Raskolnikov Posted January 31, 2013 Share Posted January 31, 2013 Im just saying its my strong belief that business owning and supporting is, has been, and will be far more effective.It was really effective in cotton plantations! Fuck yea business owners. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daario's*before*Snows Posted January 31, 2013 Share Posted January 31, 2013 It was really effective in cotton plantations! Fuck yea business owners.Maybe if the plantation owners could have used 12 year old chinese kids to do their work like modern corporations they wouldnt be so hated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raskolnikov Posted January 31, 2013 Share Posted January 31, 2013 Maybe if the plantation owners could have used 12 year old chinese kids to do their work like modern corporations they wouldnt be so hated.Hated? Lots of people bought cotton, ergo supporting the plantations. Where's the hate? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shryke Posted January 31, 2013 Share Posted January 31, 2013 I didnt ask anybody to wait for anything, if you think legislation will be the savior then keep trying to pass it by all means.Im just saying its my strong belief that business owning and supporting is, has been, and will be far more effective.When has it been more effective? Like, ever?Market forces have never done shit about workplace discrimination. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daario's*before*Snows Posted January 31, 2013 Share Posted January 31, 2013 When has it been more effective? Like, ever?Market forces have never done shit about workplace discrimination.Idk somebody should do a study on female owned business vs male owned. If female owned tend to pay equal. Either way I advise everybody to go self employed, men or women. Its great. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fragile Bird Posted January 31, 2013 Share Posted January 31, 2013 In your dreams. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Raidne Posted January 31, 2013 Share Posted January 31, 2013 To the OP, to me the issue is less whether feminism has done an injustice to "feminine" virtues by embracing "masculine" virtues, and more whether one has to value "feminine" virtues in order to be a feminist. If you believe that in a hypothetical perfectly egalitarian society women would be no more likely to be exhibit "feminine" virtues, traits, and/or behavior than men, why would it be necessary to embrace femininity to be a feminist? Would these not be entirely separate issues were it not for some accident of nomenclature?I personally pretty much suck at being nurturing, vulnerable, graceful, considerate, etc., so there is just more value for me in being analytical, frank, and self-assured. Be mindful of your faults and work on them, sure, but it's likely even more important to make the most of what you have. Hell, even that is a pretty "masculine" opinion to have, when opposed to the idea that it might be more important to work on correcting your flaws. Having said that, I can certainly see a lot of value in the so-called "feminine" virtues - particularly being able to follow another person's leadership, the ability to facilitate consensus, and empathy. So, in the end, I'm on the side of finding "feminine" virtues to be equally important to "masculine" virtues, but I also find that "femininity" has very little value or relevance to my own feminism. I really wish we'd just recharacterize these virtues/traits/behaviors as "intuitive" and "analytical" and drop the whole association already.So no, I don't think feminism has failed "femininity" any more than feminism has failed "openness" or "conscientiousness" or "INTP" or any other psychological construct used to describe personality as manifested by certain attitudes and behaviors. Im saying business owning and supporting is a far more effective way to become closer to economic equality.Women don't exactly treat other women in the workplace fairly because vagina. Having said that, a legal framework that allows for redress for and prevention of discrimination in the workplace combined with an affirmative action plan that recruits, develops, and advocates the promotion of qualified women within an organization seems to be more effective than anti-discrimination legislation on its own. But anti-discrimination legislation is a necessary condition for any progress toward equality. Otherwise you just see situations where the "token" female jealousy guards her position from other female contenders for that one token spot and congratulates herself for being a special snowflake able to cut the mustard in a "man's" world, unlike all the other "inferior" women, who are actually just women who happen to be intentionally oppressed by the narcissistic token. This is STILL a live problem that can be observed everywhere and likely has been by the majority of the women posting in this thread. No idea how often men observe the same phenomena. And yes, there is plenty of data to support that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonCon's Red Beard Posted January 31, 2013 Share Posted January 31, 2013 Lyanna,Anyone who thinks my wife is "weak" because she likes to knit and has chosen to stay home with our kids is a flippin idiot.I agree with this as someone who also likes to knit and sew (but also works).I've seen many criticism towards "feminine women", from women who think they rebel against the system by not doing simple choirs such as cleaning your house, cooking or something simple like dressing in a soft delicate way. This is where their feminism fails: feminism was supposed to be about choice. If I choose to dress or do certain chores or tasks, should be for my choice, not because they say it's wrong or bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fragile Bird Posted January 31, 2013 Share Posted January 31, 2013 Knitting, a subject near and dear to my heart. It's also a good example of a hobby which feminists have reclaimed as part of third wave efforts. I suppose it's well known that knitting experienced a resurgence in popularity in the last decade after years and years of yarn shop closures and declining membership in different needlecraft organizations.<snip>heh heh. Taught myself to knit when I was about 8 or 9, out of a book. As a result, I don't knit properly, and real knitters look at the way I hold my needles and ask how I ever finish anything. But it is very satisfying to make beautiful sweaters, even if they take forever to finish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karaddin Posted January 31, 2013 Share Posted January 31, 2013 Raidne - I wouldn't say that feminism owes it to femininity, however if feminism wants to achieve true empowerment of women and equality then I think the empowerment of femininity is also necessary. It's not the goal in itself, but it's necessary for achieving the goals.Also there is more to femininity than the attributes/traits etc. As much as you claim that you don't have much time for femininity in your personality, I'm sure from what I've read of you that there is femininity in your appearance. Whether it be your sense of style and fashion, or your actual appearance (I'm pretty sure both). That's not necessarily inherent in every woman, and even as a man there was some of that inherent in me, but you can't just boil masculine down as "analytical" and feminine as "intuitive" because there is alot more to both of them than that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stubby Posted January 31, 2013 Share Posted January 31, 2013 [MOD]Some reports were made and some posts were deleted.Those that needed to hear something from the moderating team did.Let's move on.