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Trident full of Dogs

M + L = J and Qhorin knew/suspected it? (NO crackpot)

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The whole Star Wars thing is cool. Luke fought Vader in ESB and got his ass beat. Jon fought Mance in ADWD (unknowingly) and got his ass beat. It'd be cool to see them fight again with a different result.

Having said that, your theory isn't very good and there's one thing that makes it look bad: What reasoning does Mance have to keep this secret from Jon? I understand that he doesn't NEED to tell Jon...but why the hell wouldn't he?

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I like your theory and your points even made sense. It would be more unexpected than R+L, and Jon becoming King-beyond-the-Wall would be AWESOME.

I wouldn't mind if this was true.

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I did suggest once that Rhaegar and Ashara were a pair. Or even that Ashara was at the ToJ at some point with Lyanna. If the woman the KG was protecting was actually Ashara and not Lyanna, and both were at the ToJ, then...? We need hints and clues for that though and a reason for Lyanna to be all the way down south if she wasn't the one involved with Rhaegar.

Rhaegar+Ashara could make sense seeing as both had extensive time to get to know each other. Also, Elia and Ashara getting along would be a good reason for Elia to support Ashara as possible second wife. Both are dornish, they might not have minded sharing one man.

You did? :) Maybe you should link it!

Why must we take for granted Lyanna was down south? In Bael's story the crypts of Winterfell are mentioned as a hiding place, Bran used it, who knows mybe Lyanna was in thw North all the time. Maybe Jon is really a Northman not a Dornishman.

Catelyn says when she arrived in WT for the first time baby Jon was already there. Maybe he was born there.

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You did? :) Maybe you should link it!

Why must we take for granted Lyanna was down south? In Bael's story the crypts of Winterfell are mentioned as a hiding place, Bran used it, who knows mybe Lyanna was in thw North all the time. Maybe Jon is really a Northman not a Dornishman.

Catelyn says when she arrived in WT for the first time baby Jon was already there. Maybe he was born there.

Afraid you're wrong: Ned found Lyanna at the Tower of Joy, dying in a bed of blood, e.g. she had just given birth. If you accept that Jon is Lyanna's son, you must also accept that he was most likely born at the ToJ, or explain a scenario in which a visibly pregnant woman could travel from one end of the continent to the other in the middle of a bloody civil war.

And Catelyn found Jon, his wetnurse, AND Ned at Winterfell. Whatever his parentage, Ned brought the infant with him from somewhere.

Edit: Spelling.

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I'm still reading but i will edit my post as i read along ----

I found it queer that Qhorin has just met Jon, and out of the blue, he chooses him to go scouting with him. Why? Does he know he's a warg, within a few minutes of their meeting? ...[....]

well first things first - Mance was never known to be warg - he only said he likes them ....

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Completely crackpot. Sorry.

Lets just say that if you can't figure out who Jon's parents might plausibly be from AGoT -- and AGoT alone -- then the theory doesn't work.

Maybe I'm missing something, but why do we need to be able to figure his parents out from only AGOT?

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It's a well thought theory, but the timeline just doesn't add up:

1.- We know from GRRM Jon was born 8-9 months before Dany who was born 9 moons after the sack of KL.

2.- We know that when Cat & Robb got to WF, Jon was already there and to everyone the kids had more or less the same age. Robb was concibed a couple months after the war started on Ned & Cat wedding nigth.

So in the time-frame for Jon's conception Lyanna was already "kidnapped" by Rhaegar, so how did Mance get to her?

Even if we asumme Mance had sex with Lyanna at HH of when he was visiting WF, Jon would be waaaay older than Robb....no one would pass them as having the same age.

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And since we are speaking of Wildings and their tales...I've always thought Tormund was suggesting he lay with a Mormont woman when he told Jon the story about laying with bears. That would be a nice parallel, no?

Yeh, this is one of my favourite little theories.

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If he was any sort of a musician back then, I believe they could send him recruiting. Just look at Dareon.

I like this a lot.

You mean as the NW had such a great success with Daeron, they surely must had had some experience in sending bards to do their recruiting ?

Right, I understand Dareon didn't work out well as a "recruiter", however this happened ~20 years after a possible Mance appearance at the tourney. They can't see into the future.

