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brashcandy

From Pawn to Player: Rethinking Sansa XVIII

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@ Ragnorak-very interesting info on Jon.

Mahaut, I really enjoyed reading your essay. The legend of the dog teaching the women how to make fire, and then being told he had to marry the one who was sitting on the log was reminiscent of wildling culture :) We've also noted in the past how that night of the Blackwater has most of the elements of a Westerosi wedding.

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Wow, there have been some really spectacular posts in the last day or so! Kudos everyone!

I hope to have what I'm currently working on (well... one of my projects from a few months back, assigned to me by Brash, that got sidetracked :unsure: ) finished up relatively soon. *crossing fingers*

So hold those thoughts about dogs and fire.... ;)

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Very thought provoking essay Bran Vras! It speaks to the intricacy of Martin's writing - wheels within wheels within wheels... I agree that SR's early introduction and pivotal hereditary position all point to him having a larger part to play. Holding out hope that Sansa can protect him and he can blossom in a more healthy environment.

I'm not sure about SR having actual warning ability but his sensitivity definitely reminds me of Sansa's empathy - if the warning ability comes to the Stark kids via their First Men heritage, perhaps the empathy comes via the Tullys and has come together most strongly in Bran?

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Mahaut, I really enjoyed reading your essay. The legend of the dog teaching the women how to make fire, and then being told he had to marry the one who was sitting on the log was reminiscent of wildling culture :) We've also noted in the past how that night of the Blackwater has most of the elements of a Westerosi wedding.

I remember that and I think it was a brilliant interpretation. If you add the dog-fire-sexuality association, the wedding symbolism is even stronger since the dog, in a marriage context, also stands for marital fidelity.

I hope to have what I'm currently working on (well... one of my projects from a few months back, assigned to me by Brash, that got sidetracked :unsure: ) finished up relatively soon. *crossing fingers*

So hold those thoughts about dogs and fire.... ;)

Oh, this sounds very promising Queen of Winter ^_^

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Oh that poem is beautiful Old Growth. I do think it describes Sandor well. It reminded me of the Mother's song that Sansa sings to the Hound.

Thanks, Old-Growth, the music/performances are beautiful. Same here, Elba. And I love the way GRRM uses the song to tie everything together, what she's thinking before and after that scene. Before, she prays to the Mother not only to keep him safe, but to help him on a deeper level, because she knows what's really troubling him. Then we see this is no ordinary battle, as he relives his darkest hour (the trauma triggered by the wildfire). I love the way GRRM signals why Sandor is really there, to protect her, she thinks of Lady, and he is there. And it takes her a moment to realize what's going on, but she catches up beautifully. She sings for the Mother to help him, but she's the one who does. And that's underscored when she touches his face and finds tears there. Then GRRM doesn't leave it there, he follows up with her recalling that night. "But Sansa understood. She knew the secret of his burned face. It was only the fire he feared." Wonderful character development unfolding here (and wonderful writing).

Also, thanks everyone for the interesting contributions!

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Bran Vras and Mahaut, great essays! There are layers of symbols to unpack, aren't there? (Sorry I haven't had the time to comment as I usually do lately.)

That’s so true KRBD !

When I see how all these dog symbolisms match Sandor’s character I feel like rereading the entire series with a dictionary of symbols :D .

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Then GRRM doesn't leave it there, he follows up with her recalling that night. "But Sansa understood. She knew the secret of his burned face. It was only the fire he feared." Wonderful character development unfolding here (and wonderful writing).

I agree :)

---

Reposting some astute comments on Littlefinger from Milady of York in this thread. I particularly appreciated her observation on the mother-son incest angle with LF, something which hasn't been really explored up to this point:

Littlefinger undoubtedly knows what happens in his brothels and how they’re run, and even if he didn’t personally train Jeyne, he’s wholly responsible for it. He sent her there in the first place, and she was trained as a prostitute, on his orders and with his blessing, because had he wanted just to shelter her, he could’ve given instructions in this regard.

A clinician cannot diagnose paedophiliac tendencies on a single case, because that can be an isolated circumstance that can be attributed to a different diagnosis, but for Littlefinger we have three instances:

- He has no problem in ordering the rape and corruption of an 11-year-old girl. The terrible thing is that Jeyne Poole was raped in Littlefinger’s brothel still being a child, because she hadn’t bled yet. One of the primary criteria for paedophilia is that the girl or the boy hasn’t hit puberty yet. From then onwards, it’s not paedophilia. It’s still illegal in many places, but not paedophilia.

