings for Jaime, in a way. Although when Brienne thinks she should go back to KL and cry on Jaime's shoulder and wonder if he'd seen her as weak, but "isn't that what men want", it's very close to admitting it though. :)

You are right, that was a defining moment for Brienne. And I didn't mean to sell Sansa short, she's gone off the deep end, too.

As they travel across the riverlands, we can see he talks of her a lot, and often without being asked, on his own initiative, which for an elder interlocutor would be quite an avalanche of clues as obvious as sunlight, yet Arya is young and thus what lies beneath his words slipped by. That he mentions her so many times also means that the frequency of his thinking about her without verbalising it must be exponentially higher.

I don't think Arya realized he's in love with her sister, but I think something must have gotten through, that's part of why she changed. I think if we'd seen his POV it would have looked a lot like Brienne's (just wanted to clarify here, I mean the frequent thoughts of her, like you said).

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You are right, that was a defining moment for Brienne. And I didn't mean to sell Sansa short, she's gone off the deep end, too.

I know how you meant this and I agree. But taking that single sentence out of context is absolutely hilarious.

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Don't think that one is mine. With sarcasm and alcohol anything can come out of my mouth but I don't drink and post as a general rule.

That's a shame :) And yes, I think Rapsie got you confused with RAGNAROK.

I actually forsee a positive end state between Tyrion and Sansa.

I think there's a good likelihood this could happen, but I also believe that there's still some interim drama to play out, especially considering Tyrion's hatred for Lysa Tully, and the very real grievances he has against Littlefinger, who is closely associated with Sansa.

I honestly have no idea what Sandor's fate will be. If you want crackpot ideas for Sansa and Sandor ending up together I'd point to the Dreadfort needing a new lord. If Jon ends up King or Lord of Winterfell and Sansa wants to marry Sandor, getting him a title and a patch of land to eliminate the station difference isn't going to be hard.

Nice crackpot.

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That's a shame :) And yes, I think Rapsie got you confused with RAGNAROK.

Guess who got a crocodile in spelling..... And not realising you we're different posters. :dunce:

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If you want a really odd comparison with Brienne, as it relates to Sansa, consider what Brienne has in common with Tyrion. Of course, at first glance, nothing - in fact worse than nothing, it is like they're set up as opposites. Yet underneath it, there is the fact that they're both considered freakish and ugly, and scorned by nearly everyone for it. Inside them is a lot of deep pain, and a desire to be desired (at all). The sting Tyrion feels from Sansa's not kneeling comes from this, and like Brienne's painful memories of Ronnet and his rose, both have a "that's all you'll ever get from me" vibe that reinforces the way they have been ostracized and put down their whole lives. Both of them are also quite driven to survive the taunts and prove themselves worthy, leading them to knowingly throw themselves into great danger.

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Poetical and Musical Illustrations of Sansa, Part 3

This poem, "Gretchen am Spinnrade" ("Gretchen at the Spinning Wheel") is from Goethe's Faust, Part I. After Milady of York posted her analysis of the Unkiss as a mismemory signifying sexual desire, I thought the song that Franz Schubert made of this would be appropriate since it is the most famous song about a kiss/kisses in the art song literature. It is the first great song Schubert composed, and he was only 16 when he wrote it. (There would be more fine settings of Goethe to come.)

I am not going to try to put this poem in its context in Goethe's play, as that might lead to some unfortunate character identifications, but just take it as the passionate expression of desire that it is.

First here is the text of the song with translation:

Meine Ruh' ist hin,

Mein Herz ist schwer,

Ich finde sie nimmer

Und nimmermehr.

Wo ich ihn nicht hab

Ist mir das Grab,

Die ganze Welt

Ist mir vergällt.

Mein armer Kopf

Ist mir verrückt,

Mein armer Sinn

Ist mir zerstückt.

Meine Ruh' ist hin,

Mein Herz ist schwer,

Ich finde sie nimmer

Und nimmermehr.

Nach ihm nur schau

Ich Zum Fenster hinaus,

Nach ihm nur geh ich

Aus dem Haus.

Sein hoher Gang,

Sein' edle Gestalt,

Seine Mundes Lächeln,

Seiner Augen Gewalt,

Und seiner Redem Zauberfluß,

Sein Händedruck,

Und ach, sein Kuß!

