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The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread


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WOW...

I have this new theory that is like so cool...

So Lyanna dies in the Tower of Joy after she feld with Rhaegar, in a bed covered with blood, so its like she was having a baby, you know what I mean. And the she makes Ned promised something while she dies, after he had killed 3 of the Kingsguard.

And then, like Ned goes North and says he sired a bastard named Jon Snow.

So Jon must surely be Rhaegar & Lyanna's son!!!

Else why would be 3 of the Kingsguard be watching over Lyanna because she was giving birth? Because the baby would be like a Taragyen and like heir to the throne or something, right??

:D

Amazing and it all fits together... lol lol lol

What do you think?

WOW!!!!

It doesn't work if you don't have these lines at the top:

I don't know if this has been discussed before... I tried the search but found no threads on the subject... so, anyway.... - now insert -

I have this new theory that is like so cool...

:lol:

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holy macaroni Batman!

I cant believe that no one else thought this up before . . .

this will change everything!

I hope its not just another crackpot theory

lol lol lol

Yeah dude...

I was like "wow... it all fits like perfectly" y'know what I mean?

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For...the...love...of...God!

I think I need to start combining these Jon's parentage threads before the entire board collapses under the weight of them.

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I've combined the four (four!!!) L+R=J threads we had going into one. Please don't start a new one unless it's coming at the question from a totally different angle.

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I'm having a hard time believing that Jon Snow is the son of Robert Baratheon and Lysa Tully. :P

Why not?? It fits perfectly.But I think that he was adopted by Littlefinger and Varys,who are gay couple.Eddard was Littlefinger's ex-boyfriend("I tell you not to trust me"),and Littlefinger dumped him because he had "cold"...eh,cock.You know,he was cold man,he had cold cock.So Eddard kidnaped Jon,as a revenge to Littlefinger.Jon is acctually son of Ashara Dayne(he killed herself when she saw how much is boy looking like father) and Bitter.Bitter became insane like ke is now when he entered the Oldtown bordel where Sam Tarly offered himself,and Imp was pleasuring men with his cock(remember it from AFFC?).Of course,it is possible that real Jon was replaced with Aegon sixth,so Jon is Aegon.Oh,and Ygritte is acctually so of Bitter and Lysa(Bitter was once singer),so we have new incest pair here.

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I've combined the four (four!!!) L+R=J threads we had going into one. Please don't start a new one unless it's coming at the question from a totally different angle.

Unless it's stickied, it won't work I don't think. People don't read.

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This KAH's contribution to the old FAQ thread. Very long, beware

WHO ARE JON'S REAL PARENTS?

Introductory

The debate has largely revolved around the theory that Jon, despite what the people of Westeros seems to believe, is in fact _not_ Ned's son...but the product of the union of Rhaegar Targaryen and Lyanna Stark.

No doubt there can be made many alternative theories regarding who Jon's parents are, but one undisputable fact narrows it down...Jon looks like Ned Stark - thus, it stands to reason that at least one of the parents is of Stark blood.

The further discussion will center around the most likely alternatives:

*Rhaegar Targaryen and Lyanna Stark

*Ned and Wylla

*Ned and Ashara Dayne

The writer of these words is a firm believer in the Rhaegar+Lyanna alternative, but I shall nonetheless try to be as unbiased as possible...

I will set subsections for the alternatives under header Pro or Contra - insofar as they stand individually.

I will denote pro-arguments with a (+), con-arguments with a (-), and the ensuing debate from these arguments with (++), (--), (+++), (---) etc., as the sides try to debunk the pro and cons the other side presents.

In any case, a (+) will invariably be in favor of the alternative, while a (-) will be set against it [i.e., two minuses does not make a plus: a (-) under 'Contra' will be a debunking point for the alternative at hand].

In some cases, there will be sort of a 'editors comment' that (hopefully) will come out as neutral - largely for fleshing out the debate, or general clarification. These will be denoted (0).

The alternatives

1. Ned and Wylla

Pro:

(+) Two people - Ned Stark himself, and Edric Dayne, both claim that Jon is the off-spring of a union of Ned Stark and a common woman called Wylla.