- He lusts after another 11-year-old child who’s not had her moonblood either, and who’s an additional bonus point I’ll touch later.

- He’s no problem in providing boys for Corbray to rape them, and permits his presence near his stepson despite the child’s protestations. A person who’s no scruples about allowing others to rape minors with his aquiescence does not have them about corrupting minors himself. Many procurers of boys and girls for the prostitution market are paedophiles themselves, though not always.

Now, over to his obsession with Sansa:

- It’s not her he cares about. His first words to her show that it was Catelyn he saw in that girl.

- She’s 13 now and flowered, so the paedophilia criterion no longer applies, but the molestation and sexual assault of a minor still applies. He’s already molesting her, he kisses and gropes her against her will; he will not rape her in the grabber fashion because he prefers the groomer fashion.

- He wants her to call him father, to be his daughter in her heart as well, and yet, he wants her as a lover as well. The incest undercurrent here is double: father-daughter and mother-son. Yes, Littlefinger has incest issues on all sides, as a father towards Alayne, and as a son towards his own mother. He was the one who choose Alayne for Sansa, his mother’s name. The perversity of it all is that he projects his own unresolved issues with his mother on her as well as Catelyn by willingly and consciously giving his mother’s name to the child he plans to groom to become his lover in the place of the child’s mother. As a clinician, Milady knows this because of the pattern in his molesting of her is typical of mother-son incest, subtler than the father-daughter dynamic laypersons usually recognise on sight.

Considering all this, it’s curious that someone still wonders why Littlefinger gets more criticism than other men involved with younger women. And I’ve only touched the sexual aspect; others have mentioned the other problematic points.

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That is a brilliant post by Milday. The Mother/Son incest angle is a particularly astute catch.

In general it paints a picture of Littlefinger imposing three separate identities on Sansa (who he is already using for her claim) while she wants to be loved for herself. As disturbing as that analysis is, it does paint a picture of a Littfinger with a huge blindspot when it comes to Sansa.

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Thank you, Brashcandy. Allow me to expand a wee bit on the mother-son incest:

Mother-son incest has a different pattern than father-daughter incest, as it usually begins with emotional incest, less frequent in father-daughter incest, where force is also more commonly employed to either abuse or downright rape the child, and the motivations behind this unhealthy dynamic tends to vary depending on whether it’s the mother or the son who started it. In our case study, this originated in Littlefinger himself, not in his mother, about whom we know nothing apart from her name.

When it’s the son who initiates the incestuous bond, it’s usually emotional incest rather than the physical incest that you can find more commonly in father-daughter cases, and as such, plus the fact that it’s less talked about, people don’t detect it immediately. It’s less obvious. It can become physical, of course. Also, seduction and grooming are more common in mother-son incest than the other type, and if the son later repeats the incest with his own or if he molests a child later in life, he’s going to commit it preferably without leaving physical evidence, because his own case was like that as mother-son physical incest doesn’t leave evidence. Littlefinger is just doing that, he uses grooming and seduction and his molestation of Sansa doesn’t leave any physical evidence. But as it’s a double incest, and he’s also playing the father figure, and his grooming of her is still on the initial stages, it’s quite likely that he will try to force herself on her.

Sigmund Freud would’ve said that the origin is an unresolved and badly sublimated Oedipus Complex that persisted into adulthood, and that it’s subconscious. Milady tends to disagree with good old Dr. Sigi on almost everything, and this is no different, because it’s a theory clinicians have disproved after years of study and research: sons who begin the incestuous bond are marked by emotional rejection and/or deprivation by a woman in their youth, and later they project that and their frustration for an absent or unsatisfying partner on the victim, consciously. We cannot say much about Littlefinger’s mother, she could’ve died when he was young, depriving him of a healthy female role model, but we do know that Catelyn did reject him. But it was him who became obsessed with her despite the bright-as-sunlight signs she gave him of not being interested in him romantically.