Meine Ruh' ist hin,

Mein Herz ist schwer,

Ich finde sie nimmer

Und nimmermehr.

Mein Busen drängt sich

Nach ihm hin.

[Ach]1 dürft ich fassen

Und halten ihn,

Und küssen ihn,

So wie ich wollt,

An seinen Küssen

Vergehen sollt!

My peace is gone,

My heart is heavy,

I will find it never

and never more.

Where I do not have him,

That is the grave,

The whole world

Is bitter to me.

My poor head

Is crazy to me,

My poor mind

Is torn apart.

My peace is gone,

My heart is heavy,

I will find it never

and never more.

For him only, I look

Out the window

Only for him do I go

Out of the house.

His tall walk,

His noble figure,

His mouth's smile,

His eyes' power,

And his mouth's

Magic flow,

His handclasp,

and ah! his kiss!

My peace is gone,

My heart is heavy,

I will find it never

and never more.

My bosom urges itself

toward him.

Ah, might I grasp

And hold him!

And kiss him,

As I would wish,

At his kisses

I should die!

I once heard a radio presentation in which an actress read an English translation of the poem and gave the line "And ah, his kiss!" rather a wistful reading. The presenter then played a performance of Schubert's song in which that line is given an intense climax and the song pauses as Gretchen reflects on what she has just felt. This demonstrated to me just how much enhancement a poem enhanced by music can receive.

I have a bit more to say, and more you tube links to add, but it is bedtime so I will leave that to tomorrow.

Christa Ludwig with Geoffrey Parsons, piano:

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=A8zhdstnFuU

Lucia Popp:

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=jSneYMidY-k

Karita Mattila:

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8g9n3V6aPCQ

Finnish soprano more known for opera than song, but has a big attractive voice with which she gives more intensity to the song.

Renee Fleming:

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=vrgnGgOWJ2w

This has a string ensemble instead of a piano, an arrangement of which I would disapprove, but it's Fleming who is a wonderful singer so I suppose it is okay :)

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If you want a really odd comparison with Brienne, as it relates to Sansa, consider what Brienne has in common with Tyrion. Of course, at first glance, nothing - in fact worse than nothing, it is like they're set up as opposites.

At second and third glance for me, too. I don't see any similarities at all, other than appearance issues.

Brienne is not at all self-oriented, in fact, the opposite. She cares about others and expects nothing in return. She gets enough out of just doing something good. She would consider it an honor to die for Renly, and Renly knows this. She pledges herself to Lady Catelyn, and is so focused on restoring her daughters to her that when she dies, she feels so lost that Jaime comes up with the mission to find Sansa. She feels deeply for Jaime, and yet most of all, she wants to restore his loss of honor, and when she avenges him, she says, that was for Jaime. But she expects nothing in return.

Old-Growth, I meant to say, that's nice! :)

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Just a thought. I watched the movie version of Les Miserables. In one scene Jean Valjean states that he was filled with hate until Cosette came into his life. Through her he learnt to love. Theirs was a father-

daughter relationship but it made me think of Sandor whio is filled with anger and hate. By meeting and loving Sansa he changes. We see this in how he is with Arya. His not very pleasant but he takes care of her after the RW, after which he can't ransom her. I believe he does this because of his feelings

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Thanks, Le Cygne.

Preview of coming attractions: I was reminded of another Schubert song that should fit Sandor on the Quiet Isle very well.

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Just a thought. I watched the movie version of Les Miserables. In one scene Jean Valjean states that he was filled with hate until Cosette came into his life. Through her he learnt to love. Theirs was a father-

daughter relationship but it made me think of Sandor whio is filled with anger and hate. By meeting and loving Sansa he changes. We see this in how he is with Arya. His not very pleasant but he takes care of her after the RW, after which he can't ransom her. I believe he does this because of his feelings

It is interesting this thought. At the musical you can find a Cosette song:

(lyrics) that makes me think about Sansa and her tears and the castle on a cloud that she saw.

But they are at the book where I find more connections with Sansa and, for my surprise, it is at the Fantine character, where at a moment she is described her skin turn to steel.

It is truly at the book where I have being surprised finding a lot of hound and wolves references. And the change produced at Jean ValJean at his interaction with the Bishop is where I have see connection to Sandor change and the Elder Brother.

