Jump to content

The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread


Stark Future

Recommended Posts

After reading through all 23 odd pages of this thread the L+R=J theory has become clear as mud to me. (All members should be obliged to attempt a read through of this thread at least once.)

I dread GRRM will kill off Howland Reed to keep this theory and the speculation going. Jon's parentage can then be hinted at with snippets if misinformation. He may even be able to involve Jon in the major events of the Song without confirming who his parents were (or are). What an achievement that would be.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

After reading through all 23 odd pages of this thread the L+R=J theory has become clear as mud to me. (All members should be obliged to attempt a read through of this thread at least once.)

Remember, this thread is about R+L=J. It's not necessarily the critical analysis of that theory.

If you want to be informed, check out these links :D .

Jon is the child of Eddard Stark and Ashara Dayne

Tary Loyalist's Thread

I would point out why so much of this thread is blatantly wrong and illogical, but it does get tedious, having to argue one against ten over and over again, especially when so manypeople don't understand reason.

Artanaro

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This is just twisting facts. Ygritte has no knowledge of Lyanna or Rhaegar. To say Lyanna is the only one who is connected to blue roses, and that Bael's case supports this because it parallels Lyanna, is total bs. Can't anyone here look at stuff without their R+L=J blinders on?

Artanaro

You keep saying this, Artanaro, but you never seem to provide any counter-evidence that Blue Roses refer to anyone other than Lyanna. Outside of the Bael the Bard story, blue roses are always connected specifically in remembrances/visions/dreams of Lyanna Stark, particularly those by Ned. Name one instance when they were connected with the Starks in general rather than specifically with Lyanna, other than the Bael the Bard which, despite your denials, does parallel Lyanna's story in a number of ways (such as a daughter of Winterfell being kidnapped by a King, said daughter being tied to blue roses).

And no one is claiming that Ygritte knew about Lyanna or Rhaegar. The point is just that the story seems to have some resemblances to the story of Lyanna Stark.

Mind you, the evidence for Rhaegar-Lyanna is indirect. However, it just seems likely with what we know so far. If evidence shows up in the next book that either Wylla or Ashara joined Ned at some time near the beginning of the War of the Usurper (so that Jon could conceivably be conceived on either by Ned), then I'll be the first to admit that it would strike a serious blow against the Rhaegar-Lyanna theory, although we would still be left with the problems of explaining most of the other points brought up, such as the "blue rose on the wall" image, the guilty Ned's costly promise and reminiscances of Lyanna, what killed Lyanna, and so forth.

However, until then, I would like to point out that Jon would have to have been conceived before the battle between the Loyalists and the Pro-Baratheons would be effectively over (i.e., after the death of Rhaegar on the Trident, and the fall of KL and death of Aerys III). It strikes me as odd that while Ned is presumably getting north after leaving the Vale in order to raise his own banners to march south and making sure his own House is order, that Ashara and/or one of her servants would somehow be able to get into his camp and get intimate enough to conceive a child, then get back to their homeland across loyalist territory, all without drawing the attention of either his bannermen or loyalist forces who would be wondering why a highborn woman belonging to a loyalist house is conferring with a rebellious lord in private.

Another thing, and this is about the Tower of Joy. Is it ever stated that it's location was a secret? And if so, then how much of a secret? Would Varys, perhaps, have known the location, and told it to Ned or Robert in order to ingratiate himself with his new bosses? How would Ned have known that the Tower of Joy was in Dorne in the first place, if it was a secret?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

However, until then, I would like to point out that Jon would have to have been conceived before the battle between the Loyalists and the Pro-Baratheons would be effectively over (i.e., after the death of Rhaegar on the Trident, and the fall of KL and death of Aerys III). It strikes me as odd that while Ned is presumably getting north after leaving the Vale in order to raise his own banners to march south and making sure his own House is order, that Ashara and/or one of her servants would somehow be able to get into his camp and get intimate enough to conceive a child, then get back to their homeland across loyalist territory, all without drawing the attention of either his bannermen or loyalist forces who would be wondering why a highborn woman belonging to a loyalist house is conferring with a rebellious lord in private.

Good point. At least for Ashara. It doesn't say as much about Wylla, few people would be likely to recognize her, but on the other hand, she wouldn't be able to bring any kind of protection and we have seen first hand what happens to people unable to defend themselves when war is under way.

Another thing, and this is about the Tower of Joy. Is it ever stated that it's location was a secret? And if so, then how much of a secret? Would Varys, perhaps, have known the location, and told it to Ned or Robert in order to ingratiate himself with his new bosses? How would Ned have known that the Tower of Joy was in Dorne in the first place, if it was a secret?

I don't think the ToJ itself was a secret really. But the fact that Lyanna was there was most likely a tightly kept secret.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This is just twisting facts. Ygritte has no knowledge of Lyanna or Rhaegar. To say Lyanna is the only one who is connected to blue roses, and that Bael's case supports this because it parallels Lyanna, is total bs. Can't anyone here look at stuff without their R+L=J blinders on?

