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The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread


Stark Future

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There was someone else at ToJ. When Ned remembers Lyanna's death, he says he passed out and then "they" found him with her body. Howland Reed takes her hand from his (GoT, ppp. 43-4 US paperback).

I've always thought Wylla this other person at ToJ--we know she was a wetnurse and if Rhaegar wanted this child by Lyanna, he'd arrange for a wetnurse in case Lyanna (who hadn't had a child before) couldn't nurse (which seems to have been the case). If she was a Dayne servant all along, which isn't stated but is certainly possible since she's at Starfall in the series present, then she could have wound up there because of Ashara's desire to help Lyanna (because L is Ned's sister) as well as Rhaegar (because she's a Targ loyalist).

My take is that Ned, wanting to bring Dawn to Starfall out of respect for Arthur Dayne as well as whatever his relationship with Ashara actually was, travelled with Wylla and Jon (and probably Howland Reed). He didn't want to leave them there with everyone else dead; what would be the point? He leaves the sword there, Ashara reacts however she reacted, and he moves on.

If Jon was taken earlier, I think Wylla took him to Starfall. Which would mean that someone else found Ned with Lyanna's body.

There don't seem to be that many people who knew what went on. Rhaegar, Lyanna, and the KG are dead, and I doubt that they had anyone at ToJ who wasn't loyal to them. I don't find it hard to believe that the story hasn't come out. Wylla is permitting people (like Ned Dayne) to think she's Jon's mother; this is most likely a cover story to hide the truth.

And I don't know what the truth is. If they were married, I'm not sure we'd ever know. Even if a septon emerged to say he'd married them, given the stakes I think Dany supporters wouldn't believe it without serious proof, and I'm not sure what would be acceptable.

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And I don't know what the truth is. If they were married, I'm not sure we'd ever know. Even if a septon emerged to say he'd married them, given the stakes I think Dany supporters wouldn't believe it without serious proof, and I'm not sure what would be acceptable.

The beauty of the grand council is you don't actually have to prove your claim, you just have to make the best (agreed on) king. Jon's in a position where he may well stand out as a viable choice because he may be the only person proven to be able to lead against the Others. His ability to claim legitimacy only provides a way for him to justify rule to the Lords ,populace, Dany and himself (he may not only save the realm as its ruler but he joined the watch under false pretenses to begin with). Jon would never actually have to convince anyone, at least not more then Robert or Renly had to.

Jon ends up being a safe, skilled and fairly neutral possible choice for king among the high lords. If his bloodline (if discovered) proves to be a truly deciding factor at all it will because of Dany support and Jon's own misgivings. If this all these factors mix to end up making Jon king I don't know, But I suspect they are all placed so that Jon can be in charge as a regent or king for at least long enough to beat back the Night. More importently for Jon's character however any legitmacy or answers about his parentage would go a long way to ending his self doubt.

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I had hoped to prove that Lyanna and Rhaegar were meant for each other and he had waited for her. Well if Aegon is his and Elia's then he had a valid marriage. I still really want to believe that there union was legitimate and they did still marry. But if not, my opionion of Rhaegar is not as favorable.

Now I don't believe he abducted her against her will and raped her. I just think there was very little common sense. If he did not promise to marry her what was suppose to happen in the future? Would she be happy being the royal mistress with her children being bastards? She would never have the respect that Elia has - never be queen. Did she think of her family? I also wonder why she did not leave any kind of message for her family? It might have helped. Now I know she was 16 and was probably caught up in the romantic fantasy, (and did not want to marry Robert) but Rhaegar should have known the consequences!

Now lets look at the TOJ. It sounds like a great place to have a quiet, romantic relationship. But not the best place to have a baby. Now if Rhaegar arranged to have help for Lyanna when he left, I have a better opinion of him. There had to be several people there unless Willa was also skilled at being a midwife. Even so could she take care of the baby and Lyanna at the same time? If Lyanna was there all alone, what did Rhaegar say when he left? "I'm off to fight in a war. You handle everything here. I'll leave you a daggar so you can cut the cord." Now if he cared for Lyanna and the baby or even just the baby, that didn't happen.

