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The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread


Stark Future

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Also, you need only look at Joffrey to see what a great father Robert is. Hell, by the time Jon was born/Ned arrived, Robert was already as good as king, if he hadn't been crowned yet, and Tywin's offer of Cersei as his Queen could have been accepted already. There is no way Cersei would put up with having Robert's bastard running around, especially with him being older than any of her children. Better to have the bastard be a potential confusion as to the second heir to Winterfell (Robb would still be first) than the first heir to the Iron Throne.

Good Point. Ned already disliked the Lannisters - And he knew a Lannister marriage was coming. If Robert is Jon's father then Lyanna had really good foresite to the situation at hand.

"You never were the boy you were," Robert grumbled. "More's the pity. And yet there was that one time.... what was her name, that common girl of yours? Becca? No she was one of mine, gods love her, black hair and these sweet big eyes, you could drown in them. Yours was Aleena. No. You told me once. Was it Merryl? You know the one I mean, your bastard's mother?"

"Yet there was that one time".... If Robert was present while Ned was fooling around with some serving girl then Jon's mother actually could be Wyalla.

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I keep telling people, telling people, and telling people, but no one will listen. Honestly, the truth is right there for everyone to see if they just consider the facts and think a little. :D

"The facts"? We are talking about FICTION here, Artanaro, and about fiction seen through the eyes of imaginary characters who are part of it, besides. :rofl:

And although I regard you as a quite pleasant and intelligent poster, I think grumpygoat has a point, or rather more than one, with his criticism of your position. Actually, I have read many posts from many people, both pro and con L+R=J, but I can´t remember anyone being as stubborn in his/her refusal to accept the validity of another possible solution to the Jon-mystery as you are.

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"You never were the boy you were," Robert grumbled. "More's the pity. And yet there was that one time.... what was her name, that common girl of yours? Becca? No she was one of mine, gods love her, black hair and these sweet big eyes, you could drown in them. Yours was Aleena. No. You told me once. Was it Merryl? You know the one I mean, your bastard's mother?"

"Yet there was that one time".... If Robert was present while Ned was fooling around with some serving girl then Jon's mother actually could be Wyalla.

As this was discussed thoroughly, let it just be said simply: it could be Wylla, or it could be that Ned is not refuting Robert's assumption here. Given the length Ned went to in order for Jon's parentage to remain in the shadows both possibilities are valid.

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Riiiiight. I see that that that point sparked some interesting discussion, so here's what I remember (whilst recalling a large amount of alcohol was consumed in the interim).

Parris doesn't get to see the finished book much before anyone else. She is George's first reader, so sees the finished product before even the editors and makes comments on it, but that is it. That said, they do discuss the storyline and some directions the story is taking ahead of time, but as for reading the written product...not before George has finished it. Apparently the sole exception to this was The Armageddon Rag, where George needed her advice on what songs to put in the book, as she was a bit more familiar with the 1960s rock 'n' roll scene.

According to Parris, she did come up with a few alternative suggestions for Jon's parentage that George wouldn't comment on, but apparently one suggestion did provoke one of George's 'evil smiles' (apparently deployed whenever he has come up with an extremely cunning plot twist). However, absolutely no amount of persuasion or bribery would get her to reveal what that theory was.

The only thing I can honestly predict about the theory is that there is going to be a serious twist to it. Either Rhaegar and Lyanna did have a child and they died or they're somewhere else entirely (Greywater Watch is a good idea). However, maybe that is the case and simultaneously there's a little more to Jon's parentage then we thought.

I like my Aerys theory. It has the right ring of being absolutely fu**ed up that we have come to expect from GRRM.

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If 10% of all advocates of one theory are hardcore believes, and, say, 60% of all users here believe in Rhaegar and Lyanna as Jon's parents...well, I think I'm around user 3,000-3,500 or some such? 4,000, 5,000 users? Many of whom don't post, mind you, but, still...that's roughly 2,200 or so people that support Jon as a Targaryen. Of which, 220 believe it with absolute certainty.

Of course, I pulled those numbers completely out of my nethers.

It's a well known fact that 92% of all statistics are made up........

