Spring Bass Posted November 2, 2006 Share Posted November 2, 2006 Guardsman Bass, if Robb legitimized Jon as a Stark, that wouldn't give him any Targaryen claim whatsoever; it might give him Winterfell or make him King in the North because those belong to the Starks, but it wouldn't move him any nearer to the Iron Throne. It wouldn't make him a Targaryen, but he could still present a claim through kinship, similar to the manner in which the Baratheons claimed the throne after-the-fact (Stannis, Robert, and Renly are grandsons of Aegon V's daughter). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shewoman Posted November 3, 2006 Share Posted November 3, 2006 Robert had a Targaryen claim through Aegon V's daughter; it was distant but he was in some sense an actual Targaryen heir. If Jon is legitimated as a Stark, he has no Targaryen claim. It's not enough to be kin to a Targaryen; you have to be kin on the Targaryen side. Otherwise the throne passes out of the Targaryen dynasty into whatever family you're from. If Jon is discovered to be a legitimate son of Rhaegar, or if he is legitimated as a Targaryen (which would remove his bastardy), or if people rally to him unlegitimated because he has Targaryen blood, he could end up as king. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spring Bass Posted November 3, 2006 Share Posted November 3, 2006 Robert had a Targaryen claim through Aegon V's daughter; it was distant but he was in some sense an actual Targaryen heir. If Jon is legitimated as a Stark, he has no Targaryen claim. It's not enough to be kin to a Targaryen; you have to be kin on the Targaryen side. Otherwise the throne passes out of the Targaryen dynasty into whatever family you're from. If Jon is discovered to be a legitimate son of Rhaegar, or if he is legitimated as a Targaryen (which would remove his bastardy), or if people rally to him unlegitimated because he has Targaryen blood, he could end up as king. He could still be designated as Dany's heir by her due to kinship, though, although to be fair I'm basing this off of historical example; William of Normandy (William the Conqueror) was designated as heir by his father, although William was technically a bastard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronn Stone Posted November 3, 2006 Share Posted November 3, 2006 He could still be designated as Dany's heir by her due to kinship, though, although to be fair I'm basing this off of historical example; William of Normandy (William the Conqueror) was designated as heir by his father, although William was technically a bastard. This all touches on the concept of political legitimacy in a feudal environment. Daenerys could designate anyone her heir in theory, but the truth is that they'd be more willing to follow that designee if he were of legitimate Targ blood. Lacking a legitimate Targ heir, they would be more likely to accept a Targ of baseborn lineage than say Pate the pig boy. The historical example of Richard II speaks as well. He was such a jerk that people were more than glad to disregard his wishes once he died. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shewoman Posted November 3, 2006 Share Posted November 3, 2006 I doubt that Dany would want to choose as her heir someone she believes not to have any Targaryen blood. If Jon is Rhaegar's son and Dany learns/believes this, that could be a problem; if he's legitimate by birth or if he's legitimated, as Rhaegar's son he's ahead of her in the succession. Designation of heirs is sometimes ignored, particularly if there's a more popular or well-connected contender than the one chosen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronn Stone Posted November 3, 2006 Share Posted November 3, 2006 Right now, Daenerys believes that she is either the last Targaryen or at the very least the last with a significant quantity of Targ blood. Unless what we think about Jon is true, she may not have a choice. Should she take the throne, she'll designate SOMEONE. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shewoman Posted November 4, 2006 Share Posted November 4, 2006 I'm not convinced that she's barren. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhaegon Targaryen Posted November 4, 2006 Share Posted November 4, 2006 He could still be designated as Dany's heir by her due to kinship, though, although to be fair I'm basing this off of historical example; William of Normandy (William the Conqueror) was designated as heir by his father, although William was technically a bastard. Yes, yes, I agree with the Guardsman. All this talk of Jon not being able to take the throne because of his unconventional parentage is bollocks as the only thing that will matter is who has the power to take and hold the throne not who has the better claim, whatever the ins and outs of who is whom's parents. As GB said above before William the Conqueror (the acknowledged model for Aegon) was known as William the Conqueror, he was known as William the Bastard!! The Throne goes to he who is strong enough to hold it. And in this case sit in it without having their arse sliced to bits. Of course I'm not saying he will take the throne, just that bastardy is not an obstacle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spring Bass Posted November 4, 2006 Share Posted November 4, 2006 I doubt that Dany would want to choose as her heir someone she believes not to have any Targaryen blood. If Jon is Rhaegar's son and Dany learns/believes this, that could be a problem; if he's legitimate by birth or if he's legitimated, as Rhaegar's son he's ahead of her in the succession. Designation of heirs is sometimes ignored, particularly if there's a more popular or well-connected contender than the one chosen. Would he be ahead of her in the line of succession even if she was the Queen who legitimized him? It seems odd that he would supplant her as the rightful heir when she's already on the throne and she's the one who legitimized him. Or, she could do what was done in the case of Daemon Blackfyre; designate Jon as her heir, and decree that upon her death, he becomes legitimized as a Targaryen. With a less scrupulous heir, that would be asking for trouble; but Jon seems like a pretty honorable fellow. In any case, as Rhaegon mentioned, the (possible) kinship between Dany and Jon would merely be icing on the cake, if she's barren, since she'll have to appoint someone as heir if she can't have anymore children, and the fact that aside from the potential Rhaegar's son, there's no clear kin to succeed (especially if all the legitimate Baratheons are dead). