M + L = J and Qhorin knew/suspected it? (NO crackpot)

[Greymoon]

I think Ran's last post pretty much kills this crackpot.

it does, doesn't it? such a shame.

Hey, wasn't there another interview where it was stated R+L=J is too obvious for GRRM? I've read something about that a long while ago, so I'm really not sure but...anyway...what other clues do we have in AGoT?

[JoeA]

Because according to the editor of the series, after reading the manuscript of AGoT, GRRM asked her if she had an idea as to who Jon's parents were. She guessed right.

This, from the annotations she made for the Subtext edition of AGoT (Subtext is an ipad app).

This leaves many possible candidates, but suffice it to say, no one who has just read the manuscript of AGoT before any of the other books have seen the light of day would ever, for a moment, consider Mance Rayder as a potential father to Jon.

I'm never sure how to interpret stories like this. I mean it's not a textual reference, it's just a suggestion that one person could guess simply from the text. And we don't know if the person had seen other parts that were edited out or had talked with Martin about things. And many stories like this are not entirely true.

And there's the fact that Martin may change his mind from the time it happened until now. That's the fascinating thing to me--everyone argues like there is one definite truth, but as of yet, there isn't. There's only different guesses.

[Jon Icefyre]

Completely crackpot. Sorry.

Lets just say that if you can't figure out who Jon's parents might plausibly be from AGoT -- and AGoT alone -- then the theory doesn't work.

Your idea is original and amusing, but it has serious flaws:

1. The chronology is wrong. Mance's only realistic opportunities to impregnate Lyanna were too early to fit with Jon's birth. The timing as described in the books implies that Lyanna got pregnant after her abduction by Rhaegar, not before. It is practically impossible to find a way that Mance could have bedded her after her abduction.

2. If Jon Snow's father were actually Mance Rayder, why would Ned Stark have had to lie and claim that Jon was his own illegitimate son. The R+L = J rationale for Ned claiming that Jon was his son was to prevent Jon from being the target of Robert Baratheon's wrath. If Mance had been Jon's father there would have been no need for Ned to lie.

In summary, this theory is inconceivable!

This, most of all.

Furthermore, there's the lack of an explanation for the Kingsguard presence at the ToJ - and no, they were very unlikely there by command of Rhaegar. Hightower explicitly states they are there because they took a vow, which would be the one above them all, the one for the Kingsguard always to be near their king. If Mance fathered Jon on Lyanna while she was in Rhaegar's custody, I very much doubt the three knights would be unaware (Dayne and Whent were ostensibly with Rhaegar in his absence).

Secondly, the looks. Jon looks so much like Ned that it's improbable that Qhorin was actually referring to Mance. And Jon and Mance do not look alike: Jon's hair is dark brown, Mance's is merely brown. Jon's eyes are grey, Mance's are brown. Jon's face is long, Mance's is sharp. Jon is lithe of build, Mance is described as a big man, with broad shoulders. In short, there are very few physical similarities between the two, and certainly not enough that Qhorin could legitimatedly say Jon had Mance's look.

Moreover, just because Qhorin says he "knew Lord Eddard", it doesn't mean he actually knew Ned enough to know he wouldn't father a bastard.

Youre making 2 different stories into 1. The fishermans daughter brought Ned safely to White Harbor, she was not the same person as Wylla in Starfall who Edric Dayne is talking about being Jon's mother to Arya.

Rhaegar didnt enter the war until it was halfway through. So basically Mance would have had to cross Westeros during a war and slept with Lyanna while Rhaegar was still there.

I dont see that happening.

Afraid you're wrong: Ned found Lyanna at the Tower of Joy, dying in a bed of blood, e.g. she had just given birth. If you accept that Jon is Lyanna's son, you must also accept that he was most likely born at the ToJ, or explain a scenario in which a visibly pregnant woman could travel from one end of the continent to the other in the middle of a bloody civil war.

And Catelyn found Jon, his wetnurse, AND Ned at Winterfell. Whatever his parentage, Ned brought the infant with him from somewhere.

Edit: Spelling.

It's a well thought theory, but the timeline just doesn't add up:

1.- We know from GRRM Jon was born 8-9 months before Dany who was born 9 moons after the sack of KL.

2.- We know that when Cat & Robb got to WF, Jon was already there and to everyone the kids had more or less the same age. Robb was concibed a couple months after the war started on Ned & Cat wedding nigth.

