The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread

[Weirwood_Grin]

I did not recall the full name and age of Ned Dayne, but what I hear sounds quite plausible.

As for Lyanna, she was the sister of Eddard and Brandon Stark, daughter to Lord Rickard Stark. Brandon was executed as a traitor without just cause, why not Lyanna by association?

Also, it just occurred to me that there is another possibility for the Kingsguard at the Tower of Joy. Mayhaps Rhaegar gave orders to keep her away from Eddard and company, but to kill her if things went south. (from the perspective of the KG)

[Maybe]

Everytime I look back this theory gets more complex. Leave it as R+L=Jon, that is supported by evidence and few enough people guess it as it is, we don't need sudden baby swaps (in the Ned Dayne case looking 4-5 years younger too) or dead people secretly spirted away when their are no hints that any of this has taken place.

It's getting to the point where it has become a secret history for the "real" events of the book, if we want to go there we could just say the Aerys survivied and the entire series is based on false assumptions. I urge you not to make this logical theory a parody of itself.

[Cynthesis]

Rhaegar doesn't seem the type to have Lyanna killed...

[Stratonice]

Stratonice, I believe Weirwood Grin was referring to Ashara as Arthur Dayne's sister, not Ned's.

Why would Aerys consider Lyanna a traitor against the crown?

Now that I re-read the passage I see that you're right. Thanks for pointing it out!

As to why Aerys would consider Lyanna a traitor, probably for the same reason he considered her father and at least two of her brothers to be traitors. Not to mention the fact that she, presumably, was pregnant by his son and heir. But regardless of whether she was pregnant or not (and if so by whom), from Aerys perspective the whole mess could probably be considered her fault. He probably convinced himself that it was Lyanna who convinced Rhaegar ta take off (and maybe it was).

He may even have believed it was all part of a plot from the Starks to gain power (Lyanna taking off with the crown prince, later turns out to be pregnant (presumably by said prince), Brandon comes to KL making threats against members of the royal family, etc). The future of Lyanna's presumed child could also have been part of it, though there's no evidence for it. If Aerys wanted the child killed and Lyanna and Lord Rikard both refused he would probably consider that evidence that they were traitors (after all, he was paranoid).

[Mezeh]

The situation near the Tower of Joy was discussed several times already but nevertheless.

The main goal of Kingsguard was protecting the royal family. This didn’t mean that they could not go on some other errand but somebody should stay and protect the king. We could clearly see it in AFFC when Jaime remind how he asked Rhaegar to take him to Trident and to leave in KL somebody else. Yet it was clear that somebody should stay.

Now it’s also clear that at the Tower of Joy Ned tried to avoid the fight and to persuade Kingsguards to go away and let him have his sister. He tell them that the quinn fled KL with younger chield to Dragonstone accompanied by ser Darry. They state in answer that Darry is good and loyal man but not of Kingsguad. Well it seems to be obvious that whatever were their orders from Rhaegar (and it should be Rhaegar by ser Arthur presence) now their first duty is to protect remaining members of royal family since they are the only members of Kingsguards remained. Yet they refused stayed fought and died. Why? The only answer is that to stay there was no less or even more important then to protect the quinn and the last remaining heir. I fail to see other reasonable explanation then Rhaegar secretly married Lyanna and she was pregnant with his child. Then Kingsguads indeed had no choice but to stay and fight since both Lyanna and her child now ere the members of the royal family the sworn to protect and while there wasn’t danger to Lyanna from her brother her child they could not surrender in any case.

[Shewoman]

Thanks to those who answered my question about Aerys' opinion of Lyanna. I wonder how much Aerys knew about that? It's interesting that Jaime was there when Rickard and Brandon were killed and he doesn't report Aerys saying anything about Lyanna and Rhaegar--surely Jaime would have remembered that. If Aerys was out to get the whole family (and, with his later asking for Ned's head, one could make a case for that) one would think that Lyanna's name would come up.

I don't think Rhaegar would have left orders to kill Lyanna, especially if he really wanted their child to survive.

[JaimeLannister]

Even if these three were ordered to kill Lyanna, if they are as honourable as we are led to believe they wouldn't carry out the threat, the swear on oath when they become knights to protect weak and helpless so can't see them going against this.

The oath they swear as KG does not include murdering anyone the King orders you to, hence Jaime telling them to disregard any such orders from tommen

[Errant Bard]

Even if these three were ordered to kill Lyanna, if they are as honourable as we are led to believe they wouldn't carry out the threat, the swear on oath when they become knights to protect weak and helpless so can't see them going against this.

