The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread

[A wilding]

Catelyn may have only asked about Jon's mother once, but Ned was seriously definite in his reply. He said something like "never ask me that again" in such a way as to frighten her, the only time he ever frightened her apparently. After that, he could scarcely expect her to ask again without prompting on his part.

[Grumpygoat]

Catelyn may have only asked about Jon's mother once, but Ned was seriously definite in his reply. He said something like "never ask me that again" in such a way as to frighten her, the only time he ever frightened her apparently. After that, he could scarcely expect her to ask again without prompting on his part.

And based on Ned's personality, the reader should hardly expect him to just cough up that information without being prompted to.

[laker]

Hello new to the bored but have been watching it for , well atleat a year. Please forgive me grammer but have a few things to say on this topic. One, havent seen a comment on this yet but why would members of the kingsquard be watching over the TOJ if it didnt have some connection to the Tagarian line(spelling). Mostly why would Sir Aurthur Dyne the best of the best basically waste time with the princes mere concubine. Mostly if not Jon, if he is just neds basterd, who is the third head of the dragon, assuming that there has already been seleceted the second(tyrion, or sir bartistan. Just a few thoughts and sorry for the messed up spelling and grammer.

[Ashara Stark]

part of the problem I have is why then, after 15 years of marriage, did Ned not tell Cat?

Apart from the reasons given by Mr. Manticore, with whom I agree, I think that Ned promised Lyanna to keep it secret (that being part of the "promise me" part Ned is always remembering).

Moreover, Ned thinks in one occasion "the lies we tell for love", so, I think that he was also referring to the lies he has told for love of Lyanna, and probably of Jon

[Shewoman]

As others have said on this thread repeatedly, it's just not in Ned to go back on his word--particularly when he gave it to someone he loves. His not telling Catelyn or Jon who Jon's mother is has nothing to do with his feelings for them. The fact that he's unhappily aware of the problem this causes within his family but still doesn't tell the truth--whether Jon's mother is Lyanna, Wylla, Ashara, or Laura Bush--shows the extent to which he thinks keeping his word is important.

The fact that he keeps his silence is all about his character and not about the secret itself. As such, it can't be used to argue against any prospective candidate for Jon's mother because it's not actually about her.

[anonymous user]

Hi I’ve lurked around this board off and on for a while (and when I say a while I mean several years) and I finally decided to actually become a member and join in the fun!

Anyway, when I first read a Game of Thrones a pieced together the R + L = J theory about midway through. Because of this I now tend to side with Diva’s argument that the story of a lowly baseborn child who actually has a very royal ancestry ends up saving the world from some ominous, “pure evil†threat while discovering the truth of his parentage is a little too obvious and a way too cliche. From what I’ve seen (and what I love) is that Martin takes traditional fantasy motifs and storylines and then tweaks them in a way that makes them shocking, original and still believable. So for Jon to end up learning about daddy’s little secret from Howland Reed then defeating the Others it simply an overused and somewhat hackneyed plot device, and to be completely honest I would be very disappointed if that’s how things turn out...

Now the question is how is Martin going to tweak this fantasy storyline??? Well if I said I had the answer I would be an idiot, but that does not stop me from theorizing!!! I personally do think that R + L = J (although I also think the Arys + Lyanna = Jon theory is quite compelling and very Martinesque) is the true story behind Jon’s origin and I think at some point, likely through Howland or one of the other Reeds, the reader will be enlightened to the truth behind Jon’s parentage. However, I don’t think Jon will ever know. I like to believe that Jon will die (be it at the end of the series fighting the Others or as an Old man advanced in years) as Lord Commander of the Night’s Watch believing he is the bastard son of Eddard Stark and some mystery woman. This satisfies both the copious amount of evidence suggesting the theory in the first place while still holding true to Martin’s style and avoiding cliche.

Anyway, that’s my two cents, take it for what its worth.

