Heresy 41

[Tyryan Lannister]

If history repeats itself and the key to restoring balance is for the current players to not repeat their predecessor's choices, who is playing which part? Bran as the greenseer and sacrificed Stark, Sam as the Last Hero, Jon as the Prince that was Promised and Daenerys as Azor Ahai? Actually, Daenerys cannot be Azor Ahai since she'd have to slay her own dragons. Jon must be Azor Ahai and Daenerys the Princess that was Promised.

While agreeing with this, just also need to point out that Jaime will likely have a part to play in the Song after his role in the Game is done. I say this because I feel that 1) he will be the one to kill Cersei (as I feel most are in agreement on) but that 2) unlike what Cersei repeatedly tells herself, Jaime and Cersei WILL NOT leave this world together. As far as I can recall, never once does Jaime postulated that he and Cersei will leave together, that is only a Cersei delusion like much else. I feel that ultimately, Jaime and Sansa (either with or through the Hound and Littlefinger's likely death, although he could potentially also be involved) will team up some how towards getting Sansa back into the Song and having her assume whatever role it is that she's meant to hold.

It's kind of wishful thinking, but at the same time it does a lot to shore up the middle-Westeros storylines and bring these Game oriented ones into the Song storyarch

[Melifeather]

Maybe we can apply the idea behind the movie WarGames from 1983 with Matthew Broderick where he has to teach the computer that some games are unwinnable. http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0086567/synopsis

Perhaps the purpose of the greenseer is to see all possible outcomes and to nudge humans into making the correct choices?

[Black Crow]

Possibly, but I still have this sneaking suspicion that the comfortable assumption that the Children and their greenseers (old and new) will ally with Men against the Others may be disappointed and that they are working to a quite different agenda

[Tyryan Lannister]

Possibly, but I still have this sneaking suspicion that the comfortable assumption that the Children and their greenseers (old and new) will ally with Men against the Others may be disappointed and that they are working to a quite different agenda

Step 1: steal a Stark

Step 2: ???

Step 3: Profit

[Black Crow]

Yeah, well it comes back to why do they need a human greenseer?

[The Others Take Ya]

Maybe we can apply the idea behind the movie WarGames from 1983 with Matthew Broderick where he has to teach the computer that some games are unwinnable. http://www.imdb.com/...086567/synopsis

Perhaps the purpose of the greenseer is to see all possible outcomes and to nudge humans into making the correct choices?

Hi! :-)

I'm new here and have been reading the heresy threads off and on since about the mid thirties, haven't caught up on them all yet though I have the feeling by the time I did there would be another 40 to catch up on after. :laugh:

I've been wondering if the weirwoods haven't just been nudging humans to make the correct choices, but if they were used in the North's history as the jury to judge the guilt or innocence of people for execution. What got me thinking about this was early in book 1 Ned has a tradition of going to the tree to "cleanse" himself after an execution. (Catelyn I, Game of Thrones).

But she knew she would find her husband here tonight. Whenever he took a man’s life, afterward he would seek the quiet of the godswood.

Perhaps Ned's habit wasn't just a habit, but perhaps the remnants of an old tradition or agreement long forgotten. And if the trees used be more powerful then they are now then the trees would make a logical jury, with first men only taking on the role of executioner. Considering all the first men are buried with their direwolves, I'd say that magic in general, and Stark's warging must have been a common thing. (the stone wolves are buried with the men in the crypts both in the books, and in the show you see the stone wolves in the background)

Has it been discussed if the war between the first men and COTF and whoever else was involved didn't actually end in a stalemate, but in fact the first men lost completely? I've been wondering if the "stalemate" story is misdirection caused by men's histories being told favorably about themselves over time. Then the role of King of the North established at the time of the pact to be more a figurehead then that of ruler, and leaving the Kings with enough abilities (warging) to take orders and keep the peace (be executioners), though their true rulers were always the COTF, who are dwindling of late or could have always lived underground in tunnels to begin with.

Loosing your ability to judge yourself means loosing a lot of autonomy though. Something I don't think men would easily give up. Which is why I think the FM lost the war instead of ending it in a stalemate.

Yeah, well it comes back to why do they need a human greenseer?

Maybe the human greenseer could have been an ongoing, generational, hostage situation against the Starks/First Men and CoTF?

Sorry if this has all been discussed before! Thanks to all for such a thought provoking thread.

[Little Wing]

Yeah, well it comes back to why do they need a human greenseer?

Your question about why the Children need a human greenseer keeps reminding me of all the stories (and movies) where a child is needed to, I don't know - give a name to a princess or it's just their life force that attracts the entities or they are the one to destroy a witch or whatever - you all know how it goes...

