Failings of feminism II - femininity is bad?

[Theda Baratheon]

This is a very long quote, or rather extract from a book i'm reading at the moment: How To Be A Woman by Caitlin Moran.

I thought it was light-hearted, but also pretty great. So here's for anyone interested:

''I turned to modern feminism to answer questions that I had but found that what had once been the one most exciting, incendiary and effective revolution of all time had somehow shrunk down to into a couple of increasingly small arguments, carried out among a couple dozen feminist academics, in books that only feminist academics would read, and discussed at 11pm on BBC4. Here's my beef with this:

1. Feminism is too important to only be discussed by academics. And also pertinently:
   
2. I'm not a feminist academic, but, by God, feminism is so serious, momentous and urgent, that now is really the time for it to be championed by a light-hearted broadsheet columnist and part time TV critic, who has appalling spelling. If something is thrilling and fun, I want to join in - not watch from the sidelines. I have stuff to say! Camille Paglia has Lady Gaga ALL WRONG! The feminist organisation Object are nuts when it comes down to pornography! Germaine Greer, my heroine, is crackers on the subject of transgender issues! And no one is tackling OK! Magazine, £600 handbags, tiny pants, Brazilians, stupid hen nights or Katy Price.
   

And they have to be tackled. They have to be tackled, rugby style, face down in the mud, with lots of shouting.

Traditional feminism would tell you these things are not important issues: that we should concentrate on the big stuff like pay inequality, female circumcision in the Third World, and domestic abuse. And they are, obviously, pressing and disgusting and wrong, and the world can not look itself squarely in the face until it's stopped.

But all those littler, stupider, more obvious day-to-day problems with being a woman are, in many ways, just as deleterious to women's peace of mind. It is the 'Broken Windows' philosophy, transferred to female inequality. In 'Broken Windows' theory, if a single broken window on an empty building is ignored, and not repaired, the tendency is for vandals to break a few more windows. Eventually, they may break into the building, and light fires, or become squatters.

Similarly, if we live in a climate where female pubic hair is considered distasteful, or famous and powerful women are constantly pilloried for being too fat or too thin, or badly dressed, then, eventually, people start breaking into women, and lighting fires in them. Women will get squatters. Clearly, this is not a welcome state of affairs. I don't know about you, but I don't want to wake up one morning and find a load of chancers in my lobby.

When Ruby Giuliani became Mayor of New York in 1993, his belief in the 'Broken Windows' theory led him to implement 'Zero Tolerance' policy. Crime dropped dramatically, significantly, and continued to for the next ten years.

Personally, I feel the time has come for women to introduce their own Zero tolerance policy on the Broken Window issues in our lives - I want a Zero Tolerance policy on 'All The Patriarchal Bullshit'. And the great thing about a Zero Tolerance policy on Patriarchal Broken Windows Bullshit is this; in the 21st century, we don't need to march against size zero models, risible pornography, lap-dancing clubs and Botox. We don't need to riot, or go on hunger-strike. There's no need to throw ourselves under a horse, or even a donkey. We just need to look it in the eye, squarely, for a minute, and then start laughing at it. We look hot when we laugh. People fancy us when they observe us giving out relaxed, earthy chuckles.

Perhaps they don't fancy us quite as much when we go on to bang on the tables with our fists, gurgling, 'HARGH! HARGH! Yes, that IS what it's like! SCREW YOU, the patriarchy!' before choking on mouthful of crisps, but still.

I don't know if we can talk about waves of feminism anymore - by my reckoning, the next wave would be the fifth, and I suspect it's around the fifth wave that you stop referring to individual waves, and start to refer, simply, to an incoming tide.

But if there is to be a fifth wave of feminism, I would hope that the main thing that distinguishes it from all that came before is that women counter awkwardness, disconnect and bullshit of being a modern woman not by shouting at it, internalising it or squabbling about it - but by simply pointing at it, and going 'HA!', instead.

[TerraPrime]

I think its certainly a better approach than just forcing people to change how they pay. Why does a bias toward white men in business even exist unless it has something to do with white men running the show in business.

I don't know why you'd think that.