In these cases, it’s not out of the ordinary to find emotional immaturity, bitterness, and that the boy resents authority, especially his father, he feels diminished and inadequate in comparison to other men whom he wants to surpass, so it’s not uncommon to find in the boy fantasies of becoming someone better and grander than his father and other men nor that he delights in the downfall of others, and he usually looks for women he can protect, take care of and be the “hero” he thinks she needs, because he needs to control and manipulate.

Now, let’s go to what’s in the text:

As we all know, Littlefinger lusted after Sansa since she was eleven, and the first thing he noticed about her was her resemblance to the woman he’s convinced himself he loved, thus imposing the first identity on this child: Catelyn Tully II, and though not yet flowered and his supposed “love” still alive, he asked Cersei for her hand. Then he plots to get her out of King’s Landing and off to the Vale, and even though he’s already conscious of what he wants from her goes into sexual territory, as shown by his attitude in the council meeting and his asking Cersei to marry the child, he chooses to impose himself as her father, thus beginning the father-daughter incest, and the fact that she isn’t his biological daughter doesn’t really matter, because he himself asked her to be his daughter in all aspects, in her heart as well, he demands to be called her father whilst he kisses her and gropes her, and for outsiders, she’s his daughter. This is the second identity which allows him to commit emotional incest as well as physical incest. When Sansa chose Catelyn as her fake name, he doesn’t approve, and with good reason, as it’s too obvious; but instead chooses his own mother’s name, Alayne, for her; thus imposing the third identity on the girl: Alayne Stone. The face of her mother and the name of his mother.

Disturbing.

Some may argue that it was just a name he thought about in the spur of the moment. I say there’s more. Why choose consciously and deliberately the name of his mother of all people for the girl he knows bloody well he wants in his bed? Why don’t let her choose another name, or suggest that she think about a different one instead of choosing it himself without giving her an opportunity to speak? Elemental, Dr. Freud. That’s also part of the pattern in incestuous fantasising: when the perpetrator is with a surrogate instead of the object of his desire, he either fantasises about the other or gives the other pet names or fake names with a meaning the other doesn’t realise, that allows the fact of incest to be both stated and dissimulated.

There’s a lot more to the psychology of incest, of course, but this is all Milady can explain in a succinct manner to you ladies and sers :).

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Very interesting, Milady. Sansa has quite a few incest plots in her storyline on close analysis. She was the one who inadvertently revealed the truth of Joffrey's parentage to her father; there's the entire perversion with LF, and her relationship with SR oscillates between her acting a mother figure and the boy's romantic crush. As Rag noted above, this all highlights just how unhealthy LF's presence is in Sansa's life, but also gives reason to suspect that she will be able to undermine his authority given the dominance of these fantasies that he has used to construct 'Alayne'.

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Milady, allow me to :bowdown: . It was indeed very interesting.

When it comes to Littlefinger, I have to relate to GOT show, when he disscus highlords with Ros. When he says `I can`t win in their game, but I am going to f**k them. That`s who I am.` The psychological issues LF has runs very deep to ambitious boy who was denied by his love interest. His interest in Sansa is sinister, not because he loves or at least wants her. It is because he sees Cat. Even after Catelyn is dead, even after his ambitions of becoming highlord are satisfied, even after he has Sansa, he can`t hide the obvious truth - `Only Cat`.

The most interesting thing is that he is drawn to Sansa. Her Tully look, lack of Stark exterior edgyness, reminds him of Cat. Cat he was friend with, Cat whom he loved, Cat before Brandon and the duel. Unfortunately for all his plans, Sansa isn`t Cat, she isn`t Tully, she isn`t mild as rivers usually are, she is strong as snows of the North. Inside, she is Stark. And his inability to see her, his inability to understand her, and look beyond the image he created, will at the end be his doom.

Milady, again, all the compliments go to you and your wonderful post.

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Very interesting, Milady. Sansa has quite a few incest plots in her storyline on close analysis. She was the one who inadvertently revealed the truth of Joffrey's parentage to her father; there's the entire perversion with LF, and her relationship with SR oscillates between her acting a mother figure and the boy's romantic crush. As Rag noted above, this all highlights just how unhealthy LF's presence is in Sansa's life, but also gives reason to suspect that she will be able to undermine his authority given the dominance of these fantasies that he has used to construct 'Alayne'.

Poor Sansa. Harry-the-Heir is starting to look positively wholesome in comparison with her other relationships, despite his apparently being Robert Baratheon Lite. At least it's doubtful that Harry will confuse Sansa-Alayne with his mother or hers!

