The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread

[Lord Stark]

My guess on the first person to post it would be Ran, or at the very least he seems like the most likely to know for sure who posted it first.

As to who thought it first? Who knows. As Mister Manticore said, could have been a proof reader, or someone else who was lucky enough to read it before the book was sold. We will never learn who the first person to think of this is... Other then GRRM that is, unless R+L=L isn't true hehe.

[mentarman]

We will never learn who the first person to think of this is... Other then GRRM that is, unless R+L=L isn't true hehe.

Well, I think even if it isn't true, GRRM thought it up first. Meaning, I think the evidence is strong enough that either it is true or it is a red herring. Either way it's a theory that he intended readers to at least consider. I don't think it's possible, given the evidence in the books, that this theory is something that never occurred to GRRM and we're just making it up from whole cloth.

PS: BTW, this is part of why I think the theory is true, because this seems quite the complicated and exciting red herring for it to be revealed that....surprise! Jon is really just he son of Ned and Wylla or Ned and Ashara. Unless there is an even more complicated theory that this is a red herring for.

[A wilding]

I am fairly sure that R+L+J predates the board (by which I mean the predecessor of this board as well). I first saw it on the old Dragonstone board IIRC about a year or so after AGoT came out.

Ran will know for certain.

[jc1138]

I have no problem admitting I never thought it up independantly. I had read through Storm of Swords (in 2002) before I really started frequenting ASOIAF sites and came across it then. I was impressed with Martin's exceptional story-telling when I saw how all the pieces fit so well but were still understated. Of course, R+L=J could be untrue, but what a ride!

[Werthead]

So during the BwB London meet-up earlier this evening, GRRM's Significant Other, Parris, turned up (possibly one of the nicest people you will ever meet). During discussions about the series, she reiterated a point that she has made before, that R+L=J is an extremely obvious thing to do in the series, and George doesn't do obvious, leaving the likelihood of that theory being correct much reduced.

So, what other options does that leave? A favourite theory of mine is that Lyanna is still Jon's mother, but Jon's father could very well be Aerys. Aerys was also at the Harrenhal Tourney and could have sent Rhaegar to kidnap her from Winterfell. This theory has some interesting side-effects, including the fact that if Aerys in his lunacy actually married Lyanna, that would make Jon the rightful king even ahead of Daenerys. But that's just my take on it.

[Grumpygoat]

Simply put, I find the whole "Martin doesn't do the obvious" thing bullpockey.

What he does is make a fairly good show of hiding his foreshadowing. Some were surprised by Eddard's death, despite Cersei's comment that, when you play the game of thrones, it's win or die.

Similarly, the dragons rebirth was foreshadowed when she put them into the brazier, when she held the eggs against her belly.

If anything, I find her comment misleading. While Rhaegar and Lyanna may not be right, its foreshadowing is along the same lines as was done for Eddard's death, or Dany's dragons.

[MattTaz]

Eddard for me (and nearly everybody here) was an honourable man. For him not to tell Jon who his mother was (Ashara or Wylla) because of his honour is just plain cruel - which doesn't fit with his character. (Not to mention when/wehere the conception took place, Jon is Robb's age after all)And for all this time for Jon to be just a Stark bastard of Eddard's would be a major disappointment. I mean what was all this point of this secrecy of he just turns out to be what we presumed him to be all along.

Lyanna was pregnant. I think most here agree with this. She died in a bed of blood, Theon dreamed of her with gore all over her dress. But most of all Dany's vision of "A blue flower growing in a Wall of Ice". Name the two characters who this represents and most of you would immedietely say Lyanna and Jon.

Jon is Lyanna's son. Jon looks like her and Arya looks like Ned and Lyanna etc etc. If Parris is telling the truth then we will learn more about Lyanna's 'abduction' in the coming book I think and who may have impregnated her

[SergioCQH]

Parris has held this position for a loooong time. Nothing new.

[The Lord Dragon]

Could Jon be the son of Lyanna and Robert? That would also make him King. Maybe Robert had sex with Lyanna before she was abducted by Rhaegar? How long was Lyanna with Rhaegar? This was just a thought. If anyone has any proof to disprove it I would love to hear it. R+L=J is my favorite theory, but I am trying to consider others.

[TheMalcolm]

she reiterated a point that she has made before, that R+L=J is an extremely obvious thing to do in the series,

But it isn't that obvious. Very few people find this theory by themselves.

I believe vast majority of GRRM readers never thought about R+L=J.

[Nasmodeus]

agreed I for 1 didn't really connect the dots till I came on here,

im not ashamed, it just never crossed my mind.

[Werthead]

I picked up on it the first time I re-read A Game of Thrones, even if it was a bit obtuse. I think the problem is that the information is presented in a manner that discourages questioning it. For example, we are told that Ned is honourable and never ever lies. Then Catelyn immediately says that Ashara Dayne is Jon's mother. It's only a few chapters later, when Ned tells Robert that Wylla is Jon's mother, that we realise for the first time that there is more to this than meets the eye. Throw in Lyanna dying in a manner highly reminiscent of childbirth, and there is much more cause for doubt.