Can't you look at facts without your R+L denial binders? Lyanna is the only one strongly identified with blue roses within the story. I don't mean to say that the existence of blue rose is tied to that of Lyanna, but that the way GRRM told the story, each time someone mentionned Lyanna, there was also mention of blue roses, and each time someone spoke of blue roses, it was in direct connection with Lyanna except for the Bael story. These are facts, you can verify.

Now I said it was relevant to Rhaegar because the Bael story deals with the abduction of the rose of winterfell, can you contest that it is a strong parallel for the abduction of Lyanna?

Also, don't you realise it is total BS from you to argue that a character has to know the full global implications of anything he says for it to be relevant, to hold a deeper meaning? Next you will argue that when Arya thinks "The girl did have hair like the old king’s, Arya thought; a great thick mop of it, as black as coal. That doesn’t mean anything, though. Gendry has the same kind of hair too. Lots of people have black hair.", it's not connected to Robert because Arya doesn't know the irony of that thought.

Ok, this being said, while I did this search for "rose" in the text, I noticed that the house of the undyings' vision spoke of a blue flower, not a blue rose especially. To assume that this flower is indeed a rose is already a first level of inference. It can even be argued that like most people, Dany should be able to recognize a rose on sight, and not naming the type of flower can be interpreted as the flower itself being an less famous type.

This reminds me, in Theon's vision, the slim, sad girl with a crown of blue roses had her gown splattered with gore. Now, I admit I don't know much about midwifery, but I find it odd that birth could splatter the front of a dress, above the waist. This strikes me more as blood recieved from another adult bleeding on you.

The bed of blood thing can also be interpreted this way, after all a wound can get you fevered like Lyanna was, and she was clutching withered roses, not a baby, which is odd in itself.

Lastly, while couldn't Jon have been conceived before the Lyanna abduction, in the case of A+N? Noone is certain of his real age, and Ned had ample time to first learn of Lyanna's abduction, leave ashara, hear of Brandon, reach the Eyrie/Winterfell, watch his father go to king's landing, and raise his banners before civil war began, or inversely, Ashara had ample time to go back to Starfall.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guardsman Bass, my understanding is that a "milk brother" is someone who was nursed by the same woman you were. The two "nursings" could take place years apart. It doesn't mean that you're any blood kin.

Errant Bard, Martin has said that Jon is about 9 months older than Dany, who was conceived around the time that King's Landing fell. That would put his birth around the time of her conception--the end of the war. Robert's Rebellion lasted for about a year, so Jon couldn't have been conceived before it started.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Errant Bard, Martin has said that Jon is about 9 months older than Dany, who was conceived around the time that King's Landing fell. That would put his birth around the time of her conception--the end of the war. Robert's Rebellion lasted for about a year, so Jon couldn't have been conceived before it started.

Did he say that in SSM? Did he say that was the truth, or what the characters believed was true?

Anyway, I should reread to get the timeline right, but how can it be possible for Rhaella to take 9 months to go from King's landing to Dragonstone? Dany was born there, but I can't imagine Robert not chasing the last Targaryen, and letting them dwell nearly one year undisturbed in one of the Baratheon castles. Wouldn't that mean that Dany was conceived months before King's landing's fall?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Dragonstone was the original seat of the Targaryens. It became Baratheon once Stannis conquered it.

He actually had to build a fleet to do it since most of the royal fleet actually fled to Dragonstone once King's Landing was lost. That's why it took a long time. I should check to see if Dragonstone falls after the Tower of Joy showdown, or before.

As for Daenerys, I remember some dateline that said she was conceived basically at the time of the Battle of the Trident. Forgot if there was any solid clue in the book that linked both or if it's deduced from other hints.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Did he say that in SSM? Did he say that was the truth, or what the characters believed was true?

Anyway, I should reread to get the timeline right, but how can it be possible for Rhaella to take 9 months to go from King's landing to Dragonstone? Dany was born there, but I can't imagine Robert not chasing the last Targaryen, and letting them dwell nearly one year undisturbed in one of the Baratheon castles. Wouldn't that mean that Dany was conceived months before King's landing's fall?

In AGoT, there actually is a significant time period between when Rhaella leaves for Dragonstone, and when Stannis finally arrives, at least according to Daenerys. Remember that the text describes the Targaryen fleet being smashed in the storm that accompanied Dany's birth. It's highly possible that the said fleet made Stannis's invasion next to impossible up until that point.

This reminds me, in Theon's vision, the slim, sad girl with a crown of blue roses had her gown splattered with gore. Now, I admit I don't know much about midwifery, but I find it odd that birth could splatter the front of a dress, above the waist. This strikes me more as blood recieved from another adult bleeding on you.

The bed of blood thing can also be interpreted this way, after all a wound can get you fevered like Lyanna was, and she was clutching withered roses, not a baby, which is odd in itself.

