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The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread


Stark Future

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I'm one of those people that came up with this R+L=J theory myself while reading the books. This doesn't mean that it's true, only that GRRM has made it possible to be true if he wants it to be later down the line, he obviously put the clues there to find if you will, but some foreshadowing is put there just to keep you guessing. My mind likes to pick out the clues and jump ahead to conclusions, but I'm not always right, and that's why GRRM's such a good writer because you can't always guess what he's going to do.

Now, although I haven't read the complete analysis (Sorry Errant I will die of shame in a corner at my earliest convenience) this doesn't appear to have been mentioned, but one of the things that lent weight to the theory in my mind is the manner in which Jon is treated by Maester Aemon. It speaks volumes that this wise old Targaryen knows something of Jon's lineage.

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Sorry Errant I will die of shame in a corner at my earliest convenience
Damn, and I had this corner ready for use, too.

one of the things that lent weight to the theory in my mind is the manner in which Jon is treated by Maester Aemon. It speaks volumes that this wise old Targaryen knows something of Jon's lineage.
So assuming the theory is true, you think that someone told him. Who would that be, and why?

Now, if you think about it, Jon is the nephew of their first ranger, and a Stark to boot, one of the few with the blood of the first men in their veins. As I read, I distinctly got the impression that being a Stark was more important than being a targaryen, on the wall. He is Mormont's ward also, that counts for something... He's already high ranked.

Aside from that, Aemon got the same respect for Sam.

And to top it off, we know from AFFC that Aemon thinks of himself as the last of the Targargaryen, and that's why he wanted to join Dany, be a head of the dragon.

Edit: Oh yeah forgot about that, but Aemon has kind recollection of some Targaryens, but certainly doesn't show fondness toward all of them. It would be stretch to think he would judge someone on his bloodline rather than on his personality.

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I personally doubt that Aemon knew (assuming the theory is true) that Jon was a half-targaryen, unless he's been having supernatural visions that we haven't heard about.

Has anyone ever asked GRRM if it is possible to figure out Jon's parentage from the books currently out?

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Well if you believe that Ned actually sent off the letter and Joer was reading that very letter when he had the conversation about Kings with Jon, then Joer would have told Aemon.

"Your right, besides there are too many Kings in this realm already"

He gave Jon a piercing look.

"King King King King" repeated the crow, while looking at Jon.

Those are DEFINATLEY not the exact text but its the gyst of what happened.

And I doubt GRRM would answer that.

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I've been wondering about Ned's often repeated words about not killing children, especially in his conversation with Robert where he claims that putting a stop to the killing of children was the reason for rebelling against Aerys (though Robert responds that they did it to get rid of all Targaryens).

This view of Ned's along with the fact that Lyanna was at the ToJ rather than KL or Dragonstone has started me thinking that maybe her wherabouts were not just kept secret from the rebells but also from Aerys himself. It's been stated that he was paranoid and possibly he saw Lyanna's (assumed) pregnancy by his son and heir as an attempt by the Starks to reach for the throne. A view that he would feel was proven right if Rickard refused to accept that the child (and possibly Lyanna as well) should be killed. This would also explain why he decided to have Lord Rickard and Brandon killed.

That's a good point, Stratonice! :) I hadn't thought about Ned's words before, but it makes a lot of sense that he is thinking of Jon as the child in danger because of Aerys madness.

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I have a few questions.

Ned says "...a lie I have lived for the last 14 years..."

remembers "... promise me, Ned, promise me.."

wants "..to talk to Jon one last time.... to tell the boy.."

is in the crypts and needs to ".. talk to Jon.."

Lyanna dying in a bed of "... blood and roses..."

the building being called the "...Tower of Joy.."

being guarded by "... three of the Finest Knights in all of Westeros..." and the "... best swords man I have ever met..."

Danys vision of her third husband ".. a blue rose, sprouting from a crack in an ice wall..."

Rhaegar saying "... the dragon has three heads, there must be one more..."

and lastly....

Rhaegar and Lyannas love affair, for I doubt any of us still believe Rhaegar to be a crazy baffoon like his father.

He planned to remove his father from rule, lead people into battle, highly intelligent..... he must have thought it through.....