The fact that the two people who bear witness could not have conspired to 'stick to a story', so to speak, gives the statements greater weight.

[NOTE: I need quotes for these two incidents]

(-) How credible are the witnesses? Ned Stark could be lying. Edric Dayne was not even born when Jon was conceived - hearsay.

(++) Ned Stark is an honorable man, and he's talking to his best friend Robert Baratheon. Why would he lie?

(--) The reasoning that Ned would lie, is based on the Rhaegar+Lyanna theory - see below.

(0) Considering that Edric was not born when Jon was conceived, it seems likely that he's repeating a story. Who told him this story (servants, relatives, outsiders) is as yet unknown, and so is whether or not the story is the 'official' one, at Starfall or Dorne as such.

Contra:

(-) If Ned and Wylla really are Jon's parents, what's with all the hints that point to Rhaegar and Lyanna being his parents?

(+) That could all be Red Herrings, or things that are misinterpreted. Things may not mean what you think they mean.

(0) This particular point will be further discussed under alternative 3 - Rhaegar and Lyanna. In essence, it's trying to disprove a theory with another theory, and it may hence not qualify as an individual counterpoint...but I think it bears mentioning.

(-) If Wylla is Jon's mother, why would Ned not tell his wife and Jon? It was clear that it was a silent point of contention between Cat and Ned [AGoT 65-66], and Jon certainly had problems with not knowing [AGoT 448].

Both Cat and Jon 'knew' that Ned had cheated on his wife...so why withhold who it was? Might have given both of them peace of heart.

(+) Ned obviously felt very bad about the matter, and would not speak of the one time he disgraced himself...even Robert has to press him on it.

2. Ned and Ashara

Pro:

(+) Ned and Ashara were in love. A number of references point at this:

a) The rumors that reached Cat's ears, regarding Jon's parenthood, points at Ashara as the mother [NOTE: quote needed]

B) The story Meera tells Bran, hints at Ned falling in love with Ashara Dayne during the tourney at Harrenhal [ASoS 279-283]

c) In the godswood in the Red Keep, Cersei speculates that Ashara is Jon's mother [AGOT 487]

(-) All of these are hearsay. Cersei and Cat hear rumors whose origin is unknown. Meera's story is more than likely

learned from their father - who we do know was at Harrenhal - but does not in fact say anything about Ashara being Jon's mother.

(++) Though these points may perhaps be of dubious value as evidence for Ashara as Jon's mother, they _do_ hint at some sort of love interest between Ned Stark and Ashara Dayne. And such a connection does lend a bit of creedence to the Ned+Ashara theory...on average, people who are in love are slightly more likely to have children, than people who are completely indifferent to eachother.

(+) Moreover, Ashara apparently killed herself. Losing her lovechild to Ned might have pushed her over the edge.

(-) That could just as well have been prompted by her losing Ned to a political marriage...or, for that matter; losing her brother, slain by the man she loved.

Contra:

(-) The timetables do not work out. We have it from Martin (SSM #34) that Jon is eight or nine months older than Dany.

Dany was born pretty much nine months after the Sack of King's Landing. We know of two incidents where Ned and Ashara met - the tourney at Harrenhal, and when Ned delivered Dawn to Ashara, after the war was over.

Since the war spanned a full year, the first incident is too early, and the latter way too late, in order for Jon to have been conceived there. Jaime was 15 at Harrenhal, and 17 when he slew Aerys.

[NTS: Markus wrote a set-up for the timeline on page 3 - check up later]

(+) However, GRRM notes in the same mail that Ashara was not nailed to the floor at Starfall (or, for that matter, Dorne). She and Ned could conceivably have met in the intermediate, and done the nasty then, unbeknownst to us readers. Ned was probably all over the kingdom...who's to say that Ashara could not have met him _somewhere_? If she loved Ned, is it unthinkable that she could have sought him out? There are rumors aplenty, at least...

(--) How reasonable is it that this could happen during the war (when Ned supposedly was occupied with other things)...and without anyone finding out?

(++) Well, Martin seems to hint in his mail that something like this could have happened. Why would he bring up the point if he didn't hint at it?