Personally if R+L=J turns out not to be true there's going to be some book-burning in my backyard.

Though i wouldn't mind if R+L= somebody else. There might be a character out there we haven't met yet, just so long at R+L happened i'm happy.

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During discussions about the series, she reiterated a point that she has made before, that R+L=J is an extremely obvious thing to do in the series, and George doesn't do obvious, leaving the likelihood of that theory being correct much reduced.

This is a tricky thing about Martin. He (mostly) doesn't use tired cliches and cheesy fantasy stereotypes. His plots are interesting, with lots of curveballs and bait-and-switches thrown in. However, he is still writing a fantasy story with roots in mythology, history, and even fantasy fiction. We are obsessed with Martin not doing the "obvious" thing. We forget that sometimes he does do the "obvious" but in a very well-written manner. It seems like every time someone has a theory there is a person saying that the theory isn't Martin's style because it is to typical to modern fantasy fiction.

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I've a feeling GRRRM can't win on that one anymore. Whoever Jon's parents are, there's been so much written about it that a proportion of people is bound to scream blue murder at the truth.

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Riiiiight. I see that that that point sparked some interesting discussion, so here's what I remember (whilst recalling a large amount of alcohol was consumed in the interim).

Parris doesn't get to see the finished book much before anyone else. She is George's first reader, so sees the finished product before even the editors and makes comments on it, but that is it. That said, they do discuss the storyline and some directions the story is taking ahead of time, but as for reading the written product...not before George has finished it. Apparently the sole exception to this was The Armageddon Rag, where George needed her advice on what songs to put in the book, as she was a bit more familiar with the 1960s rock 'n' roll scene.

According to Parris, she did come up with a few alternative suggestions for Jon's parentage that George wouldn't comment on, but apparently one suggestion did provoke one of George's 'evil smiles' (apparently deployed whenever he has come up with an extremely cunning plot twist). However, absolutely no amount of persuasion or bribery would get her to reveal what that theory was.

The only thing I can honestly predict about the theory is that there is going to be a serious twist to it. Either Rhaegar and Lyanna did have a child and they died or they're somewhere else entirely (Greywater Watch is a good idea). However, maybe that is the case and simultaneously there's a little more to Jon's parentage then we thought.

I like my Aerys theory. It has the right ring of being absolutely fu**ed up that we have come to expect from GRRM.

Seeing that you are summing up this particular burst of theorizing on Jon's parentage, I'll take a detour from the topic to ask you Werthead: what is the meaning of the last line of your signature? :)

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It's a well known fact that 92% of all statistics are made up........

Well, the point was to illustrate that I think most Rhaegar and Lyanna supporters can accept the possibility that Jon really may be Ned's, but that reasonably, there's no way for me to find out with any accuracy, nor for anyone else to accurately find the opposite.

As for Nia's remark on screaming blue murder about Jon's parentage, whether it's Rhaegar or Ned that's the father, I'll be dandy. I support the Rhaegar theory, but that doesn't mean I've ruled out anything with Ned and Wylla or Ned and Ashara.

For that matter, I think a bastard of Ned's might exist. And that what happened with Jon, Gilly, and Mance's child might parallel something that happened with Ned.

Of course, if Jon turns out to be Brandon's and Lyanna's...or Ned and Lyanna's...that might make me twitch.

But just as I think Rhaegar and Lyanna have the strongest case, I see no holes in the idea that Jon is Ned and Ashara's, or Ned and Wylla's.

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Seeing that you are summing up this particular burst of theorizing on Jon's parentage, I'll take a detour from the topic to ask you Werthead: what is the meaning of the last line of your signature? :)

One of the new mottos of the Brotherhood Without Banners (the GRRM appreciation group, not the fictional group) is "What Would Randyll Tarly Do?", based on the fact that Randyll is quite clearly the most kick-ass person in the books. He's Westeros' version of all those Jack Bauer/Chuck Norris quotes going around the internet. During a BwB meet-up in London last night the question of what exactly Tarly is responsible for in the books came up and several conclusions were reached (i.e. pretty much everything), including the fact that Randyll Tarly's member quite clearly is the Tower of Joy :D

It makes more sense when you're drunk.

