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The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread


Stark Future

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The second thing that struck me is that he's got a bastard son--which doesn't fit real well with everything else we hear about his character, although of course it's possible.

This is one of the central reasons people believe R+L=J, but it's actually a really bad arguement to make. Here's an analogy on a book I'm pretty sure Martin has read, The Killer Inside Me by Jim Thompson. The main character brutally kills numerous people, but whenever someone begins to suspect him, they shrug it off, because he's just not that type of person. He's nice, gentel and considerate at times, and very polite. It doesn't fit his character to be so cold-blooded and fiendish.

To say one way or another whether Eddard Stark is the kind of person that would commit adultery, we need two things.

1. Significant access to his thoughts and memories, which he denies the reader in AGOT, otherwise we'd know for sure who Jon's parents really are.

2. Intimate knowledge of the experiences, which shaped his character (family background, first love, past relationships, etc).

Since we have neither, anyone who says he's not the kind of person to have a bastard is making an unwarranted assumption on their own belief that an honourable person wouldn't do that. There are circumstances when every person might commit adultery.

But in his thoughts he doesn't think of Jon as his own son, although he obviously loves him, and at least once leaves him out of a mental list of his children.

This is wrong and ignoring the context of that statement. Post the quote again and I'll point out why.

If Lyanna is not Jon's mother, the explanation of his parentage doesn't have to deal with the promises she required of Ned (although, again, sooner or later we're going to have to hear about that). But it does have to explain 1) how it happened that Ned brought Jon with him home from the war, 2) why in his thoughts (and in his comment to Catelyn) he does not think of Jon as his son (and if Jon isn't his, why he looks like a Stark), and 3) why he never told anyone--even Jon--who his mother was.

True, but there are theories that answer all of this.

Artanaro

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Artanaro said: To say one way or another whether Eddard Stark is the kind of person that would commit adultery, we need two things.

1. Significant access to his thoughts and memories, which he denies the reader in AGOT, otherwise we'd know for sure who Jon's parents really are.

2. Intimate knowledge of the experiences, which shaped his character (family background, first love, past relationships, etc).

Since we have neither, anyone who says he's not the kind of person to have a bastard is making an unwarranted assumption on their own belief that an honourable person wouldn't do that. There are circumstances when every person might commit adultery.

Me: Actually, I'm basing it on the reactions of other characters in the book.

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Me: Actually, I'm basing it on the reactions of other characters in the book.

That's the problem. No character in the book meets the standard for judging Ned. There are some characters who meet the requirement for other people. (Tyrion can judge Cersei pretty well, because she's very open).

Generally, any character who is a true extrovert (Ned isn't one) provides a suitable amount of information for others to judge what he might and might not do. But even in these cases, they work with imperfect knowledge.

Artanaro

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Parris has said something extremely similar a while back -- I didn't take it to heart then and I still don't now. Sure, it's possible R+L=J isn't true, but it isn't likely. There are a lot of clues leading up to it and while each of them can be ignored or explained away by other theories, the whole is more than the sum of its parts. At this point, if R+L=J is not true, it won't be a red herring -- it'll be a red whale. Red herrings are OK; red whales are ugly. Every other theory I can think of or I've heard makes some parts of the book look worse (less plausible, less engaging, etc.).

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Artanaro, I'm talking about the quote somewhere between p. 485-7 of the American paperback of GoT, where Ned wonders what he would do if a someone else's child threatened Robb, Sansa, Arya, Bran, or Rickon--he names his children in order and Jon's not on the list.

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"A blue flower growing in a Wall of Ice"

A blue flower... to me that implies that Jon is the son of Lyanna + a Tyrell, possibly Mace? Blue flower... ie: the ice of Stark and the flower of house tyrell?

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The other thing is though... Parris had to say something, and if this is the key to one of the biggest mysteries of the series, she couldn't outright lie about it, or confess to it and ruin future books... instead she might have chosen to mislead people by stating facts in a manner that conspicuously leads people away from the truth (That R+L=J is the real deal)

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I've arrived at a point where I kind of no longer care who Jon's parents are.

I used to be a staunch R+L=J supporter, but nowadays I'd prefer it to be anything but that. I'd even take A+L=J over R+L=J, because it would give the story an interesting twist.

Heck, I'd even be happy if Ned actually turns out be Jon's father after all.

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Has anyone ever thought that because its so obvious Parris and GRRM both are attempting to throw us off by pointing out that its obvious? Its an old trick of magicians everywhere, hide the truth in plain sight but distract the viewer with a little fanfare and he'll never catch it until it smacks them in the face.

Rhaegar and Lyanna had a child and Ned Stark named him Jon. It was obvious by the end of AGoT and I was among the many who thought I was the first to discover it only to come here and find it discovered years ago. I feel like Christopher Columbus ;)

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IIRC, GRRM said that what might be obvious to hardcore fans like us might no be for the majority of readers... I'll keep believing in R+L=J until GRRM proves me wrong.

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In the microcosm in which only you and your friends to whom you have reccomended the book exist . . .

YOU are the first person to have dicovered R+L=J.

Whatever you do, don't let them know this board exists. Many years of uncanny insight into the hidden nuances of A Song of Ice and Fire lie before you yet.

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I was actually wondering this, but figured I would get shot down for starting yet another R+L=J thread, especially since I no longer have the excuse of beign a n00b.

The first person who figured it out, no doubt hte first person to have got their hands on aGoT and who thought of it.

But I too would really like to know who the first person to post it on a board, any board, was, the one who made everyone gasp at the crackpot theory! Or perhaps everyone else on siad board had already figured it out but never posted it. Perhaps it was the person who started the very frist aSoIaF board.

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In the microcosm in which only you and your friends to whom you have reccomended the book exist . . .

YOU are the first person to have dicovered R+L=J.

Whatever you do, don't let them know this board exists. Many years of uncanny insight into the hidden nuances of A Song of Ice and Fire lie before you yet.

No, it was actually me. I read it and saw the potential there and told George over a pint of the blackstuff. He liked my idea a lot and integrated it into the books.

I rule.

Edit: grammar

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In the microcosm in which only you and your friends to whom you have reccomended the book exist . . .

YOU are the first person to have dicovered R+L=J.

Whatever you do, don't let them know this board exists. Many years of uncanny insight into the hidden nuances of A Song of Ice and Fire lie before you yet.

:rofl: too late for me. My friend figured it out on her own, which I didn't, though for whatever reason she never clicked into teh Loras and Renly are gay theory, which I did. Plus she's already found a french board, so I am now no more use to her, except as entertianment as I bite my lip in an effort not to reveal anything from aFfC which isn't out here yet.

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No, it was actually me. I read it and saw the potential there and told George over a pint of the blackstuff. He liked my idea a lot and integrated it into the books.

I rule.

Edit: grammar

Hmm. So we know now who to blame/thank!

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WOW...

I have this new theory that is like so cool...

So Lyanna dies in the Tower of Joy after she feld with Rhaegar, in a bed covered with blood, so its like she was having a baby, you know what I mean. And the she makes Ned promised something while she dies, after he had killed 3 of the Kingsguard.

And then, like Ned goes North and says he sired a bastard named Jon Snow.

So Jon must surely be Rhaegar & Lyanna's son!!!

Else why would be 3 of the Kingsguard be watching over Lyanna because she was giving birth? Because the baby would be like a Taragyen and like heir to the throne or something, right??

:D

Amazing and it all fits together... lol lol lol

What do you think?

WOW!!!!

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