(---) Or, he could just be obfuscating the matter.

(0) Note that the argument against Ashara does not hold in the same way against the commoner Wylla, as per the information we have today...Wylla might not be Dornish at all for all we know, and may have met Ned early in the campaign.

(-) If Ashara is the mother, what's with Ned telling Robert it's Wylla? Why would he lie for no good reason? Moreover, why would he not tell his family, who's agonizing over it (Cat and Jon, at least)?

(+) Well, Ned could be trying to save Ashara's reputation, and made a cover-story...much like in the R+L scenario.

(--) In that case, Ned failed miserably, considering how the Ashara rumor was all over Westeros (point in fact: Cat in Winterfell and Cersei at KL)

(+) Moreover, telling Jon about a mother who killed herself right after Ned took Jon away from her, may not have been seen as a pleasant task for Ned.

(-) If Ashara is the mother, why on earth did Ned take the baby away from her? Taking a love child from the woman who recently lost her brother, is not exactly a wise thing to do. A responsible guy like Ned should know that. Besides, Dorne is easier on bastards than the rest of the realm.

3. Rhaegar and Lyanna

(0) This theory is built up from a number of mental and oral comments from various characters in the books, which, taken together, seem to suggest a scenario where Rhaegar and Lyanna conceived a child at the Tower of Joy...and that that child is in fact Jon Snow.

Considering the vastly greater amount of discussion centering around this theory, as well as a fairly fleshed out scenario of what the people pro Rhaegar and Lyanna think happened, I will first present a short breakdown of the scenario [NOTE: if some pro-people does not agree with the way I present it, or have additional comments, please tell me!], before taking on the various evidence supporting it (and the potential debunking thereof).

The scenario:

At the tourney of Harrenhal; Robert, Rhaegar, Ned, Lyanna, and a number of other characters attend. Rhaegar wins the jousting, and instead of crowning his wife Elia as the Queen of Love and Beauty (or whatever the hell it was), he crowns Lyanna...much to the shock of the bystanders.

Some time later, Rhaegar steals Lyanna away and leaves for Dorne, setting events in motion that ends in war...and ultimately, his own death.

Before that happens, however, he spent some time with Lyanna Stark in the so-called Tower of Joy...where, as the theory goes, Jon Snow was conceived. Ned Stark later finds his sister dying, and give her a promise to raise Jon as his own.

Ned makes good on the promise, and decides to leave the world in the dark as to Jon's real parents, considering that should the truth be known, Jon would be in deadly peril...foremostly from Ned's best friend, Robert Baratheon.

---

Pro:

1. The Kingsguard at the Tower of Joy

(+) Three very prominent members of Aerys' Kingsguard sits put at the Tower of Joy, when Ned comes to find his sister. As Kingsguard, hey're sworn to defend the Royal Family.

They were not at the Trident, where Rhaegar died. They were not at King's Landing, where Aerys, Elia and her children died. They did not seek out the surviving Targaryens at Dragonstone.

So, one assumes that they must have had something important to defend there - like Rhaegar's son...

[NOTE: some relevant excerpts of the ToJ sequence would be nice here, methinks...]

(-) But Jon would be a bastard. Why should the Kingsguard care about protecting him?

(++) Well, Rhaegar could have married Lyanna as well (not unheard of with the Targaryens), or he could simply have ordered the Kingsguard to protect Jon, and screw their own feelings about the matter.

2. Ned's various reflections, and other oddities

(+) A recurring theme during Ned's PoV in AGoT, is his flashbacks to the events at the Tower of Joy - the slaying of the three Kingsguard, Lyanna dying, and a last promise she asked from him.

This promise would be that Ned would raise Jon as his own son.

[NOTE TO SELF (NTS): assorted quotes at Kate's page]

(-) The promise could also refer to Ned bringing Lyanna's bones to the Winterfell crypt. [NOTE: I'm fairly sure there's a quote in AGoT regarding this - where Ned tells Robert that it was Lyanna's wish to be buried in the crypts. Could someone indulge me...?]

