The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread

[Diva]

sorry if these quotes been used before: (Page 186 AGOT UK Paper Back)

"Ah, Arya. You have the wildness in you, child. 'The Wolf Blood' my father

used to call it. Lyanna had a touch of it and my brother brandon more

than a touch. It brought them both to an early grave."

this to me seems to support L + R = J as what could she do which could

be so "wild"? denny her father and run off with Rhaegar?

also in the same book on page 97 (ned talking to robert about Rhaegar

raping Lyanna) :

"you avenged lyanna at the trident, " ned said, halting besides the king. Promise me, ned, she had whispered.

now why would that re-occuring scene come up then? maybe he was

feeling guilty for his comment which supported Roberts view of

Rhaegar raping Lyanna? when infact that wasn't the case?

Maybe these dont support R + L = J but they do support the possibilty

that she wasn't raped, ofcourse we know this view however it could also go to

support the parents of Jon or if not the pressense of an entirely different

baby.

I personally would rather see Jon as the son of Ned and Ashara.

IMO those quotes prove nothing except there are some seriously repressed starks (like Ned and possibly Benjen), and there are the wild Starks like Lyanna and Branden. And Brandon was a lot wilder than Lyanna, as indicated by your first quote (which was the one I originally referred to a few posts back but I didn't have my book with me for exact references). I'm willing to stretch the timeline to make Brandon fit

Those who choose to believe that Lyanna willing left with Rhaegar will extrapolate 'facts' from anything they read in order to fit it with their theory. I think it is boring in extremis, and until I see it confirmed by another character - or even by Martin as author even if there are no living characters who know - then I'm NOT going to believe it.

Unacknowledged 'King in Exile' is one of my least favourite motifs from the Hero's Journey metamyth. Probably yet another reason I can't stand Dany as a character. IMO if you aren't smart enough to hold the throne, then you don't deserve to have it. And certainly your heirs shouldn't have it either.

I would like it to be Ned and Ashara too, it could be a way we get further insight into Ned as a character. And really, Catelyn is such a cow who could blame him for one last fling before resigning himself to an eternity with her in the North. But Brandon would be an interesting alternative

[Nasmodeus]

I would like it to be Ned and Ashara too, it could be a way we get further insight into Ned as a character. And really, Catelyn is such a cow who could blame him for one last fling before resigning himself to an eternity with her in the North. But Brandon would be an interesting alternative

Well if he was both brandon and lyannan then he would be pure north.

Meaning he can handle the others better than those southern fairies

[Ashara Stark]

IMO those quotes prove nothing except there are some seriously repressed starks (like Ned and possibly Benjen), and there are the wild Starks like Lyanna and Branden. And Brandon was a lot wilder than Lyanna, as indicated by your first quote (which was the one I originally referred to a few posts back but I didn't have my book with me for exact references). I'm willing to stretch the timeline to make Brandon fit

Ned says that the wolf blood led both of them to die young. We know why Brandon died young: because he went to KL to ask for Rhaegar's head, showing that he had a lot of wolf blood in him but we don't know yet what led Lyanna to her death or when did she show her wolf blood (except for the defence of Howland Reed during at Harrenhal, and she didn't die there). So, in my opinion, the R+L = J theory gives a good explanation for what Ned says: Lyanna went away with Rhaegar, showing her wolf blood, and that led her to her premature death.

[tynmahn]

Ok, in this monsterous thread, this may have already been addressed so forgive me if it has but I have a question:

Let's, for aurgument sake, say that Rhaegar was an "allright dude" and lyanna ran off with him and in a fit of passion they got hitched and did the things necessary to have a Jon Snow. The problem I have is, where was Rhaegar or Lyanna for that matter when the Stark boys were being strangled and roasted alive for the mad king Aries' pleasure.

It seems to me that they would have got word that the Starks were coming to King's Landing to call him out and he would have gone there with Lyanna to "straighten the whole mess out".

Instead, assuming Rheagar was a good guy and he and Lyanna were off on some sort of lovers picnic, they just kept frollocing away while the horrific events unfolded at King's Landing.

Then, after it all and John Aeron had to call his banners to protect Ned, it doesn't seem that Rheagar makes any attempt to explain the situation and bring a resolution....

I mean, given Aries was a psycho and probably wouldn't have listened, but niether Robert nor Ned ever give any indication that Rhaegar tried to explain what "Really" happened....