Excellent analyses by Milady. I would never have caught the son/mother incest angle in the already creepy LF/Cat/Sansa relationships.

I still cherish hope for a Littlefinger/Lady Stoneheart encounter where she scares the living daylights out of him before hanging him; but I'd be equally pleased to see Sansa destroy him instead.

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Raksha opined:

"I still cherish hope for a Littlefinger/Lady Stoneheart encounter where she scares the living daylights out of him before hanging him; but I'd be equally pleased to see Sansa destroy him instead."

This is possible but unlikely, on present evidence. As Stoneheart is fixated on vengeance against the Freys, it would seem she is not headed East so Lord Petyr must head West for this confrontation to happen. He seems well ensconced in the Gates of the Moon for the present, so something must draw him westwards. Suppose then that the Mad Mouse arranges a kidnapping and in order to confuse the pursuit heads West towards Riverrun/Casterly Rock rather than South along the coast to Kings Landing. First drastic assumption: The kidnappers make it thru the mountains without getting grabbed by the mountain clans. Second assumption: Littlefinger is able to put together a pursuit force led by him that is small enough not have unfortunate side-effects vis-a-vis the Vale Lords but large enough to avoid attack by the clans.

I assume that the kidnappers make it almost to Riverrun before being intercepted by Stonehearts men who seize them and take Sansa off to Stonehearts cave but are tracked by Littlefingers party to the cave. Next drastic assumption: Lord Petyr gets in to the cave either with a small party or by himself. Confrontation with Stoneheart ensues.

There are variations on this scenario of course, but something like this appears to be required to set up a Littlefinger/Stoneheart encounter in which Lord Petyr will have to face the music, and maybe dance (at the end of a rope).

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Only some of this fits Sansa, but it is something that I can imagine her singing were she to take up the high harp again. It is the last of the songs in the First Book of Ayres by John Dowland (yeah him again :) In any case it's another of those cheerful songs by Dowland. [i may at some point do one of the sorrowful ones---just you wait :) ]

Now, Joffrey was one of those self-loving lads, and we know Sansa wished him away many a time. Sansa also would not want Sandor to lie and weep more than once or twice, for I think that it is his strenghth she wants: his physical strength yes, but it is his fortitude that matters.

Now Sandor we see in this: "And love as well the for'ster can

as can the mighty nobleman" (that's "forester" with an elision :). Sandor's affection also, as per the last line, would evaporate if he did not see that Sansa is at the least fond of him. But in truth, it is more than just fond if the analysis worked out in PtP holds good.

One may rightly be reminded of Aemon's lesson to Jon in these lines: "where honour, Cupid's rival is, there miracles are seen of his." But Sandor disclaims honor, so for him there may not be any substantial rivalry.

And finally there is no getting around the truth of this, not any way, not anyhow: "What fools are they that have not known that love likes no laws but his own?"

Here is the song text:

Away with these self-loving lads,

whom Cupid's arrow never glads.

Away poor souls, that sigh and weep,

in love of them that lie and sleep.

For Cupid is a meadow God,

and forceth none to kiss the rod.

God Cupid's shaft, like destiny,

doth either good or ill decree:

desert is born out of his bow,

reward upon his foot doth go.

What fools are they that have not known

that love likes no laws but his own?

My songs they be of Cynthia's praise,

I wear her rings on holidays,

on every tree I write her name,

and every day I read the same:

where honour, Cupid's rival is,

there miracles are seen of his.

If Cynthia crave her ring of me,

I blot her name out of the tree.

If doubt do darken things held dear,

then well fare nothing once a year:

for many run, but one must win,

fools only hedge the cuckoo in.

The worth that worthiness should move

is love, which is the bow of Love.

And love as well the for'ster can

as can the mighty nobleman:

sweet saint, 'tis true you worthy be,

yet without love naught worth to me.