(++) Why would Ned be haunted by such memories for a promise fulfilled? Once the remains were returned to the crypt, Ned had done what he should. A promise regarding Jon, however, is something he must 'fulfill' every day - he has to lie to everyone: Robert, his wife, Jon himself...this ties nicely in with the heavy price he supposedly paid, as well. [AGOT 38

(+) Ned's reflections about lies:

a) Ned's been living his lies for fourteen years - same timespan as Jon's age, at that point - still haunting his dreams

B) Lies can have honor

c) Lies can be made for love

Not something you'd expect from a supposedly honorable man, is it? Unless he had experience with lying for a good reason...like protecting Jon. If you think a lying Stark is odd, a _cheating_ Stark is still odder, no?

(-) The supposed lies could refer to something else - for instance, an affair between Ned and Ashara Dayne. Ned may have wanted to protect the reputation of the latter, and lies for her sake. Starks aren't rigidly honorable anyway - just look at Robb Stark! They do have 'slip-ups'.

(++) But then, Ned also reflects that he keeps his oaths. How does that square with him cheating on his wife?

(--) Perhaps Ned once slipped badly (for instance, by cheating on his wife), and vowed to keep his oaths _from that point on_?

(+) Ned seems to not think of Jon as his own son at a few instances - when he tells Cat that Jon is 'his blood'[AGOT 65], and later in the godswood, when he reflects on Cersei and her crimes [AGOT 486].

(-) So, now Ned Stark is doing his utmost _not_ to lie? How does that square with all that was said about him before, 'living his lies'?

(++) Well, Ned Stark may be making a little compromise here...he does not like to lie, so he tries to lie as little as possible, without giving anything away. Hence his reluctance to talk about Wylla to Robert Baratheon, for instance.

(+) Ned reflects that some things are too dangerous to be shared with anyone...this would refer to Jon, no doubt.

(-) Well, isn't that true in general as well? Must it be a reference to Jon?

[NOTE: again, various refs and quotes are needed. Check Kate's page first - I will make good use of that , so keep that in mind and avoid needless double-work]

3. The Bed of Blood

(+) Lyanna was lying in a bed of blood - something that has been referred to as tied to child birth.

[NOTE: refers to Mirri Maz Duur in AGoT - quote needed]

Robert claimed that Rhaegar raped hundreds of times...whether this is true or not, one must assume that Rhaegar spent enough time at the ToJ to feasibly get Lyanna with child. [AGoT 113]

(-) Lyanna could be bleeding because of some mortal illness we don't know of; it doesn't have to be childbirth.

4. The Winter Rose

(+) An analogy can be made to Lyanna and Jon connection, from the recurring theme of blue 'winter roses'.

Ygritte tells Jon the story of Bael the Bard, who evidently stole the only daughter of the then Lord Stark - leaving only a winter rose on her pillow. The daughter later reappears, pregnant, and gives birth to a son.

This ties in with a number of Ned's flashbacks (the crowning at Harrenhal - winter roses; dying Lyanna clutching the - apparently - same roses), Dany's vision (a blue flower growing in a wall of ice), and Theon's vision (Lyanna crowned with winter roses).

Of these, Dany's vision appears particularly significant, as one must assume that she does not have any idea about the connection of Jon and winter roses. [NOTE: various quotes/refs needed; among them some will no doubt be found at Kate's page]

(-) The winter rose may refer to Jon's Stark blood, instead of a connection to Lyanna

(-) Moreover, how reliable are these visions, anyway? Not all visions appears to come true...Dany has visions of her son Rhaego, the Stallion Who Did Not Quite Mount the World. [NOTE: quote needed...I think it may be in the House of the Undying] What qualifies one vision as more true than the other?

5. The Dragon has Three Heads

(+) Dany has a vision of Rhaegar, Elia and Aegon (his second child). Rhaegar says 'There must be one more. The dragon has three heads.' [ACoK 527 _or_ 701! NOTE: seems to be a discrepancy between cteresa and Kate's refs]

From this, one would deduce that Rhaegar - through some prophetic dream or scroll - has found out that there should be a third Targ kiddo springing from his loins...only, he apparently died before he could conceive anymore children. OTOH, if he got Jon with Lyanna, the equation would be set aright.