Yeah, like when they protected Rhaella against Aerys, or when they followed their feelings and gave Rickard Stark a quick death, or when the White Bull did say to Jaime they had a right to judge Aerys and not follow his orders.

[MountainThatRides]

William the Conqueror is a very fascinating example. There are very few bastard kings indeed, historically.

But what about legendary? Every medieval legend has some kernel of truth, no matter how obscure. I haven't read this whole thread (mostly because this theory is about as old as the series and I'm sure I've seen most of the arguments before), but I'm pretty sure no one has commented on the greatest medieval legend of all time. The story that created the fantasy genre as we know it today, the most well-known series of fables in the entire world. You must know a bit of it at least, it contains a wizard and a big round table and a bastard king...

Certainly that comparison rings true with Viserys and Daenerys, but they were known of. If the R+L=J theory is true, it gives the comparison a lot of credibility the more I think about it. It's also one of the reasons why ASoIaF reminds me so much of The Once and Future King. Jon Snow was hidden in obscurity, without it being known that he was of Targaryen blood to protect him from Robert and the Lannisters, fostered and raised as a son by one of Robert's good friends and Lords Bannermen, though working unbeknown to the Usurper in order to keep a promise to Lyanna... Just like Arthur was hidden in obscurity by Sir Ector, friend of certain ambitious men like Uriens Rheged and Lot of Orkney, in order to protect him while he grew into a man and could claim his birth right. Just as we don't know if the R+L=J theory is correct, we also don't know whether or not Rhaegar had any notion of his son - either way he rode off to die in battle over a war that cost him the throne, much as Uther Pendragon did. Jon lived in the shadow of his elder trueborn brother (Robb), never expecting to exceed him in anything, especially power - much like the relationship of young Arthur and Sir Kay. Now Robb is dead and Jon is the Lord Commander of the Night's Watch, and if the theory is correct, the rightful heir to the Iron Throne. Regardless of whether or not he ever rules the entire realm, there is speculation that he will become the King in the North. So he will, in theory, surpass Robb. Arthur had Merlin and Jon had Aemon Targaryen - an old and extremely knowledgeable man who gives Jon some of the most profound and influential advice in his life. Just as Merlin left Arthur before the fateful Battle of Camlann and confrontation with Mordred, Aemon dies before Jon faces his most difficult trials.

I could go on for pages. The more I compare the two stories, the more I see similarities - perhaps coincidental in some cases. Whether or not Martin had this consciously in mind when he wrote the story (which I don't think he did), the tales of King Arthur are so thoroughly ingrained into Western Culture and the Fantasy genre that it was probably lurking in his head all the while.

[Not another Stark]

KG first must protect the king, then obey him, then take care of the rest of the royals, from what I can tell.

ErrantBard, don't forget what Jaime told Catelyn: They make you take so many oaths there will be problems down the line. "Obey the king, kill whom he tells you to kill, don't kill helpless people..."

Jaime ironically was of the opinion KG should keep some ethics, which is why he was massively depressed and disappointed with Aerys, and with Hightower's statement that he should obey Aerys and not judge him - and why ultimately he killed him and his pyromancer. That's the key reason why he states KG shouldn't kill everyone Tommen wants dead - beside, Tywin more or less was of the same opinion with Joffrey and assumed the Hand being an adult, the Hand prevailed over a boy-king.

Concerning bastard kings, there's quite a few of them if we would search through the hundreds of historical kings. I suppose they are very few in Christian European kings, for obvious reasons, but there must have been many of them before and elsewhere. Besides, some historical kings have been accused or suspected of being bastards (see the whole War of Roses thingie, or Charles VII being accused by his own mother of being a bastard Dauphin).

Then, in older times, there are many legends of semi-historical or not-historical-at-all kings who were bastards. I seem to remember some of the legends about Sargon of Akkad, one of the first imperial monarchs in history, alleged he was bastard. There's of course one major advantage of having a shady origin, in old times, namely, that there's always the chance you're actually the offspring of some deity who paid a visit to your mother. Not that you'd necessarily think it, but you can make others consider it. Heck, it was even tried with Alexander...

[Inigo Montoya]

I'm on my second reading of ASOS and am getting a different picture than when I read it the first time and what I'm seeing posted here. Here are main points that I remember of the top of my head.