IIRC: the poet is Fulke-Greville:

The URL for the wiki page is too long---Google him and go from there

Firstly, Early Music Ensemble of Alberta:

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=oBuqNIjvaAc

A young soprano named Hillary Huebler, but she knows how to sing this:

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=QzsIgK5tuog

Also guitar rather than lute

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I think with Petyr, it's pure vindictiveness. I don't think he actually lusts after Sansa... Although I don't think he'd hesitate to have sex with her , I think the successes he's enjoyed in his machinations are what afford him all kinds of gratification, and if he bedded Sansa, the thrill would be in despoiling Cat's daughter , not in making Sansa a stand-in for Cat.. Everything he does with Sansa is pure payback to Cat. He's taken a hand in the destruction of Cat's family at every opportunity that presented itself to him , and no doubt reveled in the tragedies she suffered outside his realm of influence.

By naming Sansa Alayne , he's taken one more step in stealing Cat's daughter .. the one that was seen to be beautiful, dutiful and good , and is in the process of trying to turn her into something Cat would not be proud of. ( I don't think he'll succeeed ) .. But I think his desire is for her ( and by extension,Cat's) ultimate degradation. He would so enjoy to able to reveal to her how utterly he had destroyed her... He's so deliciously Shakespearean. Much more like Iago than Oedipus ;)

ETA: One of the snags he may hit along the way is that I think Cersei may recall him to KL.There was already talk of it before Kevan's death, and she's bound to feel that she needs more allies ( as she believes) around her now. Petyr would have to either refuse, or leave Sansa behind. He might be able to stall for a time , but if she kept insisting, he might have to give in.

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We have become a little bit lazy. I have a song for Sansa. It`s traditional song from Montenegro, it`s about lonely girl at the spring.

This is my translation of the song:

Breaking dawn hasn`t come yet

Leaves of the hill haven`t stirred

you can`t hear the song of birds

to announce the dawn

You can`t hear a sound

or music of the shepherd

silence is all around

everything living rests

Let flowers bloom

let it be springs joy

I won`t pick it anymore

cause it`s not for me

I won`t pick it anymore

for there`s no one I would give

whom I endowed it

the dirt has covered

If you would like to hear it: http://www.youtube.c...h?v=hAGUHsiyNu8 . Enjoy

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I think with Petyr, it's pure vindictiveness. I don't think he actually lusts after Sansa... Although I don't think he'd hesitate to have sex with her , I think the successes he's enjoyed in his machinations are what afford him all kinds of gratification, and if he bedded Sansa, the thrill would be in despoiling Cat's daughter , not in making Sansa a stand-in for Cat.. Everything he does with Sansa is pure payback to Cat. He's taken a hand in the destruction of Cat's family at every opportunity that presented itself to him , and no doubt reveled in the tragedies she suffered outside his realm of influence.

Interesting points bemused. I would argue that he does lust after Sansa, as was seen from their initial interactions in AGOT and later on in the Eyrie, but he is very much focused on controlling and corrupting her at the same time as you noted. What LF appears to want is for Sansa to both love and depend on him like she would a father, and obviously to desire him as she would a lover. It's incredibly twisted, but I believe there's ample space in his mind for multiple perversions. I honestly don't know how much of his left over resentment for Cat is playing into the relationship with Sansa. I've never credited him as being genuinely emotional over what happened at Riverrun, and I believe that in the end he just used Cat as another means of creating chaos. With Sansa he might finally be out to 'build' something, create a legacy out of the wreckage; but with LF it's really hard to know.

___

Great selections Old-Growth and Mladen. I have been laboring without regular internet connection for a while now, and Feb is turning out to be a busy month for the PtP members; however, there are some coming attractions on the horizon and hopefully everyone will be back to regular posting soon :)

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Things have been insaaaaaaaaaaaane in my life lately so I haven't had time to post and read as usual. But on flyby:

- Great, awesome post, Milady, as usual! (Consider it "liked!") The more one looks at Littlefinger the creepier he becomes. He plumbs the fathomless depths of creepiness.

I find Milady's analysis of the mother issues interesting, and want to further point out that both Catelyn and Sansa are linked with the actual archetype of the Mother. We see Catelyn as a mother first and foremost in her storyline, but she's also been running her father's household since she was Sansa's age and acting as substitute mother to her younger siblings. So in light of Milady's analysis, I surmise that it is this (her already-developed Mother attributes) as much as her looks, that attracted Petyr to Cat. Sansa has no such responsibilities as Cat had, but we've already seen her stepping into the Mother role, both at the BBW and to Sweetrobin.

(And - if SR is in fact Petyr's son, which is not an impossibility, the plot in the Vale just got squickier. LF names his "daughter" whom he's grooming to be his sexual partner after his late mother, and THEN wants to kill his own son. Eek.)