(-) Well, isn't Rhaegar wrong? He apparently expected Aegon to be the number one honcho after him, and he suffered from a bad case of bashed-in head. Could there not be an alternative explanation that neither we nor Rhaegar thought of? Perhaps Aegon really _didn't_ die in KL, and he's the third of another triumvirate - Dany, Aegon and Aemon?

[NOTE: Can someone _please_ take this particular argument off my hands? Haaruk, where the hell are you when you're needed???]

Contra:

(-) General debunking point regarding Ned's dream about the Tower of Joy incident...he was badly injured at the time of the dream, and delirious with fever. As such, it could be questioned whether all the relevant points in here could be taken as canon.

[NOTE: this point needs further elaboration - which of the points in Ned's dream are corroborated by the story as a whole, and which are not? Example - the three Kingsguard died there - that's pretty conclusive - while the 'bed of blood' is not, AFAICT]

(-) But if Rhaegar and Lyanna are the parents, what's with the two independent references to Wylla as Jon's mother?

(+) It's part of the cover story. Obviously, Ned could not snub his friend, the King, and tell him to take his nosy ass elsewhere...so he'd have to come up with a lie. If someone thought to look more deeply into the matter, this lie had best be corroborated by someone - like Wylla herself.

(--) If it's a cover story, the Daynes are apparently helping out. Why on earth would they help the man who is responsible for the death of Ser Arthur Dayne, and possibly Ashara Dayne as well?

(++) Well, perhaps it's because of Jon's Targaryen blood. Ser Arthur Dayne was clearly loyalist, and it's not farfetched to extrapolate that to the rest of his house as well.

6. Character appreciations

(0) Obviously, whether or not the various characters act 'in character', so to speak, would be of relevance to the

Rhaegar+Lyanna theory, thus the most important people get's a closer examination here.

For some of them, we have only other people's characterizations...which, of course, may be colored by their own biases and standpoints.

RHAEGAR

(0) One of the questions that may be of some relevance, is whether Rhaegar stole Lyanna against her will, and raped her...or if the two loved eachother, and eloped together.

While the latter is not - objectively speaking - strictly necessary wrt Rhaegar begetting Lyanna with a child (which we know he had ample opportunity to do, rape or not), it would lend more creedence to the supposition that Lyanna made Ned promise to raise Jon as his own (crf Ned's 'Promise me' reflections).

Another possibility is that Rhaegar acted the way he did because of a prophecy, and convinced Lyanna about his intentions, and made her go along with his plan (of begetting her with a child).

(+) Dany recollects stories from Viserys about Rhaegar fighting and dying on the Trident, for the woman he loved.

[AGoT 3

(-) Viserys is a vengeful nutcase, and hopelessly biased.

(+) Ned thought that Rhaegar would not frequent brothels. [AGoT 381] That sounds like Ned's thinking of Rhaegar as virtuous...strange, considering Rhaegar supposedly raped his sister.

(-) That could be one of those Targaryen oddities. Like Viserys says - 'The dragon does not mate with lesser beasts'. [NOTE - ref needed] A prostitute would qualify as 'lesser' in the minds of most of the nobility. So, Rhaegar could be 'virtuous' and evil, both at the same time.

(+) Robert recollects how he killed Rhaegar, and then says something odd: "Rhaegar...Rhaegar won, damn him. I killed him, [...]. Yet somehow, he still won. He has Lyanna now, and I have her." [AGoT 43 (note: 'her' refers to Cersei)

Doesn't this sound like Robert may have - deep down - acknowledged that Lyanna may not have been raped by Rhaegar, but in fact fallen in love with him?

(-) That's awfully vague. We don't know what Robert really meant by that...it could simply be that Rhaegar and Lyanna share something - namely death - while Robert is stuck in the living world with Cersei. We never, ever see Robert say something positive about Rhaegar, after all.

(+) Rhaegar crowned Lyanna at the tourney of Harrenhal, in front of everyone. [AGoT 631] This sounds like he's wooing her. Would a rapist bother to do such a thing?