Is it a better approach to let racial discrimination end on its own without legal intervention, as well, then? When business owners and bosses realize that black workers do just as much work, they'd magically decide to stop paying them less?

I'm confused.

[Daario's*before*Snows]

I don't know why you'd think that.

Is it a better approach to let racial discrimination end on its own without legal intervention, as well, then? When business owners and bosses realize that black workers do just as much work, they'd magically decide to stop paying them less?

I'm confused.

I think black and non white male business owners accomplish far more for economic equality than any government legislation ever has.

[Larry of the Lawn]

I think its certainly a better approach than just forcing people to change how they pay. Why does a bias toward white men in business even exist unless it has something to do with white men running the show in business.

?

So is the 'better approach' you're talking about to have women start their own business or only work for women-owned ones, as opposed to working for a male owned business?

And as to the part I bolded, white men have been 'running the show' for generations and generations by virtue of oppressing everyone else. Maybe it's because of cultural inertia that a couple of laws don't solve everything overnight, and aren't sufficient to oust long-held cultural biases and prejudices. That shit takes time and effort. I don't know if that's the question you were asking or not.

edit: clarity spelling

[TerraPrime]

I think black and non white male business owners accomplish far more for economic equality than any government legislation ever has.

On what basis do you think that? What historical evidence suggest that the situation would have changed, at all, without legal intervention?

[Daario's*before*Snows]

?

So is the 'better approach' you'er talking about to have women start their own business or only work for women-owned ones?

Yes, and buy from and invest in them also

[Daario's*before*Snows]

On what basis do you think that? What historical evidence suggest that the situation would have changed, at all, without legal intervention?

What legislation do you mean? Certain law changes were obviously needed such as making it legal for black men to own land and property, voting and such.

I mean its legal for a woman to get paid as much or more than men, and from many complaints it is not happening.

[TerraPrime]

I mean its legal for a woman to get paid as much or more than men, and from many complaints it is not happening.

So just so I am sure I understand you correctly, are you saying that laws like the EEOC are not needed?

[Daario's*before*Snows]

So just so I am sure I understand you correctly, are you saying that laws like the EEOC are not needed?

Im saying business owning and supporting is a far more effective way to become closer to economic equality.

[TerraPrime]

Im saying business owning and supporting is a far more effective way to become closer to economic equality.

And how, or why, would they do that when there are no negative repercussions to their discriminatory practices?

[Daario's*before*Snows]

And how, or why, would they do that when there are no negative repercussions to their discriminatory practices?

I dont understand what you are asking here.

[sologdin]

and where does the money for investment originate if there is discrimination in employment and, presumably, credit markets, for generations? is this capitalist magic?

[Daario's*before*Snows]

and where does the money for investment originate if there is discrimination in employment and, presumably, credit markets, for generations? is this capitalist magic?

Not all women are poor, if you cant invest, find another way to support, or start a business yourself.

If your business becomes successful then you can invest and help another woman start her business, and make a nice profit for yourself.

[Tempra]

Not all women are poor, if you cant invest, find another way to support, or start a business yourself.

If your business becomes successful then you can invest and help another woman start her business, and make a nice profit for yourself.

Pssst, say SBA loans and grants.

[Sci-2]

I think the assumption that markets will correct discrimination assumes that it is morally acceptable for women to wait for this. (Imagine saying that the Civil War was evil b/c slavery would end eventually.)

It also assumes markets are composed of rational actors whose profit motive overcomes the oftentimes unconscious bias and [semi-]conscious conditioning from which sexism stems.

[Daario's*before*Snows]

I think the assumption that markets will correct discrimination assumes that it is morally acceptable for women to wait for this. (Imagine saying that the Civil War was evil b/c slavery would end eventually.)

It also assumes markets are composed of rational actors whose profit motive overcomes the oftentimes unconscious bias and [semi-]conscious conditioning from which sexism stems.

Who is saying for women to wait? Im saying do it now.

Did the Civil War create economic equality between blacks and whites? No, it did not.

[Kittykatknits]

Well, I hate to knit and I suck at it. ;) But I like baking bread almost as much as I like computer games.

Tell me you mean you end up purling.