Just my thoughts

TynMahn

[Shewoman]

We don't know who knew where Rhaegar and Lyanna were. Someone did; Rhaegar knew to go to the Trident and someone told Ned where to find them. But I doubt if it were common knowledge. Whoever they trusted with the secret was someone who promised to keep it; perhaps that person didn't think the situation was dire enough to get Rhaegar there or perhaps this person didn't know about it in time. It's a good question, though.

[Red Redwyne]

Let's, for aurgument sake, say that Rhaegar was an "allright dude" and lyanna ran off with him and in a fit of passion they got hitched and did the things necessary to have a Jon Snow. The problem I have is, where was Rhaegar or Lyanna for that matter when the Stark boys were being strangled and roasted alive for the mad king Aries' pleasure.

I have theorized (in my head) for quite some time that Lyanna and Rhaegar's tryst at the TOJ was partially for love and partially a result of an attempt to fulfill the PtwP prophecy. We know from Dany's vision in the House of the Undying that Rhaegar was familiar with the prophecy and that he told Elia (? -- are we sure it was her) that "his will be the song of ice and fire". Maybe Rhaegar realized that Aegon was not the PtwP and reckoned that if he was Fire (Targ) then he needed some ice (Stark) to make the PtwP.

Of course, the dramatic and romantic way to frame the scene is that is that Rhaegar chases the KotLT, catches him/her/Lyanna, falls in love, THEN realizes that he must sire a child with this icy wolfwoman to fulfill the prophecy.

Since I think that Dany is the Prince(ss) that was Promised, I think Rhaegar blew it, but I do think Jon will play a pivotal role in the fulfillment of the prophecy.

[Dolorous Edd Targaryen]

I have theorized (in my head) for quite some time that Lyanna and Rhaegar's tryst at the TOJ was partially for love and partially a result of an attempt to fulfill the PtwP prophecy. We know from Dany's vision in the House of the Undying that Rhaegar was familiar with the prophecy and that he told Elia (? -- are we sure it was her) that "his will be the song of ice and fire". Maybe Rhaegar realized that Aegon was not the PtwP and reckoned that if he was Fire (Targ) then he needed some ice (Stark) to make the PtwP.

Of course, the dramatic and romantic way to frame the scene is that is that Rhaegar chases the KotLT, catches him/her/Lyanna, falls in love, THEN realizes that he must sire a child with this icy wolfwoman to fulfill the prophecy.

Since I think that Dany is the Prince(ss) that was Promised, I think Rhaegar blew it, but I do think Jon will play a pivotal role in the fulfillment of the prophecy.

I always thought the whole point of the "Dragon has Three Heads" quote was to point out that all those prophecies about "he who grasps the firey sword", "the Prince who was Promised", and "the one who wakes dragons from stone" were really about three different people. The idea that it just meant "three dragons need three riders" was only Jorah Mormonts take on it -- and he was kinda biased. I think Jon could be "Azor Ahai reborn" while Dany and some unkown third character could be fulfilling other parts of the prophecy.

I also wanted to add something that I think provides indirect evidence that Rhaegar and Lyanna were married, and that Lyanna gave birth to a Targaryen heir. In AGoT Ned has a flashback dream to when he and his knights fought the Kingsguard at the "Tower of Joy." When Ned asks the Kingsguard why they are there, instead of off protecting Rhaegar, Aerys, or Viserys and Rhaella, Gerold Hightower responds simply: "We swore an oath." There shouldn't be any oath the Kingsguard can swear that would override their two essential duties -- to protect the King, and obey him in all things. Since Rhaegar died before Aerys, he was never king (and even if he died later it was not by much, and he wouldn't have had time to send special orders to Hightower.) So, unless Aerys had ordered them to guard Lyanna for some reason, the only good explanation for their presence at that tower is the protection of a legitimate Targaryen heir. It seems to me that if Aerys even knew about Rhaegar and Lyanna he would have protected her at Kings Landing. This is sort of round-about and doesn't really amount to proof, but I thought it was worth mentioning.

[Gil-galad]

I always thought the whole point of the "Dragon has Three Heads" quote was to point out that all those prophecies about "he who grasps the firey sword", "the Prince who was Promised", and "the one who wakes dragons from stone" were really about three different people. The idea that it just meant "three dragons need three riders" was only Jorah Mormonts take on it -- and he was kinda biased. I think Jon could be "Azor Ahai reborn" while Dany and some unkown third character could be fulfilling other parts of the prophecy.

