Jump to content

The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread


Stark Future

Recommended Posts

Good point, MY.

I think Varys could probably figure it out. He was in King's Landing, and being the spymaster, like you said, makes a lot of information privy to his hearing. He may have used this and put two and two together.

Littlefinger I'm not so sure about. I think it was said that Jon Arryn got Littlefinger the position in King's Landing after he married Lysa, so he wouldn't be in position in KL permanently until after the War of the Usurper was over. Unlike Varys, who could have quite possibly have overheard conversations between Rhaegar, Lyanna, and other parties if they passed through, Littlefinger would only have had access to some indirect after-the-fact sources, and probably wouldn't know where to start.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The PoV that I am looking forward to most in the next book is Sam. I've been trying to figure out what kind of plot point there would be for him going to Oldtown besides what we are told (info on the others). That just seems way to straight forward. I think Sam is going to find some kind of marage record for R+L at the Citadel.

Then throw in that Jon just does not act like a Stark. As much as I like them and root for them the Stark men just seem to be to stupid to live. My friends have pounded that fact into my head so many times it has finaly taken. I believe the phrase was Lawful Stupid. Rob, Ned, Brandon, Ned's father (can't remember his name)... I mean the mad king has your son, you believe his son kidnapped your daughter and you go (must have been close to alone) alone to straighten out the situation??? Jon has handeled himself well and has done things that show there is other blood there besides Stark blood.

The women seem to have the same blood but like the Simpsons, it seems to work in their favor...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Maester Yobjascz,

You make some good points. However, I'm not sure the "too much knowledge" necessarily has to be the same thing for all of them.

Varys, as the spy master, knows more or less everything there is to know about all plots taking place in KL (and probably a lot about most plots outside KL). That's enough to disqualify him from a POV even if he don't know about R+L=J or if it's not true. Knowing who's plotting what with whom and what others are doing to counter it before it happens would ruin the enjoyment in watching the plots unfold.

With LF the situation is similar but not identical. He is the one making a lot of the major action happen. Setting Starks and Lannisters against each other, probably the one behind Ned being executed instead of sent to the wall, Joff's murder, etc. (By the way, this makes me wonder whether he didn't plant the idea with Renly that being a King would suit him, all to increase chaos even further.) In spite of all this, we still don't really know where he's going with all of this. Had we had his POV from the start, we would have known of most of these things before they happened and as with Varys, it would have ruined the enjoyment.

Howland Reed, as you point out, is the only one of the three that doesn't seem to fit. That could easily be seen as support for the R+L=J theory. But there is a possibility that he knows something else that happened in the days of the Rebellion, something relating to the Others and under all circumstances he probably knows who Jon's mother is (regardless of whether it's Lyanna, Wylla, Ashara Dayne or someone else entierly) or maybe all of these.

I just don't think that they need to know the same thing/-s that disqualifies them on the basis of knowing too much. (But if the R+L=J theory is true, Varys probably knows or at least suspects the possibility.)

Edit: spelling

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm with Stratonice.

Varys just knows the depths of the whole Targ loyalists' plot to pick Dany and bring her as new Queen of Westeros. This is the main point that disqualifies him. So far, we just know he's plotting with Mopatis, but don't know much more about what, when and how. A Varys POV would give all that away.

Littlefinger is plotting so many things at the same time, and probably has many plots like Stark/Lannister war or Joff's death going on that he can't be a POV because we would know beforehand what majort plot twists are gonna happen.

Or at least, they're out of POV until the last book when the war on the Others will make moot most of their conspiracies ;)

Reed isn't apparently involved in any of this, so what has he to hide, except for what happened at the Tower of Joy?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Lets say that L+R=J is true. I've posted more than one post saying I'm leaning in that direction. Would Ned let Jon join the Nights Watch?

I see both sides, Robert would kill him if he ever fond out (but if he was Lyanna's, would he?), he lied to Katlyn so long he can't tell her, it would keep him safe and stop the line of dragons. But I can't see Neds pride being stronger than his Honor. And letting Jon go if it was true just doesn't seem honorable... :huh:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

if it was true just doesn't seem honorable...

Why not? Unless he swore to restore the Targaryens to power, a job in the NW is honourable and respects the boy's wishes. Beside, others Targaryens have worked there, as well as Ned's own brother and a bunch of other nobles. Where is there a problem?