[/MOD] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MinDonner Posted January 31, 2013 Share Posted January 31, 2013 Still when asked about inequality today, what do we usually see as evidence provided by feminists? We see statistics showing just how many (few) elected government officials, partners in law firms, CEOs in Fortune 500 companies, etc, are women. Would you agree at least that there is a very heavy bias in favor of filling these powerful positions with women?I'd say that's a fair comment. It's not ideal, for sure - there has to be an amount of classism there, with middle-class feminists focusing more on middle-class occupations - but it's not true that just because some campaigns are more high-profile than others, the smaller campaigns don't exist.And there's something to be said for picking one's battles. As we've seen in countless threads, as soon as anything involving physical strength comes up, there's a whole host of additional preconceptions to struggle through on top of the usual "women will have babies/go home early/get emotional once a month/be too meek to ask for pay rises/etc etc" - so using white-collar jobs to illustrate the continuing pay and hiring gap makes for a cleaner comparison, as it's harder to argue that lawyering requires burly strength. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merentha Posted January 31, 2013 Share Posted January 31, 2013 Idk somebody should do a study on female owned business vs male owned. If female owned tend to pay equal. Either way I advise everybody to go self employed, men or women. Its great.They've done studying on hiring practices conducted by males and females. Several years ago, iirc, they were either even or the women would actively be worse, possibly as an attempt to avoid looking like they were biased in favor of their sex. I am not sure what it is now. I don't think that the "free market" is any kind of panacea, and I certainly don't think it is the way we should sort things out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mlle. Zabzie Posted January 31, 2013 Share Posted January 31, 2013 I'd say that's a fair comment. It's not ideal, for sure - there has to be an amount of classism there, with middle-class feminists focusing more on middle-class occupations - but it's not true that just because some campaigns are more high-profile than others, the smaller campaigns don't exist.And there's something to be said for picking one's battles. As we've seen in countless threads, as soon as anything involving physical strength comes up, there's a whole host of additional preconceptions to struggle through on top of the usual "women will have babies/go home early/get emotional once a month/be too meek to ask for pay rises/etc etc" - so using white-collar jobs to illustrate the continuing pay and hiring gap makes for a cleaner comparison, as it's harder to argue that lawyering requires burly strength.Hah. You've never tried to pick up my books! :PBesides analytical ability and a knack of teaching, lawyering require a physical strength. There is an endurance aspect to practice that is often overlooked. You endure late nights preparing for a closing/filing/trial/whatever. You endure opposing counsel screaming at you (just yesterday I got yelled at by opposing counsel for using the word "absurd". He told me it was f*cking inappropriate to use that word in the context I was using it. I started laughing. He didn't get the joke). So, maybe that's where it comes in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hallyington Posted January 31, 2013 Share Posted January 31, 2013 Well bloody hell, I like knitting and i'm a rather masculine man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Storm Queen Posted January 31, 2013 Share Posted January 31, 2013 I have been following this discussion as a lurker, enjoying it but not being able to add much to MinDonner, Lyanna et al and their very insightful posts. However when reading this thread today on my way home from university something interesting (and infuriating) happened that made me re-analyse my relationship with feminism. For the record I identify as feminist but sometimes - like today - I fall back into the patterns I have been socialized with which annoys me to no end. What happened?I sat in mostly empthy bus, in a four person cabin. I had two heavy bags, one with my laptop one with the rest of my stuff. Given the bus was empty, I put the first bag on the seat next to me while I was reading. At the next station some people entered the bus and a guy came to my compartment wanting to sit next to me. Instead of waiting (silently) for a second or shortly asking me to remove my bag, he grabbed it and put it (not to gently btw!) on the seat opposite to me. Then he sat next to me, spreading his legs and taking over at least a qarter of my seat. What did I do? I automatically apologized for not getting he wanted the seat next to me. I acted how I was socialized.But even in the next second I was angry. I felt I should have said sorry but also pointed out that there was no need touching my property. In the same situation I would never had done that. I (and most of the other people I encounter in the bus) simply ask if stuff can be removed).After coming home I discussed this with my boyfriend who agreed that he never would have reacted like that even though he generally is a polite person.This is only a single instance but I often feel instinctivly the need to facilitate things, to apopologize even if I do not really feel the need to. Am I alone with this? Do I take this situation far to serious? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fragile Bird Posted January 31, 2013 Share Posted January 31, 2013 The Storm Queen - are you Canadian? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daario's*before*Snows Posted January 31, 2013 Share Posted January 31, 2013 They've done studying on hiring practices conducted by males and females. Several years ago, iirc, they were either even or the women would actively be worse, possibly as an attempt to avoid looking like they were biased in favor of their sex. I am not sure what it is now. I don't think that the "free market" is any kind of panacea, and I certainly don't think it is the way we should sort things out.What law will eliminate a wage gap? I dont see how it can be done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sci-2 Posted January 31, 2013 Share Posted January 31, 2013 What law will eliminate a wage gap? I dont see how it can be done.It's not just the law -> Law suits that make it more profitable to be fair in promotion and salaries offered than to continue being unfair [will help]. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daario's*before*Snows Posted January 31, 2013 Share Posted January 31, 2013 It's not just the law -> Law suits that make it more profitable to be fair in promotion and salaries offered than to continue being unfair [will help].What would be an example of such a lawsuit.I mean what could be used as grounds for suing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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