I also wanted to add something that I think provides indirect evidence that Rhaegar and Lyanna were married, and that Lyanna gave birth to a Targaryen heir. In AGoT Ned has a flashback dream to when he and his knights fought the Kingsguard at the "Tower of Joy." When Ned asks the Kingsguard why they are there, instead of off protecting Rhaegar, Aerys, or Viserys and Rhaella, Gerold Hightower responds simply: "We swore an oath." There shouldn't be any oath the Kingsguard can swear that would override their two essential duties -- to protect the King, and obey him in all things. Since Rhaegar died before Aerys, he was never king (and even if he died later it was not by much, and he wouldn't have had time to send special orders to Hightower.) So, unless Aerys had ordered them to guard Lyanna for some reason, the only good explanation for their presence at that tower is the protection of a legitimate Targaryen heir. It seems to me that if Aerys even knew about Rhaegar and Lyanna he would have protected her at Kings Landing. This is sort of round-about and doesn't really amount to proof, but I thought it was worth mentioning.

I'm in the camp of those who don't want Jon being a Targaryen. Being Ned son goes fine for me. The argument that the song of fire and ice is related of mixing fire blood (targ) and ice blood (stark) sounds to me to much like a bad anime (evoke the power of fire, water, wind and earth and what we get? Tadaa... Captain Planet), I prefer the idea that the song of ice and fire is the battle between the others (ice) and the living (fire) or something like that. So this reason for needing someone with Stark and Targ blood and this one being Jon doesn’t work for me.

The thing with the Kingsguard at the ToJ is in my opinion the main reason why there must be more going on than a simple bastard targ in the damming building.

By the way I think that the PwwP, Azor Ahai and the last hero are different persons.

[Shewoman]

The KG also have to follow orders (at least from sane adults).

[Nightstar]

I thought the three heads of the dragon derived from the original Targaryens- the Conqueror and his two sisters.

Then, Aerys and his abused queen had three children: Rhaegar, Viserys, and Dany.

If this pattern holds, perhaps Rhaegar also had three: the two murdered at King's Landing and Jon Snow?

I admit I want Jon to be the child of Rhaegar and Lyanna, mostly because I despise Ned and think he was a fool.

I also want Jon to inherit the Iron Throne, mostly because I can think of no fate worse than being stuck on that dreary wall for a lifetime.

However, if GRRM is true to the Lancaster/York history, then Jon will have to eventually wed Myrcella.

Just as Henry Tudor, who claimed the throne through his (bastard) royal blood, had to marry Elizabeth of York to cement his claim.

[Caliburn]

only one person really knows the whole truth and that is Howland Reed. He was the only other survivor at the Tower of Joy. Maybe the new POV in a ADWD, will be him. Anyway I hope R + L = R, is true, he's one of my favorite characters.

[Diva]

ok, so I don't keep repeating the same post all over the forum, please see my comments in N + A = J about the hero's journey monomyth and why I think that yes, Jon being the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna is indeed obvious to people who have studied the conventions of fantasy.

note: this thread is in the AFFC forum, but my post contains no spoilers for ASoIaF. It does contain what might be considered spoilers for some other fantasy books, but most of them have been out for quite a while now.

[Shewoman]

Caliburn, I'm pretty sure Martin has said we'll never get a Howland Reed POV.

Diva, the bastard child who nonetheless rises to power is also a convention of fantasy. Considering the amount of fantasy out there, most things are . . . . I figured it was R+L from the clues in the book, not from Campbell.

[Diva]

Diva, the bastard child who nonetheless rises to power is also a convention of fantasy. Considering the amount of fantasy out there, most things are . . . . I figured it was R+L from the clues in the book, not from Campbell.

Shewoman - I realise that. I don't know how many people here have read Campbell, probably not a lot as it is a bit dry. But very interesting if you want go into the structure of the heroic journey.

however, I was explaining why *I* was expecting Jon to be the bastard son of someone important because that is the convention. I would personally prefer that convention be broken by Martin as he has broken so many of the other conventions. that is why I said a few pages back that I thought it would be boring if Jon was the son of Lyanna and Rhaegar.

yes, there are a lot of clues in the book. I think they are laid on pretty heavily, but not everyone agrees. Perhaps I see it that way because all the info from Ned had to be crammed into one book, although I didn't realise that the first time I read it.