In the book is best explained than at the movies or the musical. First of all, I must explain that the Bishop Bienvenu Myriel is based on the Bishop of Dignes at Victor Hugo´s time Bienvenu de Moillis.

It is presented as a sinner that got a faith conversion.

Maybe the most disturbing is the possible connections between Jean Valjean and Sandor Clegane (both with great physical strength, desbelief about religion, and they came out from prision without tears, but at a point both began to cry, and a lot almost as if they couldn´t stop it).

Old-Growth I have enjoy a lot your music selection.

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Thanks for the explanation Bygona. I'm beginning to read the book in English and will definitely look for the similarities you've pointed out.

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A Song for Sandor:

This is Franz Schubert again, with the poem a rather free translation of part of Sir Walter Scott's "Lady of the Lake". This is the original English:

Soldier, rest! thy warfare o'er,

Sleep the sleep that knows not breaking;

Dream of battled fields no more,

Days of danger, nights of waking.

In our isle's enchanted hall,

Hands unseen thy couch are strewing,

Fairy strains of music fall,

Every sense in slumber dewing.

Soldier, rest! thy warfare o'er,

Dream of fighting fields no more:

Sleep the sleep that knows not breaking,

Morn of toil, nor night of waking.

No rude sound shall reach thine ear,

Armour's clang, or war-steed champing,

Trump nor pibroch summon here

Mustering clan, or squadron tramping;

Yet the lark's shrill fife may come

At the day-break from the fallow,

And the bittern sound his drum,

Booming from the sedgy shallow.

Ruder sounds shall none be near,

Guards nor warders challenge here,

Here's no war-steed's neigh and champing,

Shouting clans, or squadrons stamping.

Sir Walter Scott

Schubert's title is "Raste Krieger", which means "Rest Soldier". I found two standalone performances by two singers we have not heard from as of yet: Janet Baker (yea! finally!) and Christine Schaefer. The Baker entry includes subtitles in both English and German so I hope I can add the German to the above later rather than just now.

In case you were wondering:

pi·broch  (pbr)n.A series of variations on a martial theme or traditional dirge for the highland bagpipes.

Now one might suppose that the text means that our soldier is dead (and the hound is indeed gone according to the elder brother on the Quiet Isle) but I take it that he is just in a special place---I think that the Quiet Isle can qualify as such.

Janet Baker with Gerald Moore, piano:

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=PYaCaUM2ixM

Christine Schaefer:

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=vzOCokM1sO4

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Great poem Old-Growth, and as Elba said very fitting for Sandor. The lines which mention no 'rude song'reaching his ear, and the 'war-steed champing' would certainly support our contention that Stranger's still cantankerous presence on the Isle indicates Sandor will return and would not have lost his ferocity.

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I've been kept away from my computer and haven't participated much lately but I'd like to thank Mladen and Old-Growth for their great posts :)

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Oh, I neglected to supply any information about the poem. Here is a link to the wiki source copy thereof:

http://en.m.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Lady_of_the_Lake

Ellen's song occurs near the end of the first canto of the poem. Ellen is the daughter of the head of clan Douglas, who is hiding out on an island in a lake because of a conflict with King James V of Scotland. The "soldier" she addresses is a hunter who has pursued a stag to the shore of the lake and left the rest of his party behind. Ellen is in a boat, rows to the shore, collects the hunter and stag, and they row off to the island. She sings the song to him after they are in the keep on the island. He gives her a false name, but we later discover that he is in fact James V himself. To see what happens later consult the poem.

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I was re-watching Downton Abbey season 1 and then a scene in which Mary tells the story of Andromeda and Perseus struck me. Such great Sansa parallel. I have to say that Mary and Sansa have so much in common, and I love them both.

P.S. That would be great sub-topic. Where in modern literature/TV/movies you see Sansa?

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The lines which mention no 'rude song'reaching his ear, and the 'war-steed champing' would certainly support our contention that Stranger's still cantankerous presence on the Isle indicates Sandor will return and would not have lost his ferocity.

I hadn't thought about Stranger vis-a-vis Ellen's song but yes that horse could reawaken Sandor's martial spirit under the right circumstances. It seems clear that the Brothers of Silence will not have much luck turning Stranger into a plow horse. :)

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