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A wilding Posted November 5, 2006 Share Posted November 5, 2006 If Dany does legitimise Jon, then the obvious political action would be to simultaneously marry him. This would defuse the issue of which of them came first in the succession. If Dany is barren, then the obvious solution to that would be to then bring another woman into the marriage to mother an heir. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shewoman Posted November 5, 2006 Share Posted November 5, 2006 GB, it depends on how Jon is legitimized. If he's flat-out legitimized as Rhaegar's son, then he does outrank Dany since Rhaegar's line inherits before any other children of Aerys do. Dany could probably legitimize him while stipulating that he comes after her in the succession, although that could cause problems since, no matter what she says, he's actually ahead of her. (Of course, this begs the whole question of how Jon would deal with his obligation to the NW.) Marriage is an option, although I don't think Jon is going to marry his aunt (too much of Ned in that boy). Mirri Maz Duur is our source for saying that Dany is barren. In fact, what she says is that Drogo will return when Dany has a living child, and not before. She lists other unlikely events that must happen before Drogo returns--sun rising in the east, seas going dry and mountains blowing in the wind like leaves. I can visualize R'hllor or those faithful to him doing something that satisfies those qualifications. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enguerrand Posted November 6, 2006 Share Posted November 6, 2006 He could still be designated as Dany's heir by her due to kinship, though, although to be fair I'm basing this off of historical example; William of Normandy (William the Conqueror) was designated as heir by his father, although William was technically a bastard. But William is not a very good example. The reason that William could become duke were the Norman's heathen Scandinavian heritage were wedlock was of far lesser importance then in the Christian cultural sphere. Even so he was known as the bastard for his entire life. I can’t think of another bastard in history that have become king. Would he be ahead of her in the line of succession even if she was the Queen who legitimized him? It seems odd that he would supplant her as the rightful heir when she's already on the throne and she's the one who legitimized him. In real life legitimised bastards always was placed after trueborn heirs. In this case, Danerys needs to be a crowned queen for her proclamation to hold true, I can’t really see his claim suddenly supersede that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spring Bass Posted November 6, 2006 Share Posted November 6, 2006 n real life legitimised bastards always was placed after trueborn heirs. In this case, Danerys needs to be a crowned queen for her proclamation to hold true, I can’t really see his claim suddenly supersede that. That's what I was thinking. But like I said, even if that's not the case, Dany could still probably acknowledge him as Rhaegar's bastard and declare him as her heir to be legitimized on her deathbed (although that would probably cause chaos if there was a surviving legimitate Baratheon, like a legitimized Edric Storm). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Adder Posted November 7, 2006 Share Posted November 7, 2006 I can’t think of another bastard in history that have become king.[end quote] Oliver Cromwell? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shewoman Posted November 7, 2006 Share Posted November 7, 2006 Was Cromwell a bastard--aside from his personality, that is? And he was Lord Protector, not king. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enguerrand Posted November 7, 2006 Share Posted November 7, 2006 No, Oliver Cromwell was apperantly concieved but not born out of wedlock. (nothing really unusual about that.) No stigma was attached to his birth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Summer Posted November 10, 2006 Share Posted November 10, 2006 If Jon is a bastard and born in the South why is his name Snow? I'm sure I know this but I can't remember... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrbk Posted November 11, 2006 Share Posted November 11, 2006 I don't know if this has been mentioned before (it prolly has though), but it seems odd to me that, if in fact, Jon is the result of Rhaegar's and Lyanna's lovemaking, he doesn't look anything at all like a Targaryen! He looks a lot like Eddard though, but he hasn't got any of the traditional Targaryen trademarks, ie. the silver hair and odd-colored eyes. Returning to his very Stark-ish look (which of course isn't a mystery with a Stark mother. However..), a pretty obscene theory could be another case of incest. This time between Lyanna and Ned; we keep/kept hearing about how much he cared about her. Perhaps it was more than just brotherly love?! Nah that would conflict with Neddy's silly honor. So thats not a very likely scenario. All I really wanted to say is that I'm not (yet) entirely bought on the whole L+R=J "theory". It just seems off that Jon should be Targaryen when he doesn't look anything like them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shewoman Posted November 11, 2006 Share Posted November 11, 2006 chrbk, not all of the Targs have the characteristic look (one of Egg's brothers in Hedge Knight doesn't). And I don't think it's possible that Ned and Lyanna produced a child; Ned thinks so often about Cersei and Jaime's incest and I don't think he could avoid thinking "well, of course there was that time we . . . ." if they had. Summer, I think Jon's name is "Snow" because that's the name for bastards in the north and that's where he and Ned live. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PetiteFlower Posted November 12, 2006 Share Posted November 12, 2006 The reason that so many of the Targaryans had the silver hair and purple eyes is because they were INBRED! Without the inbreeding, there is no reason to think that those traits wouldn't have been recessive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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