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If the Wall falls there will still be a Night's Watch. They were created before the Wall was created (some speculation there) and will last after the Wall falls. I don't think the Night's Watch can be destroyed unless all humans die. The real question is what if the Others are destroyed.

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If the Wall falls there will still be a Night's Watch. They were created before the Wall was created (some speculation there) and will last after the Wall falls. I don't think the Night's Watch can be destroyed unless all humans die. The real question is what if the Others are destroyed.

Well, seeing the current state of Westeros, and the current state of the night's watch, it's my belief that either the Others will be destroyed, either humanity will, should the wall fall (it's likely it will). I know not everybody agrees with me :)

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Two things struck me about Ned when I first read Game of Thrones. The first was that he thinks about Lyanna, the promises he made to her, and her death an awful lot. It's been fourteen years and he's still obsessed with those memories, with those promises, and what it's cost him to keep them. And isn't it odd that, although we're told repeatedly how close they were, I think only one of his memories of her does NOT involve her deathbed (I'm putting his memory of her screaming his name at the end of his dream of ToJ into that category)? That's when he remembers her saying that Robert would never be faithful to her . . . which is probably germane to her relationship with Rhaegar. No memories of growing up together ever surface except for that. So there's a bit of mystery there: why do these memories still have such power for him? What promises did he make? What was the price he paid to keep them?

The second thing that struck me is that he's got a bastard son--which doesn't fit real well with everything else we hear about his character, although of course it's possible. But in his thoughts he doesn't think of Jon as his own son, although he obviously loves him, and at least once leaves him out of a mental list of his children. And telling Catelyn "He is my blood" sounds like someone trying to a) shut her up without B) actually lying; it's certainly not as straightforward as "He's my son." Odd. He refuses to tell anyone, including Jon, who his mother is in spite of the fact that this silence on his part creates some relational havoc within his family. Certainly Jon, at least, has a right to this information. Robert, Catelyn, and Cersei all have candidates for Mom--even twelve-year-old Ned Dayne later weighs in on that one. So it's not just me; there's some curiosity in Westeros on that score. Bit of a mystery there as well.

It's not unreasonable to assume that these mysteries are connected, especially when we factor in the fact that Lyanna spent months, apparently, with Rhaegar in what people generally assume was some sort of sexual relationship, Lyanna's bloody bed, and the fact that Ned does not seem to have a baby with him when he and his friends go to Tower of Joy but he has one when he gets back to Winterfell. Certainly at some point we're going to need to find out what those promises were and who Jon's mother is. Those answers don't have to be connected, but it does seem strange for honorable Ned to have two entirely unrelated mysteries in his life.

If Lyanna is not Jon's mother, the explanation of his parentage doesn't have to deal with the promises she required of Ned (although, again, sooner or later we're going to have to hear about that). But it does have to explain 1) how it happened that Ned brought Jon with him home from the war, 2) why in his thoughts (and in his comment to Catelyn) he does not think of Jon as his son (and if Jon isn't his, why he looks like a Stark), and 3) why he never told anyone--even Jon--who his mother was. And, Grumpygoat, I think that takes Wylla out of contention. I can't think of any reason for Ned not to tell the world she's Jon's mother when apparently she's spreading that word herself at Starfall.

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Well first off he promised Lyanna for whatsoever reason, and if she made him promise, and he was roberts, there was reason for it. Not only that, Robert loved Lyanna and the fact of knowing he killed her, (in a way) would make him depressed if not angry. And the blame for Lyanna's death would fall on Jon. Not a very good father to son relationship.

Why couldn't Ned tell Robert if Jon is Robert and Lyanna's? You say because of the promise. But why the promise? Backers of the R+L=J theory, right or wrong, have posited a reason to keep Jon's secret: Jon's Targ blood would make him a target for Robert. What we're asking for is a likely reason to keep Jon's real heritage a secret if you think he is the child of Robert and Lyanna.

As for the second part, that Jon caused Lyanna's death (I guess you mean through complications of birth), I don't see this as a good reason for a grand conspiracy to hide Jon's identity. Especially considering how common death for women due to childbirth was during time periods like the setting of this series.