Dany: Going through the house of the undieing (wizards) see's a man with a harp with silver strings (i think), a woman, and a child. He is telling her (the woman) not to worry and that she would have many true born sons. I don't remember if he was saying the child was the chosen one or not, but it did come up. I think it is Rhaegar, Lyanna, and Jon in this scean. Then there is Barristan (white beard at the time) telling her that Rhaegar was a studius boy with no interest in fighting untill he found a scroll. Then went to the practice grounds and told everyone it looks like he was destined (or meant to be) a warrior. He was mostlikly thinking that if he was destined to be what he had found he had to revamp his life as it was.

Jamie: In the dungon when he is going over how Aerys killed Brandon and their father. Brandon was on his way to Riverrun when he hears about Lyanna. He rushes off to KL, barges into the castel and demads Rhaegar's come out and fight him. He gets Aerys instead and the rest is painfull history. I don't think Rhaegar was even there. He was off with Lyanna outside of KL. In his own ofish way Brandon set in events that started the war and put the Starks in the situation they are in now (I know, a lot of events inbetween, but he was the spark). Did he at any time try and find out if Lyanna was being held against her will? We don't know. Did she even like Robert? Or was that an arainged marrage and she saw what kind of man Rober trully was?

Bran: In ASOS he is in wolf form and repeditly think of his lost pack and how there were 5 of them. That's right he keeps thinking 5! And the other one (snow).

So why this long post. I think the changed Rhaegar fell in love with Lyanna and vise versa. He was planning on marrying her and giving her many true born sons if he hadn't already married her. The KG was at the T.O.J. to protect Rhaegar's new wife (or wife to be) and all on his side thought that Ned was like Brandon and Robert. Why bother to explain everything (not that Ned had a right to question the prince) when he wouldn't believe them. "Well Ned, they are in love. She thinks Robert (your best friend) is a dult and a womanizer and she loves Rhaegar. The whole mess about killing your brother and father was one big missunderstanding. Now give up like a good little boy and we can explain all this to the Tully's (we just killed the man he was to marry his first born daughter to), Robert, Dorn (going to be getting rid of Rhaegars wife after all), and all the relm." Nope, these are knights. They follow orders and fight. Ned only finds the truth out after he wins the fight and finds Lyanna. I'll admit I don't know if he finds her dying (but i think so)

or just pregnent but she makes him promis to protect her son and keep this huge secret.

Well, this is my second post, and the first got ignored, so I hope this gets more of a responce. Just don't pick me to pieces, winter is comming after all......

[Mezeh]

Concerning bastard kings, there's quite a few of them if we would search through the hundreds of historical kings. I suppose they are very few in Christian European kings, for obvious reasons, but there must have been many of them before and elsewhere.

There were a few bastards kings in medieval Europe but you could find them. The most of them were in 14-th century Spain. King Manfred in Sicily and probably some else. Prince Vladimir of Russia was a son of slave concubine – very close to bastard in Christian times.

But returning to Westeros and R+L story if Jon is their son then he is not necessary a bastard on the opposite Rhaegar could have married Lyanna since polygamy was not forbidden to Targaryens. And if he did he should have to keep such a marriage in secret at least until the end of the war.

[Lyanna Stark-Targaryen]

I was thinking about Jon's wolf. It doesn't confirm R+L=J, but it confirms that Jon is a Stark. Only the Stark kids got wolves (there wasn't one for Jeyne Poole, duh), for Jon to get a wolf he would have to have Stark blood in him. It certainly doesn't rule out that he's Eddard's kid, but it is a clear sign that he's part Stark. I don't know if it's been said before (it probably has), but I felt like mentioning it. Everyone always said that Lyanna had more than a touch of wolf's blood in her so maybe they're why Jon, who isn't a trueborn Stark, still got a wolf?

[Spring Bass]

I think it is Rhaegar, Lyanna, and Jon in this scean

I think GRRM actually confessed that this was Rhaegar, Elia, and Aegon in that vision.

[The Wyld Wolf]

I think GRRM actually confessed that this was Rhaegar, Elia, and Aegon in that vision.

I agree.

And about Lyanna's Stark Targaryen's post, I think that is a good point about Lyanna's wolf blood. Because when Meera tells Jon of her father's journey to Harrenhall, it speaks of Lyanna beating up some squires and saving the crannogman. She was a Wyld Wolf.

[PetiteFlower]

The Wild Wolf was Ned's brother Brandon. Lyanna was the She Wolf.

[Inigo Montoya]

But Aegon was a true born son. Not arguing, just trying to understand. The impression in that scean is that he is promising she will have true born sons.

If Brandon was the wild wolf, is that who riccon and Area take after?