(-) Could simply be a matter of Targaryen arrogance from the Dragon Prince. It was certainly an outrageous thing to do...right in front of the eyes of his own wife, Lyanna's bethrothed and Lyanna's family.

(+) Ser Jorah Mormont, upon observing Dany's protection of the Lhazareen slaves, likens her to Rhaegar. In that light, Rhaegar doesn't sound like all that bad a chap.

(-) Mormont may just have been aiming at make himself enamored in Dany's eyes - by likening her to the brother she hero-worships.

(-) Bran says Rhaegar raped Lyanna. [AGoT 733]

(+) Bran is parroting the general sentiment in Westeros - most people seem to believe that Rhaegar raped Lyanna; either because they truly believe so, or because saying otherwise would call Robert's wrath on their heads.

(+) Rhaegar's life seems to have been heavily influenced by prophecies. Ser Barristan tells Dany a story about the bookish kid who turned into a knight, for instance. [ASoS 91]

Also, Dany's vision of Rhaegar in the House of Undying [ACoK 527], seems to hint that Rhaegar was aware of a prophecy of him having a third child.

(+) More from Barristan - Rhaegar is remembered with great love. [ASoS 264] Barristan does seem to have very high thoughts of Rhaegar overall. [ASoS 815]

(+) Meera's story - Rhaegar doesn't sound like an insensitive rapist, seeing as he sings a song so sad it made Lyanna cry. [ASoS 281]

LYANNA

(0) What feelings did Lyanna have towards Rhaegar? Would it be in character of her to elope with Rhaegar, or fight him tooth and nail?

(+) She held some blackened roses in her hands when Ned found her. [AGoT 43-44] It seems likely that these are the same that Rhaegar gave her in the tourney. Would she hold on to those if she didn't have feelings for Rhaegar?

(+) Ned said Lyanna was willful, independent and generally strongwilled. [AGoT 221, 308; ASoS 193] Seems she would have taken umbrage at being married away to an obvious adulterer like Robert against her will [AGoT 379]...perhaps so much as to decide to elope with Rhaegar.

(-) The Starks are honorable. Lyanna would not shirk her duty to her family...which, in this case, would be to marry Robert.

(++) The Starks are like everyone else in one fashion...they are not the same. Ned is described as a sober, quiet and honorable man...Brandon is described as a hothead, and a hotblooded person with an appetite for life [NOTE: ref needed - Jaime's appreciation of Brandon, in ACoK]. Lyanna sounds more like the elder brother.

(+) Lyanna seems to have been - to some extent - impressed with Rhaegar; the winter roses (which she loves) [AGoT 631] and the song he sang at the tourney. [ASoS 281]

NED

(0) If Lyanna had a child with Rhaegar, few (if any) would argue that the honorable Ned Stark, who loved his sister, would deny her the request of raising the child as his own. Instead, the questions raised has been why Ned never would tell anyone about it.

(+) Ned had ample reason to keep Jon's origin a secret...Robert Baratheon, with his insane hatred of Targaryens, would be in a fury over hearing about Jon being Rhaegar's son with Lyanna. To ensure that he would not have to fight his best friend, he would have to keep his mouth shut...even invent a lie to cover up who Jon's real father is.

(-) But surely he could tell his wife? We all saw how Cat resented Jon's presence...the living proof of Ned's supposed infidelity. [AGoT 65-66] If she knew that Ned had not cheated on her, she'd no doubt love Jon as her own, nice guy that he is.

Moreover, Jon himself clearly was hurt by not knowing, as well as Cat's resentment towards him. [AGoT 448, 56

Could not he have been told?

(++) As Jeff likes to say, the only way to keep a secret is to tell NO ONE. If Ned told Jon, could Jon keep his mouth shut? And if Ned told Cat...well, Cat might just end up seeing Jon as a threat to her own children, knowing that the King would turn into a murderous fury, should the truth come out. Ned even speculates what Cat would do, if it was "her children's life, against that of Jon" [AGoT 486]. So Ned lied, and took the cost that came with the lie, knowing that the truth could bring death to his family.