In a previous post where I pondered if Lyanna and/or baby were prisoners at the TOJ; I did not mean by Rhaegar. My thoughts led me to think about the possibility of them being at Starfall. For all the time or part I don"t know. She would have had care there for herself and the baby though. I'd llike to think Rhaegar was doing his best for her. But when Rhaegar died...

I would love to have it proven they married and Jon is the legitimate king. There are so many loose ends and story lines and don't see them being resolved unless Jon can convince himself (and Stannis) to get off that wall!

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For instance Ent if you removed the idea of Lyanna's hate for Targaryens from the Starfall theory it becomes much clearer.

Are you sure you are replying to me? I have never said (nor thought) that Lyanna hated the Targaryens.

(What I do think is that she does not want Jon to be brought up as a king-in-exile. I think she loved Rhaegar, married him, and became pregnant with what she thought was their love-child. Only during the pregnancy did she understand that she was "just" part of Rhaegar's deluded breeding programme, just a mare who had the right traits to fulfill prophecy. She felt used and betrayed. Instead, she wanted her baby to just grow up and be happy. And alive. She didn't want him to have a future like what Viserys got: hunted, poor, always in mortal peril. And she didn't want him to save the world, either. She may have never believed that part anyway.)

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Only during the pregnancy did she understand that she was "just" part of Rhaegar's deluded breeding programme, just a mare who had the right traits to fulfill prophecy. She felt used and betrayed. Instead, she wanted her baby to just grow up and be happy. And alive. She didn't want him to have a future like what Viserys got: hunted, poor, always in mortal peril. And she didn't want him to save the world, either. She may have never believed that part anyway.)

I really like how you put this, Happy Ent. Awesome post. Even though Catelyn and Lyanna are two of the most different people in Martin's world, they probably share the thought that they'd rather their children be happy rather than exulted. Guys often think in legacies (Rhaegar, Mace Tyrell, Tywin). Women usually think of their children's emotional well being first and foremost.

Artanaro

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Before I read this thread, I was certain that J = R+L. But now, I just hopefully believe that's the case.

Though these points have already been made, I think they are worth consideration again:

- Ned won't tell Cat because Lyanna made him promise.

This makes perfect sense to me. In fact, out of everything I've read here or in the books, it makes the most perfect sense (if such a thing is possible). While we can argue over the symbolism in the direwolf pups, and many other sticking points, it's proven that Ned is one of the most honorable men in the series. If he were to promise his sister something as she was dying, I'm pretty sure that he would go to great lengths to keep it. Of course, this is assuming that she asked him to keep the secret of her child safe, which is a fairly big assumption on its own. I'm inclined to believe that was what he promised to do, but only Howland Reed really knows.

- Ghost came from somewhere else; he was not nursing with the other direwolves. Not to mention he's white.

It's fairly obvious that the mother direwolf represents Ned, not House Stark as a whole. This is an example of classic foreshadowing. Ned will go with Robert, the stag, and then he will die because of this. There's no question about that. But then it gets a little dicey... for instance, why isn't Ghost nursing, and why is he albino? To me, this points to the theory that Jon is not Ned's. Of course, the wind's out of the sails for this one when you notice that Jon and Arya look like Starks, while the rest look like their mother. I'm no expert on genetics, either in Westeros or in the real world, but this one has always given me pause.

- The Mystery of it All

There's too much mystery around the whole damned thing, if you ask me. The fact that Rhaegar obviously fancied Lyanna, the fact that the best 3 KG were there, the fact that Lyanna didn't scream out "HEY NED THE MFER RAPED ME!" instead of "Promise me, Ned," the fact that Ned refuses to tell either Robert or Catelyn, and so much more that I can't even remember at this hour of the night.

So basically, Howland Reed needs to tell us specifically what happened at the Tower of Joy if we are ever to find out anything.

I'm sure my ideas have plenty of holes in them, and I'd love to hear them. In any case, I have to start re-reading the books every time I look at this board! So here we go again...

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OK, I'm a new poster so bear with me, and forgive me if I look silly. I have read a good deal of all the L+R=J arguments, hints, theories, clues, counter-arguments and the like, and there's one point that sounds strange to me so far.

I still have a tiny bit of reading to do before finishing the series as it is, so this may be explained later, or I just forgot something early in the series.