Edit: and of course, even if Jon is half-Targ, there are two officially recognized Targ heirs still around,

Link to comment
Share on other sites

IF R+L=J is true, clearly Ned has gone to great lengths to keep that secret from everyone . . . including Jon and Catelyn. I think this is probably one of the promises he made to Lyanna, although of course we don't know that yet. What is Jon supposed to do when he grows up? There's no question of his inheriting Winterfell: Ned has three legitimate sons and two legitimate daughters who would come first. And, in spite of the fact that he and Robert aren't nearly as close as they once were, I don't think Ned has any desire to remove Robert from the throne (although he doesn't trust Robert's Lannister in-laws). And even if Ned did want to do that, it would most likely end up with Jon's death and Ned loves the boy. So what options are there? The Wall. Ned's own brother has chosen that as a career; the Starks have always supported the NW and obviously see it as an honorable calling. And it is perhaps the one place in Westeros where Jon could succeed on his own merits--in addition to the overwhelming advantage of keeping him uninvolved in Westerosi politics and away from any who might have questions about his origins.

Unless, of course, he were to become Lord Commander of the NW at 17. But what are the odds of THAT happening?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm with Stratonice.

Varys just knows the depths of the whole Targ loyalists' plot to pick Dany and bring her as new Queen of Westeros. This is the main point that disqualifies him. So far, we just know he's plotting with Mopatis, but don't know much more about what, when and how. A Varys POV would give all that away.

Littlefinger is plotting so many things at the same time, and probably has many plots like Stark/Lannister war or Joff's death going on that he can't be a POV because we would know beforehand what majort plot twists are gonna happen.

Or at least, they're out of POV until the last book when the war on the Others will make moot most of their conspiracies ;)

Reed isn't apparently involved in any of this, so what has he to hide, except for what happened at the Tower of Joy?

I’m completely unsure that Targ’s loyalists planned Dany to become a Quinn. They had some plans about her for sure but if they mean her for throne then why they ignored her with her brother for a long time and then allowed her to marry Drogo? Unless they planned for his death that seems unlikely her marriage made for her impossible to take a Westeros throne not to talk that her brother preceded her.

The dragon has three heads and it would be safe to assume that Varys and Illirio know them all or at least think that they know. Then Dany only on of the heads and it is quite possible that they planned for throne one of the others two.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I’m completely unsure that Targ’s loyalists planned Dany to become a Quinn. They had some plans about her for sure but if they mean her for throne then why they ignored her with her brother for a long time and then allowed her to marry Drogo? Unless they planned for his death that seems unlikely her marriage made for her impossible to take a Westeros throne not to talk that her brother preceded her.

The dragon has three heads and it would be safe to assume that Varys and Illirio know them all or at least think that they know. Then Dany only on of the heads and it is quite possible that they planned for throne one of the others two.

Their behaviour in regards to Dany and Viserys is strange either way.

Doran clearly meant for Viserys to become King since he betrothed Arianne to him and intended her to be his Queen and for Quentyn to be Prince of Dorne. He only adapted his plan to Dany when Viserys died, we know as much from his own words in AFFC.

Varys and Illyrio though. If they meant for Viserys to become King it seems strange that Illyrio didn't make more of an effort to keep Viserys from joining the khalasaar (sp?), something that obviously would be a disaster waiting to happen. IIRC Dany thinks of this as well after Viserys died.

On the other hand, if they intended for Dany to be the Queen all along, definitley a possibility considering Viserys' mental state, why did they have her marry Drogo? His warriors would be a great asset in conquering Westeros but they would all be a problem once the conquering was done.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

His warriors would be a great asset in conquering Westeros but they would all be a problem once the conquering was done.

In the conversation Arya overhears, they say they want the Khal to "bestir himself", and he'd do that only after Dany's child was born.

As Westeros has seen first men, Rhoynar, Andals and Valyrian conquer it, I imagine they thought yet another invading race wasn't that much of a problem after all.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Their behaviour in regards to Dany and Viserys is strange either way.

Doran clearly meant for Viserys to become King since he betrothed Arianne to him and intended her to be his Queen and for Quentyn to be Prince of Dorne. He only adapted his plan to Dany when Viserys died, we know as much from his own words in AFFC.

Varys and Illyrio though. If they meant for Viserys to become King it seems strange that Illyrio didn't make more of an effort to keep Viserys from joining the khalasaar (sp?), something that obviously would be a disaster waiting to happen. IIRC Dany thinks of this as well after Viserys died.

On the other hand, if they intended for Dany to be the Queen all along, definitley a possibility considering Viserys' mental state, why did they have her marry Drogo? His warriors would be a great asset in conquering Westeros but they would all be a problem once the conquering was done.

I agree with you completely. Illirio not only allowed Viserys to join the khalasaar but he earlier let him to ruin his reputation by becoming the “Beggar King†while even relatively small financial help easily could be made untraceable could have save Viserys from that trouble. Well there is something about Dany in spoilers

SPOILER: ADWD

Illirio admits to Tyrion that she knows nothing about what Dany has become and she was but a frightened girl when he knew her. It barely fits with him intending her for the throne.