My point was simply, We know for a fact that there have been instances in the series where the NW would send a singer in order to recruit people.

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Because according to the editor of the series, after reading the manuscript of AGoT, GRRM asked her if she had an idea as to who Jon's parents were. She guessed right.

This, from the annotations she made for the Subtext edition of AGoT (Subtext is an ipad app).

This leaves many possible candidates, but suffice it to say, no one who has just read the manuscript of AGoT before any of the other books have seen the light of day would ever, for a moment, consider Mance Rayder as a potential father to Jon.

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I think this theory has some promise. I'm not sure if I buy it, but I like kicking the tires around a little.

What if Ned didn't reveal the secret of Jon's parents because he was worried that Robert would bring a war to the north against the wildlings? Certainly Robert would be enraged to find out someone else had been with Lyanna. The war would muck up the North and draw people up north Ned would not want around. Or worse, it would make everyone question the reasons Robert started his rebellion and undermine his whole claim. Or, Ned feared that Robert would be angry at Ned for knowing and this would destroy their friendship and possibly mean war between Robert and Ned.

I'm not sure if I agree with this, but it's worth throwing out, I think.

I should say that I'm not sure if I buy L+R=J 100% either.

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That is too good to be true...

I like it (quite a lot) but is impossible(Why Lyanna was at ToJ, why KG were at ToJ?)

Raegar may have thought he had impregnated her (Head of the Dragon prophecy and all that), but been unaware that she was already pregnant.

Personally I'd love this to be true just to cheese-off all the R+L=J theorists. :drunk:

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Mance seems the type to mention this. Especially when he half brags that the kings beyond the wall already have Stark blood. This seems the sort of thing he'd shout from the rooftops.

Or the Starks have the blood of the Kings beyond the wall. Whatever makes sense.

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Nah, I don't buy it. I am a believer of R+L=J.

Though if Jon was Mance's son, we would have seen a "No Jon, I am your Father!"

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Because according to the editor of the series, after reading the manuscript of AGoT, GRRM asked her if she had an idea as to who Jon's parents were. She guessed right.

This, from the annotations she made for the Subtext edition of AGoT (Subtext is an ipad app).

This leaves many possible candidates, but suffice it to say, no one who has just read the manuscript of AGoT before any of the other books have seen the light of day would ever, for a moment, consider Mance Rayder as a potential father to Jon.

Thanks, I had never heard that.

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You did? :) Maybe you should link it!

Why must we take for granted Lyanna was down south? In Bael's story the crypts of Winterfell are mentioned as a hiding place, Bran used it, who knows mybe Lyanna was in thw North all the time. Maybe Jon is really a Northman not a Dornishman.

Catelyn says when she arrived in WT for the first time baby Jon was already there. Maybe he was born there.

Ah, well it was on the R+L=J thread v.39...I suggested Ashara+Rhaegar and Arthur+Lyanna, it's been dismissed though for lack of textual evidence, so better not mention it... :blushing:

I like the theory of Mance, but why on earth would Lyanna be down south if her lover was a man of the Night's Watch?

We could speculate that Rhaegar was North visiting with Aemon at the time when Lyanna was 'stolen', that he and the KG accompanying him got wind of it and chased Mance across the seven Kingdoms...and then...err...Brandon got stupid, the war broke out and Rhaegar decided to confine Lyanna (gallantly rescued from Mance) and Ashara (his pregnant lover) together at the Tower of Joy? :dunno:

But what about Mance? He stole Lyanna, got her pregnant and then returned to the wall? his absence would have been noted surely... so in order for this to work, he'd have had to have a special permission to leave the Wall... Oooo! Mance was in charge of showing Rhaegar Brandon's gift and the Queens Crown, perhaps, the Lord Commander hoped to get support from the Iron Throne to rehabilitate the Gift? Then, a quick trip to Winterfell became obligatory for a meeting between Lord Rickard Stark and Rhaegar Targaryen to discuss that very possibility...and Mance decided to tag along and steal the little flower...and got the Prince in trouble, big time. Ha!

Does anyone have a better fanfiction...uhm...suggestion?

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