Rob definatly takes after Eddard

[Stratonice]

But Aegon was a true born son. Not arguing, just trying to understand. The impression in that scean is that he is promising she will have true born sons.

If Brandon was the wild wolf, is that who riccon and Area take after?

Rob definatly takes after Eddard

Brandon is the one refered to as the Wild Wolf in Meera's story. However, Ned tells Arya that both Brandon and Lyanna had, what he calls, the wolf's blood (Lyanna had "a drop" and Brandon had more than that). A "wild" quality he sees in Arya too. He also claims that the wolf's blood brought them both to early graves.

Ned's way of talking about it, the fact that there even seems to be a name for it, indicate to me that it's a common phenomenon in the Stark family (like insanity seems to be in the Targaryen family maybe). Something that turns up every once in a while in children born in the family.

[PetiteFlower]

We don't know enough about Rickon to really say who he takes after but it's likely that it's Ned's brother Brandon. Ned says specifically though that Arya reminds him of Lyanna, at least as I remember it.

Dany: Going through the house of the undieing (wizards) see's a man with a harp with silver strings (i think), a woman, and a child. He is telling her (the woman) not to worry and that she would have many true born sons.

I think you're getting your scenes mixed up. This is the scene that Dany sees in the House of the Undying:

The fifth room, finally, shows a man very much alike her brother Viserys, except that he is taller and has eyes of dark indigo rather than lilac. He is speaking to a woman who is nursing a newborn babe, telling her that the child's name should be Aegon and saying that "What better name for a king?". The woman asks him if he will make a song for the child, and he replies that he has a song and that "He is the prince that was promised, and his is the song of ice and fire.". He appears to look at Dany then, as if seeing her, and then he adds that "There must be one more," and "The dragon has three heads."

The man telling the woman not to worry and that she will have many trueborn sons is Hoster Tully in his dementia remembering a conversation he had with Lysa after he made her drink moon tea to get rid of Littlefinger's baby.

The scene that Dany saw was clearly Rhaegar, Elia and baby Aegon. It would have taken place before he met Lyanna, though probably not by much.

[Maester Yobjascz]

Hmmm, did a quick scan of the thread, and didn't see anyone make this point (though I might have missed it).

It seems to me that a strong argument in favor of R+L=J can be made, not in reference to the text, but in reference to what's *not* in the text. There's plenty of textual evidence to support the theory, as the preceding 30+ pages testify to, but sometimes it's what's missing that makes the difference.

GRRM has stated that some people will never have PoV's, because they know too much. Principal among them are Littlefinger, Varys, and Howland Reed. The question is, what information could they possibly share that would wreck the mystery of the series should it be known?

Littlefinger and Varys are, to some extent, superfluous... Varys was the spymaster for the realm... it was his job to know everything. Littlefinger's possible connections to Varys puts him into a similar position. Good intel is his weapon in the game of thrones, and he makes it his job to dig up dirt on everyone. It's Howland Reed that stands out.

So, what could Howland Reed possibly know that makes a difference to the series? With all the textual evidence pointing to R+L=J, the analysis becomes more simple:

If R+L=J, then Reed would know. He was there at the ToJ. He was Ned's closest friend, and the only other survivor. He would know Jon's true parentage and likely would have learned of any formal marriage between Rhaegar & Lyanna. This secret about Jon would influence our view of Jon in reading the novels. Instead of a bastard rising through the ranks to become Lord Commander of the Night's Watch, he'd be an undiscovered prince doing the same. We'd be expecting him to learn his true parentage and assume the throne. Instead, most readers (blissfully unaware of this theory) see him differently, and will be totally shocked by any such revelations. Moreover, this is something that Varys *could* have discovered. He was, after all, high in the King's Court during the rebellion. Littlefinger is more difficult... he didn't join the court until Jon Arryn brought him in after Robert was crowned. But this could be explained by Littlefinger's desire for information, or ties to Varys.

If R+L!=J, then Reed would know... what? I can't think of anything that would effect the story one way or another. Reed could possibly know about the Children of the Forest, perhaps something about the Others, and the like. But that doesn't fit with out other information. First, why not send a raven (or himself) to the Wall to educate the Night's Watch about what he knows? Why leave it to his kids to educate Bran alone? Further, the secret is apparently shared with Littlefinger and Varys. Varys *might* be interested in the CotF because of his hate for magic, but why would this bar his PoV? Same for Littlefinger, except I can't fathom why he'd be interested, or how his knowledge would bar his PoV.

Thoughts?