- Lannistark

[ogbebaba]

(drumroll....)

jons parents are...

SPOILER: ADwD

you stupid fuckhead i don't know

that was pritty funnie

[Krafus]

If Ned trusts Cat enough to leave her to run Winterfell and raise Robb and Rickon without him (that was the plan before Bran's fall), then I don't understand why he would not tell her that Jon was Lyanna's son. it isn't as if Cat would run around telling anyone - certainly not the Baratheons or the Lannisters.

Considering how difficult it made his own marriage and family situation, why why why why why???

Given Cat's animosity toward Jon, I wouldn't have taken her silence concerning Jon's true parentage for granted - and apparently neither did Ned. Yes, telling someone would likely have hurt her family - but she might have seen that risk as inferior to the threat Jon represented (in her mind) to her children. If R+L=J is true, then even if Jon isn't Ned's son, he still has Stark blood in him - and thus is still a threat.

[Diva]

Anyway, when I first read a Game of Thrones a pieced together the R + L = J theory about midway through. Because of this I now tend to side with Diva’s argument that the story of a lowly baseborn child who actually has a very royal ancestry ends up saving the world from some ominous, “pure evil†threat while discovering the truth of his parentage is a little too obvious and a way too cliche. From what I’ve seen (and what I love) is that Martin takes traditional fantasy motifs and storylines and then tweaks them in a way that makes them shocking, original and still believable. So for Jon to end up learning about daddy’s little secret from Howland Reed then defeating the Others it simply an overused and somewhat hackneyed plot device, and to be completely honest I would be very disappointed if that’s how things turn out...

welcome to such an informed and insightful new member

that was an excellent summary of what I have been saying. I'm glad I'm not completely on my lonesome with my delusions

[DrownedGoddess]

Whether Jon is Aerys's son or Rheagar's he is still ahead of Dany in the line of succession. She is female after all, and for her to be queen in her own right all her brothers and all her brother's children have to be dead.

Dany being female would only mean that she only could be queen after Jon if he was legitimate son of either Rhaegar or Aerys who both were married.

Jon may not be Eddard Stark's bastard- which I think quite unlikely, just given that chaeting on his wife is not like him at all since vhe has such firm principles, apart from all the ohter hints and evidence already pointed out - but even as a king's son he would still be a bastard with no rightful claims to the Iron Throne.

But then again-King Snow even sowns better than Lord Snow

[The Scabbard Of the Morning]

I don't see how Jon discovering who his parents on will have any impact on his ability to defeat the Others. So I don't how the plot can turn into a " Jon to end up learning about daddy’s little secret from Howland Reed then defeating the Others".

And further more, that argument that " it is simply an overused and somewhat hackneyed plot device, and to be completely honest I would be very disappointed if that’s how things turn out..." is not an argument at all. Whether you'd like it or not really has no bearing on whether it's true or not.

Frankly my position on this subject is that I think it's the theory that makes by far the most sense given everything we've been shown in the first 4 books. It explains everything and does not need to explain away any inconsistencies. Whereas all the other alternatives I've seen either does not explain certain actions, or needs to explain away some thing major, or needs to fabricate entire scenarios out of thin air none of which have been foreshadowed at all.

I'm fine with Jon being R+L, I'm also fine with him not being R+L, since Jon is Jon, and I like him as a character for who he is, not who his parent were. I just want the story to make sense, so if J is not R+L, then all the foreshadowing that GRRM has shown (such as "promise me", the blue rose on the ice wall image, etc, )better have a really good alternative explanation.

[一方通行]

G.R.R.M.'s style during the series so far seams to be to fallow a traditional fantasy plot then twist it. i suspect that R+L=J but that Jon will not do much to defeat the others. his part (according to my long drawnout theory that i will post someday) will end up to be helping Dany stablize the Relm and slow the Others till Bran can bring the smack down.