You see, I was falling for another convention - that the reluctant hero (Ned) who is noble, honourable and doesn't want to leave his family and home is the one who triumphs in the end. Until his execution i was seeing Ned as the hero, and his death shattered that. Therefore the first time I read it, my main thought about Ned was that his ambiguous thoughts re Jon were Martin trying to trick the readers in one direction, along the lines of conventional fantasy, but would go in another direction.

Sure, he never thinks of Jon as his son. but he never thinks of Jon as someone else's son either. Deliberate ambiguity.

He doesn't froth at the mouth at the mention of Rhaegar the way Robert does. but he doesn't think positively either, except that he would probably not frequent brothels. But then, why would he when he apparently thinks he take any woman he wants with impunity?

I think Rhaegar, as remembered by others, is a mass of contradictions. that doesn't make him Jon's father though. It also doesn't mean that he is not Jon's father. But I personally think it would be more interesting if he were Ned's son with some other woman, as is the general consensus from the characters, because that adds a layer of mystery to Ned which, honestly, he is pretty lacking. Jon's parentage is the *only* mystery concerning Ned, and if he isn't Ned's son then even that is taken away from him.

[Shewoman]

The other mystery associated with Ned is what promises Lyanna demanded of him that cost him so much to keep. He's disturbingly obsessed with his memories of her dying and those promises. I tend to think it's likely that these two mysteries (the other being Jon) are connected.

[一方通行]

(drumroll....)

jons parents are...

SPOILER: ADwD

you stupid fuckhead i don't know

[Caliburn]

Caliburn, I'm pretty sure Martin has said we'll never get a Howland Reed POV.

ah, i see

Well anyway he's really the only that would know what happens. But from the way Meera talks, her and Jojen might know as well.

[Shewoman]

Yes, but not of their own knowledge--only from what they've been told.

I think Wylla's going to set us straight someday.

[Diva]

part of the problem I have is why then, after 15 years of marriage, did Ned not tell Cat?

Sure, at the time Jon was born they barely knew each other and she had been about to marry his brother. I understand that. But they did grow close and had 5 children of their own.

Knowing that Cat wasn't particularly nice to Jon - I'm not saying she was outright hostile all the time, I understand it was *something* of an exception when Bran was in a coma - why not tell her if it was his sisters son?

It would have made Cat more relaxed about Jon, and perhaps less nasty. And I'm pretty sure she did have an ongoing campaign of nastiness because when Jon was challenged at the Wall about how welcoming Lady Stark was, Jon was not able to answer. Plus his resentment is not totally feigned when he goes to join the wildlings.

If Ned trusts Cat enough to leave her to run Winterfell and raise Robb and Rickon without him (that was the plan before Bran's fall), then I don't understand why he would not tell her that Jon was Lyanna's son. it isn't as if Cat would run around telling anyone - certainly not the Baratheons or the Lannisters.

Considering how difficult it made his own marriage and family situation, why why why why why???

[Grumpygoat]

part of the problem I have is why then, after 15 years of marriage, did Ned not tell Cat?

Sure, at the time Jon was born they barely knew each other and she had been about to marry his brother. I understand that. But they did grow close and had 5 children of their own.

And Cat only brought it up when they barely knew each other. She never brought it up again. Whereas it's in Eddard's nature to be introspective and not overly talkative. If Cat wanted to know the mother, it was going to have to come about through her asking again.

She didn't. And Ned's not the sort to just offer that sort of information up.

Hey may have told her if she asked five, ten, fourteen years later. But she didn't.

If Ned trusts Cat enough to leave her to run Winterfell and raise Robb and Rickon without him (that was the plan before Bran's fall), then I don't understand why he would not tell her that Jon was Lyanna's son. it isn't as if Cat would run around telling anyone - certainly not the Baratheons or the Lannisters.

As for that, by the time Ned can trust Cat...Cat also has an ingrained hate for Jon. This is the same Cat who, upon hearing that Robb meant to make Jon his heir, flipped out. Despite the fact that Arya was missing, she thought Rickon and Bran were dead, and Sansa was in Lannister hands.

I doubt she'd have sold him out to the Lannisters...but she may have her sister. Or Robert. Or someone. If only to make it painfully clear that Jon had absolutely no right to anything of Eddard's even more so.

And, again: she only ever asked once.