As far as I can see, the R-L=J theory is interesting and seems to fit quite well; as far as I'm concerned, it's very plausible.

There's still one thing that puzzles me. The KG is sent to the tower to protect a potential heir to the throne. How come Selmy doesn't hint at Jon's real parents, or at the fact that Lyanna was pregnant? Targ loyalism could explain his silence. But there's Jaime, he was Kingsguard; should we assume he never knew what went on between Rhaegar and Lyanna, that he never noticed she was pregnant, that he hadn't any clue as to why his colleagues went South? Or has he his own reasons to keep quiet?

Last but not least, if I can point to an obvious hint - or red herring: Ghost is an albino direwolf, which means he displays the Targ features - close-to-white hair, purple-red eyes. (apologies if it's been widely reported before ;) )

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I don't know if Lyanna was at King's Landing during this period; Jaime may never have seen her. If the 3 KG were sent to guard Lyanna/baby and keep it a secret, then I doubt if anyone else knew where they were. If you're asking why Selmy didn't hint this to Dany--well, Dany and her understanding of entitlement to the throne might not take that too well.

Are Ghost's eyes ever described as purplish?

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There's still one thing that puzzles me. The KG is sent to the tower to protect a potential heir to the throne. How come Selmy doesn't hint at Jon's real parents, or at the fact that Lyanna was pregnant? Targ loyalism could explain his silence. But there's Jaime, he was Kingsguard; should we assume he never knew what went on between Rhaegar and Lyanna, that he never noticed she was pregnant, that he hadn't any clue as to why his colleagues went South? Or has he his own reasons to keep quiet?

I agree with Shewoman that it's possible the rest of the Kingsguard wouldn't necessarily know about Lyanna's pregnancy from seeing her around KL, but I do think Not another Stark has a point--wouldn't the Kingsguard that weren't at the TOJ still know where the other KG are and why? I guess the LC is at the TOJ, and he is probably one of the only ones who always knows where the others are. Since Jaime was so new at this point, I don't think he would be in on much, but I wouldn't be at all surprised if Selmy knows the truth along with Howland Reed.

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Ghost is an albino, described as having white fur and red eyes in the very first chapter of AGOT. Jon doesn't display Targaryen feature, his wolf does, which is clever. Or unintentional, depending on the truth or lunacy of this theory.

If Jaime was a new knight, he may have been kept out of the secret. Even moreso if he was Lannister, and the Targs couldn't be sure of Lannister's loyalty. Though I'm wondering if Selmy doesn't know more about that.

Last but not least, something I picked in the confrontation between Cersei and Ned. Cersei accuses Ned of not knowing honor for having a bastard of his own and concludes: "Tell, my honorable Lord Eddard, how are you any different from Robet, or me, or Jaime?" "For a start, I do not kill children". This takes a different and deeper meaning if Jon is indeed his nephew, and Rhaegar the father.

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- Ghost came from somewhere else; he was not nursing with the other direwolves. Not to mention he's white.

It's fairly obvious that the mother direwolf represents Ned, not House Stark as a whole. This is an example of classic foreshadowing. Ned will go with Robert, the stag, and then he will die because of this. There's no question about that. But then it gets a little dicey... for instance, why isn't Ghost nursing, and why is he albino? To me, this points to the theory that Jon is not Ned's. Of course, the wind's out of the sails for this one when you notice that Jon and Arya look like Starks, while the rest look like their mother. I'm no expert on genetics, either in Westeros or in the real world, but this one has always given me pause.

None of the direwolves were nursing, they were all like just or very recently born. As for Ghost, he was part of the litter, he didn't come from somewhere else. That's why they point out that he must have moved himself away from the others or that he had been driven away by the others because he is different. He doesn't make a sound and he was the first to have his eyes open which was odd or atleast Bran thought so. He is different that's why he is part of the pack but yet not part of them like Summer said in that chapter where Bran was warged with him.

If the direwolf represented House Stark it would make more sense because that way Jon would get his direwolf and still be a Stark through his mother Lyanna if R+L=J. The whole being killed by the stag, that also relates to a lot more than just Ned. You can say Lady, Robb, and Greywind were all killed by the stag too because it all started with Ned going south.

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My theory has always been that Ashara knew where Lyanna was hidden (TOJ), and Ned got the information from her.