[DrownedGoddess]

In my opinion the unwritten laws not only of fantasy but of any fiction simply require an interesting revelation, there must be more to Jon's secret heritage. Even if the Martin does not follow clichés: this still isn't real life and

it wouldn't be much of a proof for Martin's gift of surprising his readers if he just didn't make up anything special concerning Jon. Storie love circles.

Furhtermore, these strange allusions in Eddard's last POV need some explanation.

And just given the title of the series- wouldn't it be fitting that the Stark and Targaryen bloodlines were joined at some point?

If so, it it not that important whether Jon knows about his parents- he'll be predestined to the task of defating the Others anyway- just given the fact that stories LOVE simbols.

Another point: Jon looks much like a Stark- more than Eddard's legitimate children.

So you can't tell anything by his outward appearance- this could support the of incest within the Stark family, making Jon the son of either Ned or Brandon.

Or this is simply a reason for the reapeated intermarriage of the Targaryen heirs with their own sisters-because the features of their noble bloodline would disappear within only one generation.

This is even likely, because the idea of more or less dominant genes already shows up when Ned discovers that Joffrey isn't really Robert's son, otherwise he would probably look like a Baratheon and not like a Lannister.

[Ashara Stark]

I don't see how Jon discovering who his parents on will have any impact on his ability to defeat the Others.

Having Targaryen blood will allow him to control dragons and it is likely that dragons' fire can melt the Others as foreshadowed in Dany's dream on the battle at the Trident

[The Wolf Maid]

Knowing that Cat wasn't particularly nice to Jon - I'm not saying she was outright hostile all the time, I understand it was *something* of an exception when Bran was in a coma - why not tell her if it was his sisters son?

Because some lies and secrets must be kept, even from those you love and trust the most.

As was previously mentioned in this board, Lyanna would have likely made Ned promise not to tell anyone. And Ned kept his word. Lyanna must have known by then that Rheagar and his family by Elia were dead, and she knew (or at least is aware) of the possible political reprecussions of Jon's existence. So she made Ned swear to protect and keep her son safe.

Another probable reason why he didn't tell Caitlin is because too many people know about the 'secret' already. And I don't think it wouldn't have made a difference (in Cat's treatment of Jon) if Ned told Caitlin. More likely, Caitlin would feel even more threatened about Jon (as a Targaryen).

And what is wrong about Martin using cliches? there is nothing wrong about using them, just don't go overboard, which I think Martin has no plans of doing.

I don't think it wouldn't matter much in the battle with the Others if Jon has Targaryen blood (though if he is one of the 'dragonriders', the Targ blood would help). Most likely it will be his Stark blood and upbringing that would help most. He has the blood of the First Men, and he is of the old gods.

[Lord of the Isle of Faces]

What if... Stop me if this has been said before...

What if Jon Snow is truly the child of Lyanna Stark and Rhaegar Targaryen and Ned DID lie for once in his honest life, you know.... before the whole incident at King's Landing? He lied that time to save lives but as we know that didn't work out so well. Though to even speculate more I would need to reread and do a time line thing if I had more info to go on.... I'm very unclear as to how Ned fell in love with someone whilst he was gone in so short a time and have a child..... children in asoiaf do take nine months to mature before being shoved into the world right? For some reason I'm thinking that maybe this child might not have been "his" in the first place though Jon does look so much like a Stark... ahh.... I could be on to something? Maybe? I think Ned was just protecting the infant child and never even told his bestfriend (Robert) in fear he'd have him killed... seeing how his sister was "supposed" to marry Robert and that Rhaegar was in love with her. Robert would have cheated on her a lot anyway. We all know Robert was a whore. Hey.... that would give Jon a chance at having the throne himself! Right? RIGHTFULLY! And I believe if Dany knew this she'd let it happen, she only wants the throne for herself because of duty and she is the last in line. I don't think she just wants it for any selfish reasons and seein's how she can't have any children... Who would be better than Jon?!?!?!? Fertile and a Targaryen. Mark my words, this could happen Chew on that

Also, I had a thought on Daenerys unsullied.... If they have no desire to start families or do much of anything else for obvious reasons after she wins her kingdom back then they can go to the wall and be true brothers of the Nights Watch... they will never want for wives or lovers.