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That's a good point, Stratonice! :) I hadn't thought about Ned's words before, but it makes a lot of sense that he is thinking of Jon as the child in danger because of Aerys madness.

Thank you! :)

After thinking it through a bit more though, I'm not sure if that would fit with the timeline. But on the other hand, I can't think of any other children being in danger or killed that would fit with the reasons for the Rebellion.

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To be fair, RhaegarTargaryen, it wasn't specifically stated that the "blue flower on the wall" would be her third husband.

And to be fair, technically it was a blue flower (although it seems exceedingly likely that the flower is a blue rose, Dany simply never having seen one before), not a blue rose.

Calling it a 'blue rose' would have been too obvious, come to think of it.

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The most convincing argument made in favor of this theory is, in my opinion, that Lyanna Stark's dying words were "promise me Ned, promise me."

What did Ned Stark have to promise?

Surely not to bring her bones back to Winterfell to rest in the crypt with the rest of the hard-faced Starks? That is too easy, too simple, altogether too obvious. Of course Ned would bring her remains back to Winterfell. For all we know, her tomb was already being prepared, just like Ned's, as well as Brandon's and old Rickon's. The logic in it is too great for her last words to have had left such a profound impression on Ned's mind, words that he still remembered vividly and still associated with strong emotions almost two decades onwards.

What then? Considering the important role Lyanna's last words took in the narrative of Eddard as a POV character, I really don't think that it would've been something trivial ("promise me, Ned... put on a fresh pair of underwear tomorrow"... :D).

No. It must've been something important. Something so important that Lyanna Stark used her dying breath to make young Ned promise something, promise something that still affected him deeply and perhaps also made him uneasy. A promise that went to the very core of Eddard Stark's sense of honor.

What could that have been, other than to safeguard Jon Snow, who has been certified by Edric Dayne to have been in the Dornish Marches in his very early years (when he was still at the breast -- 0-1 years)? It does not yet prove conclusively that Jon Snow is the child of Lyanna (and who else to father him in the Dornish Marches but Rhaegar Targaryen? More on that later), but it makes it quite acceptable that in some way Lyanna Stark was attached to the boy, and found him important enough to die with his name on her lips, to force Ned Stark into a lifelong commitment concerning him just before she left for her old gods.

Which brings me to my next argument for this theory. This puts a sword in the Wylla theory of anti-theorists.

Why were there three -- three -- members of the Kingsguard, not to mention its greatest warrior and its Lord Commander, present defending the Tower of Joy when Eddard Stark came there with his best men?

To answer that we must discover who the Kingsguard serve. Who do they serve? The king and his family, until death follows. They were far, very far away from Aerys II -- the White Bull admitted as much -- and his struggles. The same goes for Rhaegar and the Trident. Yet the only one who could ever have been in the area of the Tower of Joy to tell them to stay and guard the place was the heir apparent.

Why in God's name would Rhaegar have put his best men a thousand miles from where they should've been? The answer: to guard Lyanna Stark, and whatever Rhaegar had done to her -- or with her. There was something sufficiently important in the Tower of Joy to warrant three Kingsguard to defend it. Do you honestly think that Rhaegar would've wasted his three greatest warriors on some chick he abused and left to die if he hadn't done something greater with her? Rhaegar's own blood would've been important enough to defend. Rhaegar's mistress ...? May be, but I doubt it.

The two, in combination with each other, point convincingly in the direction of the veracity of this theory. Yes, it's still a long shot -- but hey, we're all dealing with the scraps that GRRM left us to mull over, be we pro- or opponents.

There are still some inconsequent elements, however.

For instance: why does Jon Snow look like a Stark, a true Stark, just like Eddard and not like Robb and his siblings, when he is supposedly the product of both the Stark bloodline -- strong and ancient, true -- but also the Targaryen one? Is not the Valyrian ancestry of the Targaryens famous for producing extraordinary facial traits, such as silver-golden hair and eyes of strange colors? When Robb, Sansa, Arya and Rickon look like Tullys, how likely is it that Lyanna's blood overpowers Rhaegar's?