The most interesting thing is that he is drawn to Sansa. Her Tully look, lack of Stark exterior edgyness, reminds him of Cat. Cat he was friend with, Cat whom he loved, Cat before Brandon and the duel. Unfortunately for all his plans, Sansa isn`t Cat, she isn`t Tully, she isn`t mild as rivers usually are, she is strong as snows of the North. Inside, she is Stark. And his inability to see her, his inability to understand her, and look beyond the image he created, will at the end be his doom.

Yes, Mladen, I agree. I have always thought that what LF can't see about Sansa will be his downfall. That is, while she looks like Cat, she is in character Ned's daughter. I think she and Jon are the most like Ned out of all the children (whether or not Jon is a sibling he's always thought of himself as such). Arya just looks like Ned, but she's more like Cat in character, ironically. When Tyrion was trying to make small talk with Sansa on the way to Joffrey's wedding, he described her "wall of sullen courtesy" as being like the Wall in the north, so I think Sansa can get pretty damn frosty when she is angry or upset. And I think she'll deliver LF his Waterloo in a cold, calculated, very Stark-like manner. Sansa has the Stark fortitude, what she does not have is the "wolf blood" that Arya, Rickon, and Brandon Sr. and Lyanna in the earlier generation had. I wonder how many Starks have that wolf blood and how many are more like Ned?

LF looks at Sansa and sees a replacement Cat, younger and more malleable and who will never leave him. But there's his downfall - all he sees is that surface. Imagine the shock when he finds out he's got a replacement Ned who wants his head on a platter. And I can see Sansa as wanting to wield the executioner's instrument herself, too. (Oh, that would be sweet to read about!)

Poor Sansa. Harry-the-Heir is starting to look positively wholesome in comparison with her other relationships, despite his apparently being Robert Baratheon Lite. At least it's doubtful that Harry will confuse Sansa-Alayne with his mother or hers!

I agree, Raksha. Poor Sansa has had such a run of sociopaths and creeps and people who want her for her claim or because they want to pervily groom her. Sandor being the only one who liked (or loved, or had feelings for) her for herself only. No matter who Sansa winds up with at the end, even if she winds up single for the rest of her life like Good Queen Bess, I want her to be happy and at least not have pervs everywhere she looks.

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May be it could mean that the Tully blood is the one that reactive the "warg" genes in the Starks kids, and may be Lysa passed to Sweetrobin a similar genetic code.

The same could be said of Jon, introducing a new set of genes differentes of the First Men.

Obviously is pure speculation.

BUt it would be intersting if the sickly boy result in a warg or something along those lines, in this threads is often noted how insighful he can be, not trusting LF or being afraid of Lyn Cobray. And also what implications this could bring to Sansa, May be stablish a conection with her brothers ? Or wake up her warg abilities and helping her by knowing she is not alone with this situation?

Very good post Bran.

I have speculated before: It is perhaps the Tully blood that carries the greenseer ability, and the Stark blood that carries the warging / skinchanging.

Bran and Sansa are perhaps the most Catelyn-like of the Stark children (well, certainly favoured most by Catelyn). Bran, as we know, has both the greenseeing and warging. Arya wargs, Jon too, and it is not clear about Robb or Rickon because they get no POV to state it (are close to their direwolves).

Sansa's abilities for warging I think will not be known, because she lost her wolf. However, she does have a strongly empathic ability, possibly more than just being socially adept, it may be supernatural. As well, she's been indavertently precognitive in some instances too. There is symbolism in some of her dreams, some of her observation, which she doesn't understand but which we later see clicking into place.

Of the Stark parents, it was Catelyn who tended towards superstition, but also her who seemed to sense things going awry before they actually did. (Some have called her a Cassandra, but what was Cassandra known for?)

So it is possible from all this (and remember I said "possible" not "proven") that the Tully blood, the riverlands blood, carries something psychic within. Combining Stark and Tully may wake it up. Or perhaps other Riverlands familes are touched by it too, going back to the days of Tristifer, etc. (And perhaps the Neck is connected to it from that long ago.) Harrenhal, the God's Eye / Isle of Faces, the Ghost of High Heart, etc. - the Riverlands is less wild than the north but seems to have an abundance of supernatural aspects.

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