So in the time-frame for Jon's conception Lyanna was already "kidnapped" by Rhaegar, so how did Mance get to her?

Even if we asumme Mance had sex with Lyanna at HH of when he was visiting WF, Jon would be waaaay older than Robb....no one would pass them as having the same age.

Because according to the editor of the series, after reading the manuscript of AGoT, GRRM asked her if she had an idea as to who Jon's parents were. She guessed right.

This, from the annotations she made for the Subtext edition of AGoT (Subtext is an ipad app).

This leaves many possible candidates, but suffice it to say, no one who has just read the manuscript of AGoT before any of the other books have seen the light of day would ever, for a moment, consider Mance Rayder as a potential father to Jon.

Sorry Trident full of Dogs but pretty much all of this together destroys your theory. Honestly it all comes down to the timeline if Mance were to have impregnated Lyanna before she left with Rhaegar then Jon would be older than he is percieved to be making it much harder for Ned to claim as his bastard in a way that makes sense with the timeline, and there would have never been the whole Ned finding Lyanna in a bed of blood scene at the TOJ suggesting she had just given birth(she was at the TOJ with Rhaegar for almost a year). This means the only chance Mance would have had is after Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna and i'm sorry but there's just no evidence to suggest that he did in the slightest. You adding cirumstances/possible situations that you made up in your head that allow Mance to steal/impregnate Lyanna after Rhaegar abducted her when there is no evidence in the books that suggest Mance did this makes ur suggestion 100% pure speculation, therefore making it a crackpot theory. You always have to make sure you consider the timeline in your theories....

[Ran]

It's a fact that someone can guess it simply based on AGoT. We know Anne saw the manuscript of GoT, period, because what she saw was the book in pretty much its complete form (she came on late as editor for it, since she was at a different publisher when RH won the rights). There weren't any substantial changes at that stage.

Anne's also specific that it's after she read it that George asked her. Not after lots of other stuff like talking about it or outlines. After she read it.

There's a definite truth. We know GRRM has this particular detail figured out and planned from the beginning. We know that he uses it as a litmus test -- he asked David and Dan the exact same question he asked Anne.

He could feasibly change his mind at some point, but that's going from one truth to another truth. (I'll add that I don't believe George would ever do this. He's said as much. Changing foundational ideas like that is the way towards madness.)

As it is, the only truth we know is that GRRM has it settled in his mind (but yes, he could change it), and as early as right after AGoT, he thought someone might be able to guess it.

[CorkyRogers]

Because according to the editor of the series, after reading the manuscript of AGoT, GRRM asked her if she had an idea as to who Jon's parents were. She guessed right.

This, from the annotations she made for the Subtext edition of AGoT (Subtext is an ipad app).

This leaves many possible candidates, but suffice it to say, no one who has just read the manuscript of AGoT before any of the other books have seen the light of day would ever, for a moment, consider Mance Rayder as a potential father to Jon.

This being my first post, I hope I don't step on any toes. But this was exactly what I was going to post. I believe it was an Entertainment Weekly article that had that quote from the writers/creators of the show. Basically when GRRM was approached to get permission to do the show, they did a whole song and dance about production values and this and that, then at the end GRRM asked if they had figured out who Jon's father was. They answered correctly and he agreed to the show. And of course the power of the interwebs is failing me bc I would love to post that link to that particular article.

As much as I really like the Mance theory, I just keep going back to that EW article. Given the info that was available at the time, I don't think you can make any other conclusion. On the other hand, GRRM definitely has the right to change things if he so feels like it, so what do I know.

Hope that wasn't too bad of a first post .

[Jon Icefyre]

This being my first post, I hope I don't step on any toes. But this was exactly what I was going to post. I believe it was an Entertainment Weekly article that had that quote from the writers/creators of the show. Basically when GRRM was approached to get permission to do the show, they did a whole song and dance about production values and this and that, then at the end GRRM asked if they had figured out who Jon's father was. They answered correctly and he agreed to the show. And of course the power of the interwebs is failing me bc I would love to post that link to that particular article.

As much as I really like the Mance theory, I just keep going back to that EW article. Given the info that was available at the time, I don't think you can make any other conclusion. On the other hand, GRRM definitely has the right to change things if he so feels like it, so what do I know.