Or a sacrifice by a CotF greenseer just isn't enough to bring balance in the world of men... a human and a greenseer to boot willing to sacrifice himself/herself to bring balance may be what is needed, as we have discussed before... :dunno:

[Black Crow]

Hi! :-)

I'm new here and have been reading the heresy threads off and on since about the mid thirties, haven't caught up on them all yet though I have the feeling by the time I did there would be another 40 to catch up on after. :laugh:

Welcome to Heresy. It all depends how quickly you read. Right now we're generally getting through a 20 page thread in a week...

As to your suggestion that the First Men "lost", I don't think we've discussed this in such explicit terms, but I agree that despite the way Maester Luwin tells it, the First Men seem to have made a lot of concessions, although on the other hand its often the case that conquerors will adopt local customs and go native as the saying is. When that happens it is then a philosophical question as to who really conquered who and I think its certainly the case here that some families at least have become one with the Old Races.

[Black Crow]

Your question about why the Children need a human greenseer keeps reminding me of all the stories (and movies) where a child is needed to, I don't know - give a name to a princess or it's just their life force that attracts the entities or they are the one to destroy a witch or whatever - you all know how it goes...

Or a sacrifice by a CotF greenseer just isn't enough to bring balance in the world of men... a human and a greenseer to boot willing to sacrifice himself/herself to bring balance may be what is needed, as we have discussed before... :dunno:

So far as folklore goes we're back in the realms of Faerie and changelings - the taking of human servants to do those things they themselves can't. The question here being that since the Children had and we suspect still do have their own greenseers what is it that they can't do themselves and so require a human greenseer to do it for them.

[Little Wing]

Maybe it's the memories the human greenseer has... an emotional bond to its own race. :dunno:

[Mace Cooterian]

Maybe it's the memories the human greenseer has... an emotional bond to its own race. :dunno:

Sort of what I was thinking. The CoTF (and their greenseers) could never really look into men's hearts/souls and that was a concession made during the first pact. In other words, FM would provide a sacrifice so that the CoTF plug them into the weirwood to keep an eye on what was going on throughout Westeros.

[Black Crow]

Yeah, that's sort of what I was suggesting earlier; that they need a human greenseer in order to see and manipulate what's happening in the human realm

[yestoitall]

It seems to me that once a Greenseer is plugged into the weirwoodweb they are the only human to have an objective perspective of the sequence of events stretching back far enough over preceding generations. The only other lifeform that seems to have that perspective is a weirwood tree, and a CotF Greenseer plugged into the weirwoodweb in the same way as a human Greenseer.

So it's not so much that the CotF have an ulterior motive in plugging in the human Greenseer, it's that only by doing so can they hope that a human force will be working towards the long term objective of finding a way to live in balance and harmony in the shared environment of Westeros.

This equilibrium not being maintained has dire consequences. The land itself, combining with the elements, unleashes terrible forces of Winter, which the First Men struggle to cope with when they first set foot in Westeros, not least because of the low temperatures. The CotF, however, over time have learned how not to upset the natural balance. And in time, after their initial conflict is resolved, the CotF manage to communicate this knowledge to the First Men. The pact is the original agreement between these two races, which lays out the course of action to be followed to prevent the unleashing of the terrible forces of Winter again.

Part of this agreement may well have been the establishing of the human connection with the weirwoodweb, the plugging-in of the 1st Greenseer if you like, in order to facilitate harmony and balance between all the inhabitants of the land. And so it seems to me that it is very much in the interests of both races for them to maintain their connections with the weirwoodweb. The CotF have remained aware of this, humans have not. The attempts of Leaf, BR and everyone else in the cave, are a concerted effort from the last remaining inhabitants of the region with sufficient understanding to try and withstand the unleashing of Winter that is about to happen. If successful, they will require a continued human Greenseer presence to reestablish the equilibrium in the region, hence the importance of Bran, the last Greenseer.

Finding a successor to BR is essential for the continued understanding (and therefore possible assistance) of humans in general, and the First Men in particular, who appear to be the only branch of the race gifted with the skills (skinchanging, Geenseer) required to shape the long term future of the world in which they live. Having an ally who understands that finding equilibrium is the only answer, who fully appreciates the stakes at risk, and has the ability to influence the outcome of events is all that the CotF require.

The equilibrium requires the balance of Ice and Fire; elements used as weapons. The First Men upset it when they discover the land of Westeros. With the help of the CotF the FM learn how to reestablish the balance of Ice and Fire. The arrival of the Andals threatens to throw another spanner in the works, but with the continued assistance of the CotF, and possibly the Andals too, the FM manage to maintain the balance. The combined forces of men are referred to by Bronze and Iron; the metals that they use as weapons. The peace is brokered by the CotF, who govern the powers of the Earth and the Water, and also use them as weapons.