I I could not help feeling that Illirio and Varys had somebody else in their mind and most probably not just in the mind but in hand as well. This could not however be Jon even if the R+L=J theory is correct. He was too far and they had no may to influence him. However this not exclude the possibility that they know about him and still intend him to be the third head.

In the conversation Arya overhears, they say they want the Khal to "bestir himself", and he'd do that only after Dany's child was born.

As Westeros has seen first men, Rhoynar, Andals and Valyrian conquer it, I imagine they thought yet another invading race wasn't that much of a problem after all.

It’s clear that all previous conquests caused heavy and prolonged wars. All but Aegon’s but he brought very few people with him so it was difficult. Don’t forget that dothraki is very different by culture from the people of Westeros so allowing them to stay after conquest would mean major trouble for a long time. Besides they are nomads and there is no place in Westeros where they could live as they accustomed to. This mean that even allowed to stay they would most likely leave and this mean that Dany should follow them.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

In the conversation Arya overhears, they say they want the Khal to "bestir himself", and he'd do that only after Dany's child was born.

As Westeros has seen first men, Rhoynar, Andals and Valyrian conquer it, I imagine they thought yet another invading race wasn't that much of a problem after all.

That's a possibility, but that would mean they didn't know the Dothraki (or the Westerosi) very well. Drogo wouldn't exactly have settled down in the Red Keep to rule the Kingdom. And considering the Dothraki view of women, they wouldn't have alowed Dany or any other woman to rule them.

Not to mention the problems their way of life would have caused with the people already living there. The Lords of Westeros may accept murder and rape of civilians as a necessary evil in war but I doubt many of them would take kindly to having their small folk (or their families for that matter) being regularly murdered, raped and sold as slaves by the Dothraki.

Not a very good way to reinstate a deposed line on the throne...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Not a very good way to reinstate a deposed line on the throne...

Well, let's put it like that: When you already betrayed a whole kingdom, what's betraying a tribe of barbarians in comparison? Especially when said barbarians incidently had a lot of losses in the last battles, including all their leaders, for some reason. :D

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Doran may not have known how bitter, cruel and eventually borderline insane Viserys was becoming. Illyrio and Varys knew and expected that Dany would end up being the legitimate heir.

As for the Dothraki, they would've ravaged Westeros, conquered the kingdom, and then the surviving ones would've turned back to the East - they just couldn't live for long in Westeros. Dany would've followed them - she would've remained in the kingdom she at long last had won - even if Drogo was still alive, I think. Then of course many Dothraki including leaders wouldn't have survived - they're not as tough as dragons, and even dragons were eventually wiped out.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well, let's put it like that: When you already betrayed a whole kingdom, what's betraying a tribe of barbarians in comparison? Especially when said barbarians incidently had a lot of losses in the last battles, including all their leaders, for some reason. :D

Good point. :)

I still think they underestimated the Dothraki (or possibly overestimated themselves) if that was their plan though.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Doran may not have known how bitter, cruel and eventually borderline insane Viserys was becoming. Illyrio and Varys knew and expected that Dany would end up being the legitimate heir.

Doran almost for sure didn’t know what Viserys had become. As for plans for Dany I already wrote that it doesn’t seem so. Most probably Illirio and Varys planned thorne for somebody else.

Good point. :)

I still think they underestimated the Dothraki (or possibly overestimated themselves) if that was their plan though.

I really doubt it. More likely they planned to use khal to put pressure to Robert.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Some people are 100% certain that Jon is the love child between Ned and Old Nan, but that tells us more about them, than it does about R+L=J. Likewise. :D

Artanaro

I agree with you that you can't say that R+L=J is 100% sure. I would rather say it's 50% 50%. I mean there are arguments that R+L=J is true, but most of them give us a wide range for interpretation and speculation. But it's the same thing with the theories that postulate Ned as Jons dad.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I agree with you that you can't say that R+L=J is 100% sure. I would rather say it's 50% 50%.

I disagree and didn't say that. I'll say this now. It's 99% the case that R+L=J isn't true. But should anyone care what I think? No :). My point was only that people who hold strong convictions about R+L=J (or any other theory) are not making the theory any more or less refutable.

It just means either they a) are blind to logic or facts B) advocate theories because of emotional biases c) are reasoned individuals that weigh all details before determining the best conclusion or d) follow none of the above. It is not for me to say which one Tyrion's Song falls under :D .

Artanaro

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
×
×
  • Create New...