Actually, I think knitting is sort of interesting, in context (along with other traditional-feminine crafty things, like baking, sewing, etc.) I think I (and those around me) grew up rejecting that kind of think because it is tied up with femininity, and then kind of came to it later via that back door. My mother is an excellent knitter, but I actually learned to knit from friends. I could handle knitting when I was choosing to do it because I liked making stuff when I was 19. I couldn't handle it at all when it was being taught to me by my mother as 'a useful thing for a girl to know' when I was 13.

Knitting, a subject near and dear to my heart. It's also a good example of a hobby which feminists have reclaimed as part of third wave efforts. I suppose it's well known that knitting experienced a resurgence in popularity in the last decade after years and years of yarn shop closures and declining membership in different needlecraft organizations.

Elizabeth Zimmerman receives much of the credit for the launch of modern knitting as we now know it, starting a business with workshops, newsletters, books, and a TV show. She's an incredibly fascinating woman whose career eventually became a family business that her daughter took over after her death. She popularized a style of knitting that used a mathematical approach that had largely been unheard of. She did all this back when a female owned business was still rare and a business built around a feminine hobby even more so.

There is also Barbara Walker, a self-identitifed feminist and knitter. She's written numerous feminist books, including collections of fairy tales rewritten for a feminist audience. I'd say she is also right behind EZ when it comes to what we know now as modern knitting. She introduced a new style of garment creation that had been almost completely unknown and is responsible for the most comprehensive, academic listing of knitting stitch patterns ever created. Like EZ, Barbara pushed a style of knitting that was a direct reaction against techniques and pattern usage pushed by many of the mainstream and male-owned yarn companies.

One of the biggest names today is probably Debbie Stoller who is behind the well-known Stitch and Bitch book series. She's a third wave feminist and champions greater respect for feminity or girly feminism. She's behind Bust magazine which has been going strong for almost twenty years now. Debbie also happens to be one of the first women associated with 3rd-wave feminism to advocate or push for greater respect for more traditional feminine arts and hobbies.

Knitting is now being used as a political tool as well. Knitted graffiti pops up in cities all over the place and there is the current snatchel project. It's also been used for breast cancer support and anti-war efforts. Here is a very good article exploring the link between feminism and knitting.

I'd also add that the growth of knitting has led to an explosion of yarn shops within the US and Britian (I don't know as much about the rest of Europe), almost exclusively these businesses are owned by women. Most of the new yarn companies that have been created in the past 10-20 years are also owned by women, such as Mountain Meadows Wool or Blue Moon Fiber Arts. There is a huge upsurge in independent designers, again almost exclusively female, who operate out of personal studios and publish their own patterns, selling them directly to yarn stores and creating their own pattern books. Debbie Bliss is probably amongst the biggest and most famous right now but there are countless others too.

So, I'd say knitting is a very good example of something that is considered tradionally feminine yet has served to be not just an enjoyable hobby but quite a bit more.

Lyanna,

She's tryed to teach me but I end up purlling every time so I feel you pain.

:)

[thank you DP]

Have her teach you the Eastern Uncrossed knitting style. It's a style that has you create the purl stitch the same way you are are probably doing and a way of creating the knit stitch that twists your stitches, very similar to the purl. It's actually an older, more traditional style of knitting that has been in use much longer than the American/English method usually found in the US, UK, and Western Europe. I would guess you are learning the more common American or English method.

[Raskolnikov]

Business should be like toilets! Male Business, Female Business.

[Sci-2]

Who is saying for women to wait? Im saying do it now.

Did the Civil War create economic equality between blacks and whites? No, it did not.

Asking for women to rely on market forces correct sexism in the workplace is asking them to wait.

Seems to me that markets often require a legal push to approach anything resembling justice.

[Daario's*before*Snows]

Asking for women to rely on market forces correct sexism in the workplace is asking them to wait.

Seems to me that markets often require a legal push to approach anything resembling justice.

I didnt ask anybody to wait for anything, if you think legislation will be the savior then keep trying to pass it by all means.

Im just saying its my strong belief that business owning and supporting is, has been, and will be far more effective.