I did notice that, and of course, it is another question to hopefully await further details about the ToJ incident. There are a couple of possibilities, though

1. Like you said, it's possible that someone mortally wounded Lyanna. This , of course, leaves the question of who, and particularly, who would get the opportunity while she's being guarded by the best of the Kingsguard.

2. Somebody else was killed in her vicinity. This could even be one of the Kingsguard; it's never said that they all stayed outside to finish their battle.

As for the "bed of blood", the reason it is frequently interpreted as a sign of childbirth is because Martin uses the same phrase in another tie to childbirth, where Mimi Murr Durz (or however the hell her name is written) refers to the arts of childbirth as "the ways of the bloody bed" or something like that.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Theon's vision of the event is based on 2nd-hand knowledge, speculation and his interpretation of what he has heard. He was not there.

He wasn't at the Red Wedding either, actually the Red Wedding had not even happened when he saw Robb and Greywind enter the room.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I agree with this theory, but don't see what I could really add that hasn't been said before. There are only two living people who might know the truth of the matter. Howland Reed, and Wyonna, or whatever her name was, Jon's supposed "mother" and the milkmother of Ned Dayne. She probably won't know who Jon's true mother is, but she would know that it was not her and that Eddard asked her to say it was her, for whatever reason.

Jojan and Meera may have been told by their father. It seems they are both quite capable of keeping secrets. I think the story of the Knight of the Laughing Tree and Jojen's continual asking, "Your father never told you this story?" was a way of testing whether they were allowed to share their knowledge of those events with Bran. If he knew the truth as well, then there would be no reason to hide it from him.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Errant Bard, Martin said in an SSM, I believe (or possibly an interview) as fact and not as what people believe that Jon is about 9 months older than Dany.

Why should it have taken 9 months for Rhaella to get to Dragonstone? It's possible that Robert was looking for her and didn't know where she was. In Feast we're told--somewhere--that Aerys had brutal sex with Rhaella shortly before he was killed by Jaime. This would seem to be when Dany was conceived.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

He wasn't at the Red Wedding either, actually the Red Wedding had not even happened when he saw Robb and Greywind enter the room.

Yes, he has an accurate vision of Robb's death, but the when, where and by who are missing. They also have both there heads! So some aspects of his vision are correct, but he does not have all the details.

He sees Lyanna with her crown of blue roses and her white gown spattered with gore. You infer that there could not be that much blood from childbirth to get above the waist, so there was a mortal wound. Well, as a mother of two (both natural births) there is a lot of blood! The baby does not pop out all clean and wrapped in a blanket! If the baby was laid across her chest as the cord was cut, if she asked to hold the baby - see it - blood from the baby, the midwife (maester?) was everywhere. We're not talking 20th century medicine here.

Now there is a possibility she met with fowl play. We don't know yet, but that's a good point. And the fun part of these books is trying to figure out the visions and come up with theories. But Theons's vision does not prove/disprove that she had a baby, just that she died in a gown spattered with gore. :(

Link to comment
Share on other sites

But Theons's vision does not prove/disprove that she had a baby, just that she died in a gown spattered with gore.

I didn't mean it proved anything, sorry if it wasn't clear. That's just another peeble to add to the stack of ambiguous hints around, another tidbit that can be interpreted in other ways than R+L, as I've shown.

As an aside, Greywind and Robb still have their head because they got beheaded only after they got killed. ;)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Perhaps Lyanna felt that her Baby could not be delivered the natural way and ordered the Kingsguard to cut her belly open in order to save the child. This would make sense if Rhaegar told her about the baby's importance (which one can assume if R+L=J and Jon=PWWP).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Perhaps Lyanna felt that her Baby could not be delivered the natural way and ordered the Kingsguard to cut her belly open in order to save the child. This would make sense if Rhaegar told her about the baby's importance (which one can assume if R+L=J and Jon=PWWP).

W'oh. I've actually never thought about that possibility before. We've heard that she was a 'child-woman' of sixteen, so it's easily possible that childbirth would go hard on her. It would tie into the Theon Vision, and, in a rather gruesome way, tie into the "Dragon has three heads" vision, if you believe that Tyrion, Dany, and Jon are the three heads. The three of them would have had the distinction of each killing their mother in childbirth.

On the other hand, the only possible evidence we have to draw inference on something like that is from the Theon vision, and all we've got from that is Theon describing Lyanna's dress stained with gore. Not to mention that that would make Ned's timing even more important, since Lyanna would bleed to death quickly after the crude Caesarian section was done.

On the other hand :P , Ned's timing in arriving at the Tower of Joy may have been one of those instances in the story where the gods - whether the Seven or the Old Gods- might have subtly been at work. Sort of like Davos getting rescued by a Stannis-favored ship.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

What if Ned was the one who had to cut open Lyanna's belly? All the kingsguard are dead, Ned enters the tower and finds Lyanna in childbed, unable to deliver her child (e.g. because it has turned within the womb). I mean if he faced the choice of letting mother and child die or saving the latter, Ned could have been capable of this. This would give "Promise me, Ned" a totally new meaning...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
×
×
  • Create New...