Because it was always a puzzle for me how Ned knew where she was, because it couldn't have been public knowledge, and further more, the 6 guys that Ned took with him to the TOJ were all Ned's most trusted men all with very strong Stark loyalties. Brandon's squire, a Cassel, etc. Surely Ned could have taken a much large group with him, and could have won easily, instead going 7 against 3 great KG where his odds of success was maybe 50/50. Why didn't he take more men. Because it was a secret mission, and Ned couldn't afford to bring anyone with him that he could personally trust to not divulge whatever they discovered at the TOJ.

So if Lyanna and the KG being at TOJ was such a secret. Then how did Ned find out? He had no connections to Targ loyalists, and if they were Loyalists they certainly wouldn't tell him. Except for Ashara.

My theory is that he pled with Ashara to tell him and she gave in because of their former relationship, and Ashara's suicide was a combination of both losing the man she loved and her guilt over (for the lack of a better word) betraying her brother.

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I've been wondering about Ned's often repeated words about not killing children, especially in his conversation with Robert where he claims that putting a stop to the killing of children was the reason for rebelling against Aerys (though Robert responds that they did it to get rid of all Targaryens).

This view of Ned's along with the fact that Lyanna was at the ToJ rather than KL or Dragonstone has started me thinking that maybe her wherabouts were not just kept secret from the rebells but also from Aerys himself. It's been stated that he was paranoid and possibly he saw Lyanna's (assumed) pregnancy by his son and heir as an attempt by the Starks to reach for the throne. A view that he would feel was proven right if Rickard refused to accept that the child (and possibly Lyanna as well) should be killed. This would also explain why he decided to have Lord Rickard and Brandon killed.

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I didn't bother to read through the entire post, so forgive me
You're forgiven for being new to the R+L=J debate, but really, skipping information right under your nose before commenting on this very info, now, that's unforgivable! Now please crawl in a corner and die of shame.

in the House of the Undying doesn't Dany see a blue rose at the wall? For some reason I recall Lyana being fond of blue roses.
Yes, it is a cornerstone of the R+L=J theory. Blue roses are ever present whenever anyone remembers Lyanna, and actually there are only 2 occurences where the flowers are mentionned without reference to Lyanna, if I recall correctly. Furthermore, the implications are manyfold, as the blue rose imagery links Lyanna to Rhaegar, both because of the Harrendal crown and story of Bael, and as the vision of the rose in a wall of ice happened in the "bride of fire" triplet of Daenerys prophecies, seemingly indicating that Jon would be her lover, closing the circle of Targaryens incestuous marriages.
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I love this debate. Even after five years of reading the same info it never gets dull.

Glad to see more of the newer people contributing and getting involved. It doesn't matter if its been covered before or not, its good to get a new perspective from a new member. Maybe someone will eventually discover something we have yet to find...

BH

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There are a couple of questions.

For one thing, how quickly was Lyanna taken to the ToJ? It's possible that if she was sent there early on, then nobody other than possibly a maidservant (Wylla) or the Kingsguard sent would know that she actually is pregnant with Rhaegar's child. Ashara could know that Lyanna is up in the ToJ, but not necessarily that a pregnant Lyanna is up there.

As for the Lyanna-child being sent with Ashara, my main issue with it is that it seems to simply pop out of nowhere, when for many other important things there's frequently a good deal of foreshadowing.

Also, I don't know if this has already been mentioned, but Targaryens with a non-Targaryen mother have been known in the ASoIaF universe to not have the complete Targaryen look. Prince Baelor from THK had black hair (I think his mother was dornish or something like that).

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Okay, I'm a moron. It took me forever to realize that if Edric Dayne is 12, he obviously couldn't be Jon Snow's milk brother, unless milk brothers can be separated by years of difference in time of breastfeeding.

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Furthermore, the implications are manyfold, as the blue rose imagery links Lyanna to Rhaegar, both because of the Harrendal crown and story of Bael,

This is just twisting facts. Ygritte has no knowledge of Lyanna or Rhaegar. To say Lyanna is the only one who is connected to blue roses, and that Bael's case supports this because it parallels Lyanna, is total bs. Can't anyone here look at stuff without their R+L=J blinders on?

Artanaro

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