Also, you need only look at Joffrey to see what a great father Robert is. Hell, by the time Jon was born/Ned arrived, Robert was already as good as king, if he hadn't been crowned yet, and Tywin's offer of Cersei as his Queen could have been accepted already. There is no way Cersei would put up with having Robert's bastard running around, especially with him being older than any of her children. Better to have the bastard be a potential confusion as to the second heir to Winterfell (Robb would still be first) than the first heir to the Iron Throne.

Robert may not have made a good father to Joffrey (though I think that can be argued), but how could Ned or Lyanna have known that at the time this conspiracy would have been hatched? That can be an excuse after the fact, but if we're trying to find out why they would have done it, that doesn't fly.

Fear of Cersei/Lannisters is a little more promising, but it still doesn't convince me. I don't think they knew how calculating Cersei was then. Plus Robert already has a bunch of bastards, at least one older than Joffrey that we know of (though a girl). It's arguable how much these bastards even trouble Cersei. While I don't think she's excited about them, I don't think she cared much about them until several short-lived Hands discovered her children's true parentage and these bastards became a possible challenge to her son's legitimacy on the throne. It's only when Robert's gone and has no heir with Cersei and that becomes at least somewhat known that the bastards are much of a threat.

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"The seed is strong."

Jon is not Robert's. We would know immediately.

Hey! I nearly wrote that a few hours ago (but didn't bother) :P .

It makes no real sense for it to be Robert anyway. Not from what Robert says, not from what little we know of Lyanna. Hell, why not SOTM then?

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One of the new mottos of the Brotherhood Without Banners (the GRRM appreciation group, not the fictional group) is "What Would Randyll Tarly Do?", based on the fact that Randyll is quite clearly the most kick-ass person in the books. He's Westeros' version of all those Jack Bauer/Chuck Norris quotes going around the internet. During a BwB meet-up in London last night the question of what exactly Tarly is responsible for in the books came up and several conclusions were reached (i.e. pretty much everything), including the fact that Randyll Tarly's member quite clearly is the Tower of Joy :D

It makes more sense when you're drunk.

Oh, that tower of joy...

thanks for clarifying it :rofl:

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Robert may not have made a good father to Joffrey (though I think that can be argued), but how could Ned or Lyanna have known that at the time this conspiracy would have been hatched? That can be an excuse after the fact, but if we're trying to find out why they would have done it, that doesn't fly.

Fear of Cersei/Lannisters is a little more promising, but it still doesn't convince me. I don't think they knew how calculating Cersei was then. Plus Robert already has a bunch of bastards, at least one older than Joffrey that we know of (though a girl). It's arguable how much these bastards even trouble Cersei. While I don't think she's excited about them, I don't think she cared much about them until several short-lived Hands discovered her children's true parentage and these bastards became a possible challenge to her son's legitimacy on the throne. It's only when Robert's gone and has no heir with Cersei and that becomes at least somewhat known that the bastards are much of a threat.

So we have two possible outcomes from Ned presenting Robert with his Bastard son by Lyanna.

1: Robert does what he's done with all his other bastards and abandons him. Ned is left to take his sister's son back to Winterfell to be raised knowing that he was rejected by his true father.

2: Robert accepts the child because it was from Lyanna, and raises him in King's Landing. Ignoring what Ned may or may not know about Cersei, the bastard would be an offense to all of House Lannister, and Ned certainly knows what happens when you offend Tywin Lannister.

Note that I don't really think Robert being the father is very likely, as that would mean Lyanna actually slept with him. I'm just saying that the whole Ned claiming the child as his own still makes sense if Robert is the father.

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Probably already been said in this thread but I'll say it just the same

Given Robert's obvious hatred and hostility for any "spawn" of the Targareyns, even Lyianna's child may not have been safe if Robert knew it was Rheagar's. Infact, this may have put Jon at greater risk.

If Jon is Lyanna's by Rhaegar, then that might have been part of the reason why Ned kept this a secret, as well as the dying wish of Lyanna "promise me Ned"....

TynMahn

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