Hope that wasn't too bad of a first post .

Welcome!!!! That's was a very good first post, and I would like to add that GRRM has also stated in interviews that he doesn't change his stories if the plot has become to obvious to the readers. So readers figuring out the truth about R+L=J before GRRM confirms it would not incline him to change the story to something different for Jon.

[WiDMNDBAMMD]

....But that Black Brother WAS there. It could have been Mance for all we know. Maybe he met Lyanna there.

All evidence that we know says he wasn't there. For the past thirty years Yoren has been the recruiter for the Night's Watch. After being missing for quite some time, LC Jon Snow appoints a new one.

One wondering crow is "for all we know" all there is at any given time. Since Harrenhall was during the last thirty years. It more than most likely Yoren.

Also we know that for a fact that Mance Rayder was a Ranger of the Night's Watch, not a recruiter so again more evidence that he was not there.

[Starks Among Us]

I like this theory very much! I am a fan of the traditional R+L=J but this one has also crossed my mind. I've often had the feeling while reading the books that there are some characters who seem to give off the impression that they know there is something special about Jon. Aemon, Benjen, LC Mormont, Qhorin, Mance, Ygritte and even some of the other wildlings. Now there is no proof to say that they know or to say that there even is something special about Jon, it's just the impression that I get from reading some conversations.

Another thing I think (and I have been ripped apart for this as it's totally crackpot lol) I think Jon was born prior enough to Rhaegar leaving for the Trident that Lyanna could have gotten pregnant a second time and then died having a miscarriage or giving birth a second time. So to me, that could explain why Lyanna was with Rhaegar, but could also explain why Mance could be Jon's father. Perhaps, they were all three at the tourney and perhaps Mance had made his trip to WF or the surrounding area prior to the tourney and met Lyanna, heck, we know black brothers are more than welcome at WF, he could have even met Lyanna before on a trip to WF, and Benjen got recruited from somewhere/by someone. Also, it seemed as though he knew WF pretty well. We speculate that the knight of the laughing tree was Lyanna or Howland Reed...could it have been Mance? Or perhaps Lyanna really was the KotLT and Rhaegar followed her, realized it, then later decided to kidnap her not realizing she was already knocked up with Mance's baby, then after the child was born he knocked her up again to fulfill his prophecy.

There also is the underlying theme throughout the story that Rhaegar "kidnapped and raped" Lyanna...what gives people this impression? How do they know she didn't go willingly? Or do they know she didn't go willingly....? Why didn't Aery's demand Rhaegar give her back and realize that he was dishonnering the house of Stark? Was Varys even at this point poisoning the crown against the Starks?

One thing we do know from the text is that even after Mance turns wildling, he still crosses the wall "more than half a hundred times" I think that is mentioned at some point in SoS when Jon is getting ready to cross with the wildlings, that Mance had already done it on numerous occasions...and on the last occasion, brought back Dalla and Val ...is Mance truly climbing the wall when he goes? We saw how dangerous that is, and on his way back with two women? I mean,we saw how difficult it was to scale the wall even with a large amount of people and ladders, how difficult would it be for one man to scale a wall half a hundred times and the one time with two women? That just doesn't make sense to me, but then again, maybe I'm misinterpretting the text (def would not be the first time)???? But to my understanding the last time he went south he traveled far enough south to join Robert, then came up to WF. What purpose could he have had to do this? Why did he want to go to WF with Robert? Was it so he could get a glimpse of Jon? Had he done it in the past on previous trips south of the wall? Also, I think it says he brought Val and Dalla back with him on his return trip from WF, which I understood to mean prior to him having to cross the wall.

My point I guess, is that I do like your theory and agree with it and support it as an alternative to R+L=J. I also think that its not unlikely as we know Mance has travled south of the wall on many occasions while I wildling so it's not unfeasible to say that he didn't do it as a Crow. It would not suprise me at all if the tale of Bael the Bard is true in it's literal sense in this story, but I also dont think it likely. Either way, I'm not sure which theory I like better R+L=J or M+L=J....

[Trident full of Dogs]

It's a fact that someone can guess it simply based on AGoT. We know Anne saw the manuscript of GoT, period, because what she saw was the book in pretty much its complete form (she came on late as editor for it, since she was at a different publisher when RH won the rights). There weren't any substantial changes at that stage.