Ah, well... lots to mull over. At the end of the day we all gotta say one thing: GRRM knows how to keep his faithful busy while he sits down and writes on. :mellow:

On another note... my first post. Yeah. Yo.

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Here are some simple clues. But perhaps this is cheating.... (warning there may be spoilers here if you havent read all 4 books.)

On my paperback of AGOT one person appears alone on the cover. Jon Snow. It is a safe bet that when all the players have finished their "game of thrones" Jon will be on top. Simple foreshadowing. Also we know that "the song of ice and fire" most probably refers the joining of Targaryen and Stark bloodlines. Are there any other candidates other than Rhaegar and Lyanna?

As an R+L=J fan. I fully expect that Jon and Daenarys will be saddling up them dragons. I'm not so sure that they will consummate their marriage though. After all, Jon has been raised according to northman mores. If he learns his true parentage, then he will know that Daenarys is his half-sister, and ...ew.

With two heads of the dragon pretty solidly nailed down, my mind naturally turns to number three. Who can it be? Crackpot threory time. Let me propose...Tyrion Lannister!

Why Tyrion? Because he is actually the product of Mad King Aerys rape of Tywin's wife. Aerys hated nearly everybody around him, most especially those who were competent, as these were the greatest threat to his rule. And Tywin was certainly competent. Tyrions deformities are a red herring, so we don't stop to think about the fact that he doesnt resemble his brother and sister in the slightest. We do know that Tywin has said Tyrion would never inherit Casterly Rock. Could this be because Tywin had doubts about Tyrions parentage? Might this also help explain Tywins constant tormenting of Tyrion? Normally fathers grow to love their children, even if their wives die in childbirth. This is how we are wired by evolution, it is a survival trait. But Tywin never exhibits normal human love for his youngest child.

When Tyrion meets Jon Snow, he talks to him about "dragon dreams". We think we understand why Jon would have such dreams. But why would Tyrion even mention such dreams, unless he also was having the dreams himself? (Mind reading is possible in this series, of course, but I think it unlikely that Tyrion himself has that skill.)

Tyrion has demonstrated a certain facility with using fire in warfare. An even though Tyrion is brilliant, he has uncontrollabe rages and lashes out verbally, more than once putting his own life in danger. Hmm, mad rages, interest in fire? Sounds Targareyan!

Interestingly enough, if Tyrion isn't a son of Tywin, then he isn't an accursed kinslayer either.

I think it likely that when the three heads of the dragon meet, they will all have Targareyan blood, they will all be very good at survival, and they will all be proven tacticians. My money is on Daenarys, Jon (Aegon?) Snow, and yes, Tyrion.

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Damn, and I had this corner ready for use, too.

Look, there's enough room for both of us. Although I think there's a few people around here who could do with a bit of corner sitting. They'll just have to find their own.

So assuming the theory is true, you think that someone told him. Who would that be, and why?

I only think that from the storytelling, it's possible for Aemon to know that R+L=J. I don't believe it as indisputable fact, that's why it's only a theory. I agree with you that Aemon may respect Jon for the reasons you gave, but there was this underlying mystery to their interchanges that coupled with all the other clues throughout the books gave me the impression of R+L=J.

The only thing is ... you're right. Aemon does think of himself as the last Targaryen! For R+L=J to fit, then Aemon can't know it. But Aemon's the uber-maester, he's not stupid, so when his crow cries "King" surely he's suspicious of the possibility. And yet, he's not. Hmmm, he knows something else.

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For instance: why does Jon Snow look like a Stark, a true Stark, just like Eddard and not like Robb and his siblings, when he is supposedly the product of both the Stark bloodline -- strong and ancient, true -- but also the Targaryen one? Is not the Valyrian ancestry of the Targaryens famous for producing extraordinary facial traits, such as silver-golden hair and eyes of strange colors? When Robb, Sansa, Arya and Rickon look like Tullys, how likely is it that Lyanna's blood overpowers Rhaegar's?

