Black Crow Posted February 3, 2013 Author Share Posted February 3, 2013 I have a suspicion that their place as GS's have been replaced by Men -certain lines that is have the trait and were provided as a sacrifice.Now with the pacts forgotten they have been driven to "coerce" the next GS into the service.Leaf said that their numbers are few because they live so long, so i'm guessing that a GS haven't been born- how ever they reproduce- among them in a while.But why?I suppose the easy answer might be that those who possessed the right genes died in the Andal invasion, but I suspect that's way too easy and still don't trust them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted February 3, 2013 Author Share Posted February 3, 2013 ...It would appear that the Starks answer to a higher God than other men. The God of Winter. The Old Gods. It is not their place to entertain Southron ambitions, they have other duties. After all, Winter is coming...In the continuing absence of the Like button, may I say that while I'm not entirely convinced by all of this, it is a quite splendid post with a lot of good food for thought.The only thing I'd mention is that there's no mention in song and story of the First Men encountering exceptionally bad/cold weather before the Long Night, and that if the human greenseer business goes way back beyond Bloodraven (as I suspect it does) then we're probably talking about that Last unknown Hero, rather than the original Pact. But hey, you never know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sojourner Posted February 3, 2013 Share Posted February 3, 2013 Yeah, well it comes back to why do they need a human greenseer?Maybe it's not his race, but his blood? Bran is brother to a King, and descendant of Kings.Edit - By this i mean, what if the Children have a similar view of kings as Mel does? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ponys123 Posted February 3, 2013 Share Posted February 3, 2013 So, heretics, do we have any hard reason to believe Jon is not the Chosen One, wont to save the world through the magic of cheesy storytelling?Jon saving the world and ruling happily ever after with Dany is the conclusion I dread the most, but also expect - because it always happens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted February 3, 2013 Author Share Posted February 3, 2013 I refer you to GRRM's comment in the OP. :cool4: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ponys123 Posted February 3, 2013 Share Posted February 3, 2013 That's not enough to calm me, though. GRRM might as well have thought that we'll think Jon is truly dead, and that his resurrection/recovery would surprise us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted February 3, 2013 Author Share Posted February 3, 2013 Whether Jon is dead and resurrected or not this isn't going to end in a surfeit of cheese. His "oh you think he's dead" comment pretty well established he's not out of the story so the only surprise may be the manner of his return, either way we've seen enough to give us comfort that this isn't going to end with Jon riding a dragon to victory over the Others in order to prove that he really is the rightful heir to the Iron Throne.I don't, to be honest, see this ending in a mighty victory at all. If it does Jon will be Cu Chulainn - dead at his post with the Crow eating his face, but I'm honestly coming around to the suspicion that it won't be a matter of a mighty battle but a persuading of the Others/Sidhe to go back through the door.One thing I am certain of, however, is that the Wall must come down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alienarea Posted February 3, 2013 Share Posted February 3, 2013 Whether Jon is dead and resurrected or not this isn't going to end in a surfeit of cheese. His "oh you think he's dead" comment pretty well established he's not out of the story so the only surprise may be the manner of his return, either way we've seen enough to give us comfort that this isn't going to end with Jon riding a dragon to victory over the Others in order to prove that he really is the rightful heir to the Iron Throne.I don't, to be honest, see this ending in a mighty victory at all. If it does Jon will be Cu Chulainn - dead at his post with the Crow eating his face, but I'm honestly coming around to the suspicion that it won't be a matter of a mighty battle but a persuading of the Others/Sidhe to go back through the door.One thing I am certain of, however, is that the Wall must come down.That is a task for Roger Waters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Profion Posted February 3, 2013 Share Posted February 3, 2013 I think this was discussed before here in Heresy Threads, I read somewhere that Martin said that the unbalance of seasons is not natural and was triggered by a magic cause... There´s a lot of speculation on the subject, but what kinda of magic would be powerful enought to do that? and was it an accident? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted February 3, 2013 Author Share Posted February 3, 2013 That's why I mentioned the Wall coming down.Great magic has obviously gone into the building of it and great magic still goes into the sustaining of it. Something that big has to be upsetting the balance and that balance can only be restored by destroying the Wall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Profion Posted February 3, 2013 Share Posted February 3, 2013 it does make sense, would be fun if what they thought that was protecting them, whas actually causing their worst problems... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted February 3, 2013 Author Share Posted February 3, 2013 That's why this is the Heresy thread - and while it will indeed be "fun" some of us are deadly serious about this. While the orthodox view is that the destruction or breaching of the Wall will be a disaster allowing the Others to come flooding through, its more likely that its destruction is what is necessary to resolve this mess and restore the balance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Little Wing Posted February 3, 2013 Share Posted February 3, 2013 I don't, to be honest, see this ending in a mighty victory at all. If it does Jon will be Cu Chulainn - dead at his post with the Crow eating his face, but I'm honestly coming around to the suspicion that it won't be a matter of a mighty battle but a persuading of the Others/Sidhe to go back through the door.Will the Others/Sidhe be persuaded to go back through the door if Jon concedes to come with?In Tyrion's chapter in AGoT, when they are on their way to the Wall, when Jon and Tyrion return to the camp after their little talk - Benjen, not knowing where Jon was all that time tells him not to go off like that: "I thought the Others had got you." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
armidil0 Posted February 3, 2013 Share Posted February 3, 2013 Will the Others/Sidhe be persuaded to go back through the door if Jon concedes to come with?In Tyrion's chapter in AGoT, when they are on their way to the Wall, when Jon and Tyrion return to the camp after their little talk - Benjen, not knowing where Jon was all that time tells him not to go off like that: "I thought the Others had got you."Well, I always thought that everybody was claiming a Stark for the upcoming winter. And I figured the Others claimed Jon with the white direwolf. Only instead of grooming and training him like the other Starks, they are using him and setting him up for when he falls, the Wall will fall with him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted February 3, 2013 Author Share Posted February 3, 2013 Will the Others/Sidhe be persuaded to go back through the door if Jon concedes to come with?I've argued quite a way back that the Others are not the threat they appear to be because otherwise the story is going to be completely unbalanced because the Others (quite literally) don't have a substantive presence and its too late in the day to provide one.Put it this way. If we strip all of the magic out of the story and restrict it to the Game of Thrones then an ending which hypothetically sees an unholy alliance of Jaimie Lannister and Jon Snow united to fight a battle against Dany and Aegon to prevent a Targaryen restoration would work in story-telling terms because the characters are real and known to us, albeit Aegon is something of a puppet and a front man for Varys and Illyrio but its the same difference.The point is that the story would be resolved by the characters we know rather than some stranger rushing on to the stage five minutes from the end.Ultimately then I have a suspicion that the Others are not a force or faction in themselves, but have been summoned or allowed through the door to increase the pressure and to aid one of the existing factions by way of a massive distraction/diversion.Consequently I don't see them being defeated or the story being resolved by their defeat, but their departing as a direct result of their sponsor/paymaster - a person or faction already known to us but not yet identified as such - being defeated or killed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Little Wing Posted February 3, 2013 Share Posted February 3, 2013 I have a sneaking suspicion you have a name in mind, for this sponsor/paymaster we've already encountered, but won't tell until we all guess are brains out :PETA: So, um... the Children? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted February 3, 2013 Author Share Posted February 3, 2013 Cui bono - who benefits? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Little Wing Posted February 3, 2013 Share Posted February 3, 2013 Oh, I was going off of that assumption that the Children were the ones to "let them in" to help them with the Hammer... so, they benefited in that way, but since it's just an assumption... :dunno: Anyway, now that I've mentioned the Hammer I remembered Robert also using a hammer...him being a Storm Lord using a hammer and the Storm God (that we've connected to the Others) being instrumental to the Hammer of the Waters could be an interesting parallel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonNonRegis Posted February 3, 2013 Share Posted February 3, 2013 I'm pretty sure the Hooded Man is Theon having a Tyler Durden moment.Agreed, for all your reasons and a few more. For instance, Theon is struggling with his identity all through that chapter... and it's titled "The Ghost in Winterfell" because Theon is that ghost (GRRM's chapter headings always apply to the POV).The Hooded Man is just a more concrete version of an idea GRRM uses elsewhere. Specifically, the bit where Jaime says to himself that he meant to become Arthur Dayne, but instead became the Smiling Knight. The Hooded Man is similarly the version of himself that Theon wishes he had become -- the hero, confident and bold, who is loyal to the Starks and committed their causes -- but now never will become. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mace Cooterian Posted February 3, 2013 Share Posted February 3, 2013 In keeping with the re-occuring theme of Heresy and Football, I am wondering if the King's Hand has peered into the fires of R'Holler to provide us guidance on today's Superbowl Game, so that all fellow Heretics might propser in his wisdom!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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