[Lany Freelove Cassandra]

I thought the whole Jon mystery was weird, knew there had to be more to it, but until I read somewhere about R+L=J I never connected the dots. Once I thought about it, it made sense, but it was in no way obvious...not like the direwolf dead with a horn from a stag in it's throat...now that was obvious.

[Enguerrand]

So during the BwB London meet-up earlier this evening, GRRM's Significant Other, Parris, turned up (possibly one of the nicest people you will ever meet). During discussions about the series, she reiterated a point that she has made before, that R+L=J is an extremely obvious thing to do in the series, and George doesn't do obvious, leaving the likelihood of that theory being correct much reduced.

This always makes me wonder if she has ever read the series. Pretty much everything in the books are more OBVIOUS then R+L=J. The Red Wedding was so obvious that I expected some bait and switch, Greywind wont enter the twins!!! Please

And really it's not difficult to make your plot indiscernible; all you have to do is write badly.

[Colder Hands]

the first time i read the book i thought R+L=J, and so did my friend. it seemed obvious to me, which is what made me question it. it felt to, in my lap, to be real. but as always we can speculate and debate for years. seems like thats what grrm would want, so the demand for his book will stay high.

just because george does not do obvious, means nothing really. as its not that obvious or it would not be such a popular discussion. and it is not obvious to the westeros world. sometimes you need to give the reader somehing to know, or feel smart about. perhaps this is all he did here.

in any rate, i will continue to believe in r+... until a book comes out that says definitifly one ay or another.

because THATS how i roll

[ironmaid]

So during the BwB London meet-up earlier this evening, GRRM's Significant Other, Parris, turned up (possibly one of the nicest people you will ever meet). During discussions about the series, she reiterated a point that she has made before, that R+L=J is an extremely obvious thing to do in the series, and George doesn't do obvious, leaving the likelihood of that theory being correct much reduced.

So, what other options does that leave? A favourite theory of mine is that Lyanna is still Jon's mother, but Jon's father could very well be Aerys. Aerys was also at the Harrenhal Tourney and could have sent Rhaegar to kidnap her from Winterfell. This theory has some interesting side-effects, including the fact that if Aerys in his lunacy actually married Lyanna, that would make Jon the rightful king even ahead of Daenerys. But that's just my take on it.

While the R+L=J has presented itself to me almost form the start of my reading in the series, I can't say that its an obvious premise in the story. There is enough ambiguity surrounding Jon's parentage for it to be one of a number of theories.

However, the theory you propose here is indeed an interesting twist and I'm surprised no one on this thread has related to it thus far.

I actually see it as viable option, definitely one that will open up a nest of delightful hornets. Good thinking, however it turns out.

[Ashara Stark]

So during the BwB London meet-up earlier this evening, GRRM's Significant Other, Parris, turned up (possibly one of the nicest people you will ever meet). During discussions about the series, she reiterated a point that she has made before, that R+L=J is an extremely obvious thing to do in the series, and George doesn't do obvious, leaving the likelihood of that theory being correct much reduced.

Werthead, do you remember which where her exact words? I mean, could it be possible that R+L=J is true but that there is more to it than what we have already guessed?

Because I cannot think of other alternatives that fit so well with all the hints GRRM has included in the books until now

[Alwyn]

This theory has some interesting side-effects, including the fact that if Aerys in his lunacy actually married Lyanna, that would make Jon the rightful king even ahead of Daenerys. But that's just my take on it.

Whether Jon is Aerys's son or Rheagar's he is still ahead of Dany in the line of succession. She is female after all, and for her to be queen in her own right all her brothers and all her brother's children have to be dead.

But it isn't that obvious. Very few people find this theory by themselves.

I believe vast majority of GRRM readers never thought about R+L=J.

I know I didn't, the first time I read the "who are Jon's parents" as the title where the theory was explained. I went "what? that's stupid, we know who Jon's parents are, Ned and that women whose name I can't remember." I was dead wrong of course.

However my friend did figure this theory out on her own, and on her first read of the books, which proves that it must be sort of obvious.

[Shewoman]

Like your friend, I figured it out on my first read. That doesn't necessarily make it obvious; perhaps we're brilliant!

If Jon is Robert's son, why didn't Ned tell him that? Why couldn't Robert raise him?

I don't see any way that Robert and Lyanna had contact during the time in which she must have become pregnant. He and Ned were at the Aerie with Jon Arryn when Aerys demanded their heads (after Brandon and friends went to Kings Landing to call Rhaegar out, so Lyanna was well vanished by then); Arryn called his banners and voila! war resulted.

Aerys could be a possibility, but I doubt he married her. If he did, why not make it public? There's that Targ history of polygamy.

[Artanaro]

I keep telling people, telling people, and telling people, but no one will listen. Honestly, the truth is right there for everyone to see if they just consider the facts and think a little.

Artanaro