The oath that Jojen and Meera swear to the Lord of Winterfell is the Pact that was agreed upon by the CotF and the FM, and shares their knowledge of how to live in harmony - by balancing Ice and Fire, with Bronze and Iron, and Earth and Water. A Greenseer is required to explain all of this to the petty warring humans, otherwise they'll forget their side of the bargain and the forces of Winter will be unleashed again. We don't know BR's path to becoming a Greenseer, but we're witnessing Bran's, and right now they are the only 2 humans with any understanding of the scale of the drama which is unfolding, the Song of Ice and Fire.

All of the other humans, with the exception of Jon, and Jojen and Meera - if they're human - are simply competing in the Game of Thrones. They've all lost sight of the larger picture - or perhaps in the case of the non-Westerosi branches they never saw the larger picture to begin with. The remaining Starks are struggling to comprehend what their true role in the Song is, but it is clearly Bran, with his access to the weirwoodweb databank about to be unlocked, who is the key to remembering their long-forgotten duties.

All of the Stark children are drawn instinctively, primarily through the relationships with their direwolves, to a deeper understanding of the forces of nature at work, and the Old Gods, and strive to understand the larger picture. Those that remain, but have lost their direwolves, either permanently, like Sansa, or possibly temporarily, like Arya, have become disconnected from the Old Gods and much more involved in the Game of Thrones. Those that are still together, like Jon and Ghost, or Bran and Summer, or Rickon and Shaggydog, are still connected to the Old Gods, and less concerned with the affairs of Men. Rob and Grey Wind were brought down by their involvement with the affairs of Men; the Game of Thrones.

It would appear that the Starks answer to a higher God than other men. The God of Winter. The Old Gods. It is not their place to entertain Southron ambitions, they have other duties. After all, Winter is coming...

[wolfmaid7]

Yeah, well it comes back to why do they need a human greenseer?

I have a suspicion that their place as GS's have been replaced by Men -certain lines that is have the trait and were provided as a sacrifice.Now with the pacts forgotten they have been driven to "coerce" the next GS into the service.

Leaf said that their numbers are few because they live so long, so i'm guessing that a GS haven't been born- how ever they reproduce- among them in a while.But why?

[Black Wolf Smith]

I'm still hoping for Davos to be the Hooded Man so he can tell us about the battle for Winterfell from Winterfell. He doesn't know that Stannis got rid of the Karstarks and what happened with Theon and Jeyne so GRRM wouldn't need to spill all at once.

For Mereen I couldn't care less but I feel it would advance the story if Tyrion bites it. It is time for a major character death and until Jon Snow stays dead this is the best opportunity.

IMO the HM is Raynald Westerling.

I don't know if Tyrion dies, but at least 1, more likely 2 POV's will die.

[Black Wolf Smith]

New poster, hope this isn't off topic.

With the red priests so prevalent In the lands across the sea Is it possible that at some point winter held a stronghold on any of these islands?

Or are the others and children of the forest completely unique to Westeros? The invasion of the Andals obviously killed all of the children of the forest

south of the wall did winter have a hold prior to this?

Is it crazy to assume that the children and their magic also affect the weather and climate of the land in which they live?

A ways back (late 20's early 30's Heresy) someone had brought up the river that Tyrion, Jon Con, YG were on, where Tyrion fell in. There were some things that made that person think that there maybe CoTF around there. I dont remember much else about it. My point being that is that some people think there is something to that.

For the record IMO.

HM = Raynald Westerling. He dove/fell in the rivers after the RW and has not been seen since. He was loyal to Robb, but not necessarily to the Starks/North. He having been with the Crannogmen, (where he healed up) then went to WF to make contact with those still loyal to Robb. While with the Crannogmen he/they saw Theon lead the Ironmen out of Moat Cailing, to their deaths. Which is why he say to Theon< Kinslayer and All you are is false. It is also why he doesn't seem that worried about Theon. He wants to get Boltons and Freys.

The Blackfish is near 60. I don't think that he could have swam underwater half a mile, with his sword, armor, and food, and then out ran 100's of men on horse back the next few days. I don't think he ever left RR. I also think that is why Jon C, POV had a castle hid in it. The hid did not in anyway help his cousins. It was there to show that some castles have hid's in them.

[Toccs]

I'm pretty sure the Hooded Man is Theon having a Tyler Durden moment.

- The Hooded Man is extremely familiar with Theon from the outset and this doesn't bother Theon in the slightest.