Anne's also specific that it's after she read it that George asked her. Not after lots of other stuff like talking about it or outlines. After she read it.

There's a definite truth. We know GRRM has this particular detail figured out and planned from the beginning. We know that he uses it as a litmus test -- he asked David and Dan the exact same question he asked Anne.

He could feasibly change his mind at some point, but that's going from one truth to another truth. (I'll add that I don't believe George would ever do this. He's said as much. Changing foundational ideas like that is the way towards madness.)

As it is, the only truth we know is that GRRM has it settled in his mind (but yes, he could change it), and as early as right after AGoT, he thought someone might be able to guess it.

Oh the pity.

I'd really like M + L = J to be a possibility. As I said, it would be great if Jon were a Northman not a Dornishman.

[Jon Icefyre]

Oh the pity.

I'd really like M + L = J to be a possibility. As I said, it would be great if Jon were a Northman not a Dornishman.

Being the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna would still make him a Northman Lyanna is a Stark and Jon was raised in the north his entire life. Besides Targs aren't even considered Dornishman they are considered Valyrian if anything.

[Starks Among Us]

Being the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna would still make him a Northman Lyanna is a Stark and Jon was raised in the north his entire life. Besides Targs aren't even considered Dornishman they are considered Valyrian if anything.

I like this point, and we can see threw Theon's story line that where you are raised can have a much bigger impact than where you were born or the name you carry. For all intents and purposes, if the theory of R+L=J is true, Jon is indeed a Northman because that is where he was raised, that is what he knows. You take him from there and put him in Dorne or Valayria...he'd have no clue what to do it would be major culture shock.

[RenlySupporter16]

No... Simply put...no no and a thousand times no

[Yukle]

One thing we do know from the text is that even after Mance turns wildling, he still crosses the wall "more than half a hundred times" I think that is mentioned at some point in SoS when Jon is getting ready to cross with the wildlings, that Mance had already done it on numerous occasions...and on the last occasion, brought back Dalla and Val ...is Mance truly climbing the wall when he goes? We saw how dangerous that is, and on his way back with two women? I mean,we saw how difficult it was to scale the wall even with a large amount of people and ladders, how difficult would it be for one man to scale a wall half a hundred times and the one time with two women? That just doesn't make sense to me, but then again, maybe I'm misinterpretting the text (def would not be the first time)???? But to my understanding the last time he went south he traveled far enough south to join Robert, then came up to WF.

...

My point I guess, is that I do like your theory and agree with it and support it as an alternative to R+L=J. I also think that its not unlikely as we know Mance has travled south of the wall on many occasions while I wildling so it's not unfeasible to say that he didn't do it as a Crow. It would not suprise me at all if the tale of Bael the Bard is true in it's literal sense in this story, but I also dont think it likely. Either way, I'm not sure which theory I like better R+L=J or M+L=J....

This sums up what I was thinking rather well except for that fact that by the end of the thought processes, I still think I prefer Lyanna and Rhaegar. Mance's role in the series seems more like a plot device than anything else.

As a reader, I'd feel more satisfied reading Jon is the secret heir to the Seven Kingdoms rather than Jon is the heir to nothing much at all since the Free Folk only had a "King" to escape the Others and even then didn't kneel to him or anything.

Surely GRRM will be going for the most dramatic revelation... yeah?

[JonnSnow]

I dont buy this theory.

I dont really care about R + L = J because Jon is true hero of the story anyways. But i think he is truly and Ice and Fire together.

My theory is that Rhaegar was a scholar andit is possible that he learned/read about the prophecy that the person who is a true combination of Fire and Ice can save the realm from upcoming Apocalypse (Battle w Others). Now he is from house which worships Fire. He knows Starks belong to Ice. So he thought that his union with Lyanna Stark can produce the child who can save their world. So he decides to woe her at the tourney. Lyanna falls for the charm of Rhaegar and here we have Jon who is going to save the seven kingdoms from upcoming disaster.

[FittleLinger]

As it is, the only truth we know is that GRRM has it settled in his mind (but yes, he could change it), and as early as right after AGoT, he thought someone might be able to guess it.

Alle-f*ckin-lujah!!

Just this.

Still, kudos for the Mance theory. It's something.

But yeah.

[Longspear Ryk]

As much as i would loveeee for mance to be jons father, its just not plausible or likely at all...