[NTS: cteresa has lined up quite a few references at page four - check against Kate's page, to see if there are any that Kate has not provided]

[NTS: doublecheck the timeline discussion at the bottom of page 4 for important details. Head is not reliable per the moment.]

Credits: This FAQ contribution would be far less than it is today, without all those nosy people who cannot content themselves with the conventional wisdom, but has to question everything.

Thanks goes to Ran, Son of Hot Pie, Markus, Ashamanic, pfitz, Demandred, cteresa, Kate, Lord Manwoody, Stranger, Slurktan, Krafus, Trebla, snake, Arya, Jeordhi, Laughing Storm, Gregor Clegane, Arakasi, Maia, Eddard Dayne, JalynD, Angalin, Ser Davek, Ygritte, Padraig, The Sek Kings Daughter, Reuben Stark, Voland, Gigei, AshaShan, Minibro, Tinuin, Cerys the Patryn, Lady Rene...and last, but not least, all those worthy people who have been hashing this question out in the past, but whose names have been claimed by oblivion.

I would also like to thank myself - KAH - for being a generally swell guy.

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KAH's in-depth post should cover most alternatives... Some mod, please sticky this thread so we don't have another avalanche.

As an aside, I cannot for the life of me remember what were my contributions (though I was rather invested in this argument years ago).

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A few minor points, just for the sake of objectivity:

(-) If Ashara is the mother, why on earth did Ned take the baby away from her? Taking a love child from the woman who recently lost her brother, is not exactly a wise thing to do. A responsible guy like Ned should know that. Besides, Dorne is easier on bastards than the rest of the realm.

Who says she didn't die first anyway?? Taking a child from a corpse is fine. Argument dismissed :D

(-) But Jon would be a bastard. Why should the Kingsguard care about protecting him?

(++) Well, Rhaegar could have married Lyanna as well (not unheard of with the Targaryens), or he could simply have ordered the Kingsguard to protect Jon, and screw their own feelings about the matter.

He could have simply ordered the Kingsguard to protect Lyanna, and screw their own feelings about the matter. That's not a convincing point.

(+) Rhaegar crowned Lyanna at the tourney of Harrenhal, in front of everyone. [AGoT 631] This sounds like he's wooing her. Would a rapist bother to do such a thing?

Huh.................................. Yes

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Where is my original thread.?!?!?!?

:huh:

Also, like the name of the series fits like perfectly with my theory of Jon = the baby Ned his own but really is Rhaegar and Lyana's.

A song of ice and fire

lol lol

Its fits perfectly!!!

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KAH's in-depth post should cover most alternatives... Some mod, please sticky this thread so we don't have another avalanche.

As an aside, I cannot for the life of me remember what were my contributions (though I was rather invested in this argument years ago).

If people invested as much time and effort in solving global warming, world conflict, the bermuda triangle, who shot JFK and whether Jesus Christ really did marry and has sprogs in the south of France as they did in trying to second guess Jon's parentage, the world would be a marvellous place....... ;)

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Where is my original thread.?!?!?!?

It's this one. I merged all the L+R=J threads on the grounds that duplicating threads again and again counts as spamming, even if you were doing it for comedy purposes. I am going to try and get this stickied on the grounds that it is the most repetitive topic on the entire board bar none.

There are a couple further down which are kind of related to this, but advocate different theories or possibilities, so I left them unmerged.

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Werthead, thanks so much. You did a great job. And Niamh, it's nice seeing Kah's post from the old board too.

What we really need to do is pick someplace currently existing in the world and meet and have a rumble . . . you know, R+L v. N+A v. Robert+L v. Benjen+L v. N+W v. Oberyn+Santa Claus v. Jon Arryn+Catelyn (hey, we haven't seen anything about how SHE spent the war) v. . . .

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It's this one. I merged all the L+R=J threads on the grounds that duplicating threads again and again counts as spamming, even if you were doing it for comedy purposes. I am going to try and get this stickied on the grounds that it is the most repetitive topic on the entire board bar none.

There are a couple further down which are kind of related to this, but advocate different theories or possibilities, so I left them unmerged.

Party popper... :P

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