- The Hooded Man is the only person to immediately recognize Reek as Theon, and he does so instantly and from a distance.

- Theon has no hesitation about showing his maimed hand to the HM, but immediately afterwards he is humiliated at the idea of showing his hands to the gathered Lords.

- The HM calls Theon a "kinslayer". As is made patently clear from the rest of Theon's chapters, no one considers the Starks to be Theon's kin, no one except Theon that is.

- There is Theon's fragile mental state and his incident of "missing time" that point to things not being quite right in his head.

- The meeting with the Hooded Man is the pivotal point for Theon. Theon's defiant attitude at the end of his conversation with the Hooded Man is the moment when "Theon" begins to overcome "Reek", and what happens at this moment, the Hooded Man walks away.

Not too mention that all of the other proposed answers, Davos, Blackfish, Benjen or gods forbid the Miller all make absolutely zero sense to me.

[redriver]

As far as POV's are concerned I think Martin has said there won't be any new character POV's,but that doesn't preclude existing characters such as Mance or even a Bolton.

I think the HM is the Liddle for reasons I've posted in several HM threads.Personally I would prefer it was a northman who understands the importance of a Stark in Winterfell,and operates on guile,wits and bravery.

The Durden thing has been done before and would seem like a cheap trick to me,especially in a POV chapter format.

[alienarea]

IMO the HM is Raynald Westerling.

I don't know if Tyrion dies, but at least 1, more likely 2 POV's will die.

A ways back (late 20's early 30's Heresy) someone had brought up the river that Tyrion, Jon Con, YG were on, where Tyrion fell in. There were some things that made that person think that there maybe CoTF around there. I dont remember much else about it. My point being that is that some people think there is something to that.

For the record IMO.

HM = Raynald Westerling. He dove/fell in the rivers after the RW and has not been seen since. He was loyal to Robb, but not necessarily to the Starks/North. He having been with the Crannogmen, (where he healed up) then went to WF to make contact with those still loyal to Robb. While with the Crannogmen he/they saw Theon lead the Ironmen out of Moat Cailing, to their deaths. Which is why he say to Theon< Kinslayer and All you are is false. It is also why he doesn't seem that worried about Theon. He wants to get Boltons and Freys.

The Blackfish is near 60. I don't think that he could have swam underwater half a mile, with his sword, armor, and food, and then out ran 100's of men on horse back the next few days. I don't think he ever left RR. I also think that is why Jon C, POV had a castle hid in it. The hid did not in anyway help his cousins. It was there to show that some castles have hid's in them.

I'm pretty sure the Hooded Man is Theon having a Tyler Durden moment.

- The Hooded Man is extremely familiar with Theon from the outset and this doesn't bother Theon in the slightest.

- The Hooded Man is the only person to immediately recognize Reek as Theon, and he does so instantly and from a distance.

- Theon has no hesitation about showing his maimed hand to the HM, but immediately afterwards he is humiliated at the idea of showing his hands to the gathered Lords.

- The HM calls Theon a "kinslayer". As is made patently clear from the rest of Theon's chapters, no one considers the Starks to be Theon's kin, no one except Theon that is.

- There is Theon's fragile mental state and his incident of "missing time" that point to things not being quite right in his head.

- The meeting with the Hooded Man is the pivotal point for Theon. Theon's defiant attitude at the end of his conversation with the Hooded Man is the moment when "Theon" begins to overcome "Reek", and what happens at this moment, the Hooded Man walks away.

Not too mention that all of the other proposed answers, Davos, Blackfish, Benjen or gods forbid the Miller all make absolutely zero sense to me.

As far as POV's are concerned I think Martin has said there won't be any new character POV's,but that doesn't preclude existing characters such as Mance or even a Bolton.

I think the HM is the Liddle for reasons I've posted in several HM threads.Personally I would prefer it was a northman who understands the importance of a Stark in Winterfell,and operates on guile,wits and bravery.

The Durden thing has been done before and would seem like a cheap trick to me,especially in a POV chapter format.

Apologies, I didn't want to turn this into another Hooded Man thread.

I tried to look at what is left of ASoIaF in terms of writing and pick up some conclusions from OOU. For example, given that the story will be finished in two books, and not all of this can deal with the north, we shouldn't get any new plot twists but resolution to the existing ones.

[Black Crow]

I tried to look at what is left of ASoIaF in terms of writing and pick up some conclusions from OOU. For example, given that the story will be finished in two books, and not all of this can deal with the north, we shouldn't get any new plot twists but resolution to the existing ones.

Agreed absolutely, the time of mysteries is over and I think that resolutions are due, its just that they're not going to be as trite as a lot of people still seem to think (Gods know why)