[Cersei of the Kingsguard]

Raegar may have thought he had impregnated her (Head of the Dragon prophecy and all that), but been unaware that she was already pregnant. [...]

ehmmm this is brilliant you guys claim Lyanna at age 16 slept with at least 3 differend guys in 1 year .....

are we still talking about Lyanna Stark or maybe Cersei is Jon Snows mother ?

- take a hint from Cersei "even Jamie next to Rheagar looked like a boy" - i find it easy to belive that romantic Rheagar with his looks had no trouble make 16 year old Lyanna fall inlove with him.

[Trident full of Dogs]

Here I am again... can't let go of the idea of M + L = J. :bang: :bang: :bang:

After all, the only reason it would be impossible IMHO is the thing about GRRM and his editor that a poster above has brought up. If it's a true fact that happened just like that, all right it does kill the theory. Even if the text in the five books we have so far doesn't kill it. Hey who knows. Maybe the GRRM/editor story didn't happen strictly like that or maybe GRRM was testing the strengh of R + L as a false clue people would easily fall for. Maybe the editor got it wrong, maybe GRRM didn't want to give away Jon's parentage and he is waiting until the last book. I don't know, really. All I know is, if GRRM's plan is M + J = J, he's done a nice job about it so far.

I'm rereading ADWD and all these little details pop out. I might be putting myself out to be a target for mockery (mock is fun! ) but I'm really going to insist and keep posting the stuff I think supports Mance and Lyanna being Jon's parents. Why not? Theorizing is a big part of the fun for many people, if it doesn't prove true in the end at least I'll know I had fun. And it does make you look at the books from a different angle, which can be very interesting. So, here's some I found intriguing in ADWD:

1- Mance actually says he tasted the northman's daughter! He's joking, he's singing The Dornishman's Wife for Ramsay and his boys and he changes the lyrics to make it a funny song. But listening to Mance say that, while he is in Winterfell of all places... gave me chills.

2- When Melisandre asks Mance to rescue "Arya", he doesn't ask for anything in return, he doesn't refuse her, instead he accepts the task immediately. Does he have an agenda of his own? Or he just wanted to help his son's "sister"?

3- More references to scaling the Wall and towers. He says it would be so easy to get into Jon's rooms and kill him if he wanted to. So it's pretty clear Mance is established as a very good climber. He could have climbed ToJ... or Winterfell's walls to Lyanna's room. Wherever Jon was conceived.

4- Mance's eyes were described as brown in ASOS. In Melisandre's POV chapter in ADWD she notices Mance's eyes change color form GREY to brown when he's not wearing the shirt of bones which weakens the glamour. But Rattleshirt's eyes are described as "little yellow eyes" in ADWD, was that a typo? So why grey if neither characters' eyes are supposed to be grey? Well Jon's eyes being grey, maybe it was a Freudian slip on Martin's side. Or, just a typo...

And, not specifically about ADWD, Jon and Mance's relationship screams of future change of feelings _ a change for more trust and more appreciation. They aren't antagonists at all, which one could expect them to be considering Jon has lied to Mance and betrayed him. Why doesn't Mance hate him? If he is Jon's father, no further explanation needed.

Also both songs are too much. Bael the bard is completely literal. And The Dornishman's wife? Mance sure sings that song a lot; and he says to Melisandre he tasted the dornishman's wife, and what if also that was literal? Maybe he DID go to Dorne... maybe The Dornishman's wife is his own fake name for Lyanna, if he doesn't want people to know about the Northman's daughter who was held captive in Dorne, he can still sing about her and have his little secret.

And his story about remembering Jon's face when he was a little boy? Why would he remember a little boy's face, years ago? Why was he out there in the snow anyway, and "happened" to meet Jon? Maybe he wanted to see his son's face and went looking for him, I could believe that he did remember his own boy's face.

I find these details about Mance and Jon to be a good build up for future revelations, if there will be any. And if Jon is really the PTWP, what's the problem if he's not Rhaegar's son? Mance is a King too. And at least for me as a reader, a living father for Jon would be so much better than a dead one...