Well it would seem interesting, but how could people not know if Lyanna was pregnant. And if she was, wouldn't it be by Robert? :| But i also think it could happen. I forgot how Lyanna got killed and all that, but what if King Aerys found out Rhaeger broke the family tradition, wedding and bedding family members, and then The Mad King ordered someone to kill Lyanna, but then Jon was born before she was killed. And besides, all the stuff about how Jon would of been the King is in the garbage now, since now he's a Sworn Brother of the Night's Watch. :cry:

[Jon Targaryen]

Well it would seem interesting, but how could people not know if Lyanna was pregnant. And if she was, wouldn't it be by Robert? :|

Lyanna was hidden away at the tower of joy. Few would know of a pregnancy. Robert didn't have a chance to impregnate Lyanna.

[RhaegarTargaryen]

Why do people fight R + J = L. Oh. Boredom. CMON adwd

[anonymous user]

I don't see how Jon discovering who his parents on will have any impact on his ability to defeat the Others. So I don't how the plot can turn into a " Jon to end up learning about daddy’s little secret from Howland Reed then defeating the Others".

And further more, that argument that " it is simply an overused and somewhat hackneyed plot device, and to be completely honest I would be very disappointed if that’s how things turn out..." is not an argument at all. Whether you'd like it or not really has no bearing on whether it's true or not.

Frankly my position on this subject is that I think it's the theory that makes by far the most sense given everything we've been shown in the first 4 books. It explains everything and does not need to explain away any inconsistencies. Whereas all the other alternatives I've seen either does not explain certain actions, or needs to explain away some thing major, or needs to fabricate entire scenarios out of thin air none of which have been foreshadowed at all.

I'm fine with Jon being R+L, I'm also fine with him not being R+L, since Jon is Jon, and I like him as a character for who he is, not who his parent were. I just want the story to make sense, so if J is not R+L, then all the foreshadowing that GRRM has shown (such as "promise me", the blue rose on the ice wall image, etc, )better have a really good alternative explanation.

Ummmm it'd be really cool if you actually read my post because if you had you would see that I DO in fact think that R + L = Jon is the story behind his parentage. I was simply stating my personal theory that Jon is the child of R + L but he will never find out.

And the fact that I would be disappointed if the scenario of Jon discovering his parentage then fighting off the Others isn't so much an argument as it is an opinion, I am aloud to have those right?

Also, I'm not saying that Jon discovering who his parents really are will have any baring on his battle with the Others, I'm just saying that it’s a fairly common plot device in fantasy for the hero to discover his true identity as some long lost king, or heir, or royal bastard, etc., THEN going out to defeat the big bad, not that his learning of his past will ENABLE him to do so.

- Lannistark

[The Wolf Maid]

I was simply stating my personal theory that Jon is the child of R + L but he will never find out.

I, too, wonder if Jon would really find out about his true parentage (if he is Rhaegar and Lyanna's son). Who would tell him, and why? What would be the point? I just don't see Howland Reed appearing and telling him point blank about his parentage. We readers might know (possibly through the Reed kids), but how will Jon?

Also, I'm not saying that Jon discovering who his parents really are will have any baring on his battle with the Others, I'm just saying that it’s a fairly common plot device in fantasy for the hero to discover his true identity as some long lost king, or heir, or royal bastard, etc., THEN going out to defeat the big bad, not that his learning of his past will ENABLE him to do so.

Yeah, it is a fairly common fantasy device, but Jon is already fighting (or should I say preparing to fight) with the Others. He already fought with one in the Lord Commander's Tower. Regardless of his parentage, he's still destined to fight Others as he's the Lord Commander of the Night's Watch.