Incest helped them keep that look but there were some marriages to non-Targaryen women. A hundred years ago (The Hedge Knight short story) Baelor Targaryen was dark like his Dornish mother but his brother Maekar had the silver-gold Targaryen hair. GRRM has said that of Rhaegar's children with the Dornish Elia, Rhaenys took after her darker mother and Aegon had the traditional pale look. Arya, like Jon, is very much a Stark even though her siblings resemble their redheaded Tully mother - this leads to the argument that Ned said Arya reminds him of Lyanna, Arya and Jon have the same Stark look, thus it could be inferred that Jon looks like Lyanna (well, I don't think that is a particularly strong point in the favour of R+L, but at least it seems to confirm that there was something Starkish about her beauty).

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Although there's no real proof for it, it wouldn't surprise me if Aemon knew there was something special about Jon (not necessarily about him possibily being half-targaryen, but just special). Remember that Marwyn mentions that Aemon was never made Archmaester because of his blood, the quasi-magical blood of Old Valyria. It honestly would not surprise me if he's been having visions in the form of dreams, of some sort, especially since we know he was searching the prophecies.

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About the Lyanna-died-of-a-Caesarean theory: 1) There's often blood in childbirth (remember Maggi Maz Durr calls it "the bloody bed"). So the gore on Lyanna's dress in Theon's dream could be that.

2) Ned remembers Lyanna's death, how her room smelled of blood. "A fever had taken her strength," he recalls. She says "Promise me, Ned," and, when he promises, she smiles at him and dies holding his hand. The implication seems to be that she was hanging onto life until he promised whatever. If Lyanna died of complications following a Caesarean, I don't think Ned could have been the "surgeon." It seems to me that she dies shortly after he reaches her--no time for a fever to set in. Childbed fever in our middle ages did claim a lot of women's lives, though.

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On my paperback of AGOT one person appears alone on the cover. Jon Snow. It is a safe bet that when all the players have finished their "game of thrones" Jon will be on top. Simple foreshadowing. Also we know that "the song of ice and fire" most probably refers the joining of Targaryen and Stark bloodlines.

I always thought 'Song of Ice and Fire' referred to the coming battle between Others (Ice) and Dragons (Fire), the outcome of which will alter Westeros history and lore (or, it will be worthy of song). But it could have to do with the Stark-Targaryen angle...

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I always thought 'Song of Ice and Fire' referred to the coming battle between Others (Ice) and Dragons (Fire), the outcome of which will alter Westeros history and lore (or, it will be worthy of song). But it could have to do with the Stark-Targaryen angle...

GRRM has said that the title has several different layers of meaning. Consider-

1. The title could refer to the fact that the people of fire and light (meaning normal humans, and life) are fighting the People of the Ice and Night (the Others).

2. "A Song of Ice and Fire" could also refer to the two main supernatural characters - Bran (A child of the north, of the line of Kings of Winter) and Dany (a child of the Valyrian stock, of the Dragonlords and great fire sorcerors).

3. If Jon is half-targaryen, and half-stark, then "his is the song of Ice and Fire".

4. Whether or not Jon is half-targaryen, if he lives long enough to have a dynamic with Dany, then their's will be a "song of ice and fire" (since Jon is generally of the north, what with his 'weirwood wolf' and all.)

It's one of those things that is interesting to speculate about, and makes you wonder what GRRM had in mind.

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Just think, after all is said and done and if R + L does = J then Jon gets to realize "Ser Arthur Dayne fought to the death defending me and died in a fight against the man who raised me...my own uncle." What a mind-job.

He can walk around with a T-Shirt that says, "Three of the finest knights died for me and all I got was this lousy t-shirt." :lol:

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This is my first post here and I've lent out my books so can't do any direct quoting. After reading this thread over the last few weeks I was some one who came to the site believeing in R+L=J, and had been convinced otherwise.

I'm doing my re-read of the book by listening to audiobooks, and just started ACoK. In the beginning of the book when they are burning the spet on Dragonstone there is a scean where Stannin pulls a burning (burnt) sword from a fire. We are told the sword is light bringer and is was destened to be returned by one born of fire (without the book I hope I'm getting this right). That's when I went back to believing in R+L=J. With Jon leading the NW and heading north (I think), it's the perfect situation for him to be the true finder of lightbringer, which would mean he was a Dragon (bourn of fire).

Has this been brought up before? and if so, shot down or a good idea....

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