[Jon Icefyre]

Here I am again... can't let go of the idea of M + L = J. :bang: :bang: :bang:

After all, the only reason it would be impossible IMHO is the thing about GRRM and his editor that a poster above has brought up. If it's a true fact that happened just like that, all right it does kill the theory. Even if the text in the five books we have so far doesn't kill it. Hey who knows. Maybe the GRRM/editor story didn't happen strictly like that or maybe GRRM was testing the strengh of R + L as a false clue people would easily fall for. Maybe the editor got it wrong, maybe GRRM didn't want to give away Jon's parentage and he is waiting until the last book. I don't know, really. All I know is, if GRRM's plan is M + J = J, he's done a nice job about it so far.

I'm rereading ADWD and all these little details pop out. I might be putting myself out to be a target for mockery (mock is fun! ) but I'm really going to insist and keep posting the stuff I think supports Mance and Lyanna being Jon's parents. Why not? Theorizing is a big part of the fun for many people, if it doesn't prove true in the end at least I'll know I had fun. And it does make you look at the books from a different angle, which can be very interesting. So, here's some I found intriguing in ADWD:

1- Mance actually says he tasted the northman's daughter! He's joking, he's singing The Dornishman's Wife for Ramsay and his boys and he changes the lyrics to make it a funny song. But listening to Mance say that, while he is in Winterfell of all places... gave me chills.

2- When Melisandre asks Mance to rescue "Arya", he doesn't ask for anything in return, he doesn't refuse her, instead he accepts the task immediately. Does he have an agenda of his own? Or he just wanted to help his son's "sister"?

3- More references to scaling the Wall and towers. He says it would be so easy to get into Jon's rooms and kill him if he wanted to. So it's pretty clear Mance is established as a very good climber. He could have climbed ToJ... or Winterfell's walls to Lyanna's room. Wherever Jon was conceived.

4- Mance's eyes were described as brown in ASOS. In Melisandre's POV chapter in ADWD she notices Mance's eyes change color form GREY to brown when he's not wearing the shirt of bones which weakens the glamour. But Rattleshirt's eyes are described as "little yellow eyes" in ADWD, was that a typo? So why grey if neither characters' eyes are supposed to be grey? Well Jon's eyes being grey, maybe it was a Freudian slip on Martin's side. Or, just a typo...

And, not specifically about ADWD, Jon and Mance's relationship screams of future change of feelings _ a change for more trust and more appreciation. They aren't antagonists at all, which one could expect them to be considering Jon has lied to Mance and betrayed him. Why doesn't Mance hate him? If he is Jon's father, no further explanation needed.

Also both songs are too much. Bael the bard is completely literal. And The Dornishman's wife? Mance sure sings that song a lot; and he says to Melisandre he tasted the dornishman's wife, and what if also that was literal? Maybe he DID go to Dorne... maybe The Dornishman's wife is his own fake name for Lyanna, if he doesn't want people to know about the Northman's daughter who was held captive in Dorne, he can still sing about her and have his little secret.

And his story about remembering Jon's face when he was a little boy? Why would he remember a little boy's face, years ago? Why was he out there in the snow anyway, and "happened" to meet Jon? Maybe he wanted to see his son's face and went looking for him, I could believe that he did remember his own boy's face.

I find these details about Mance and Jon to be a good build up for future revelations, if there will be any. And if Jon is really the PTWP, what's the problem if he's not Rhaegar's son? Mance is a King too. And at least for me as a reader, a living father for Jon would be so much better than a dead one...

Although I don't agree with you this really is some entertaining stuff and it does make me look at the story from a different perspective whether I want to or not lol. I applaude your creativity but there's one flaw in TPTWP thing. TPTWP is supposed to have some form/combination of fire and ice, so if Mance was Jon's father then Mance and Lyanna's union would only form ice as they are both of the north. But if Rhaegar is Jon's father then Jon would have the combination of fire and ice TPTWP is said to have. Rhaegar/Targ=fire Lyanna/Stark = ice therefore R+L=J/fire+ice=TPTWP. Remember TPTWP has a song of "ice and fire".

[Brian King]

So what Eddard said about Lyanna was true then.. she was a wild one, Robert, Raegar and Mance? Somebodys about to get told they are NOT the father!

Not sure why you find it odd that Qurin would ask him to go scouting right away when Jon had already proved that he was a very capable warrior, and I am sure word traveled fast, and Im sure he would have liked the chance to get to know the new Guy.. real simple.

Wouldnt Lyanna's Wolf Pup brother be the youngest of the Starks?... Benjen? and at this point was he recruited to Join the Nightswatch by Mance?