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The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread


Stark Future

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While we were back on genes, someone mentioned that the Targaryens might marry brother to sister because their trademark looks would disappear in a generation. That would support R+L=J. But the Daynes have Targaryen blood, and they have retained their looks for generations.

Red Wolf:

No, it doesn't.

The argument against the theory is that R+L=J is a red herring because the clues are too obvious and almost all the readers get them. The data show that just under a third of the readers caught the clues pointing to R+L=J on their own, and therefore, the theory is not too obvious. Believing it or not has nothing to do with whether or not you picked up on it. I picked up that Taco Bell exists, but that doesn't mean I like their food.

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While we were back on genes, someone mentioned that the Targaryens might marry brother to sister because their trademark looks would disappear in a generation.

I don't think that is the reason for their intermarriage, they didn't have any problem with baelor Breakspear looks, for instance, and he had brown hair and brown eyes. I think it is related to the capability of controlling dragons that goes with the valyrian blood. They think that if they don't marry inside their family they won't be able of controlling dragons anymore ;)

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Jon is ice and Dany is fire?Could it be more obvious?

Yes, if you consider that Dany is fire, Bran is ice and Jon is ice and fire as the child of Rhaegar and Lyanna.

Or that's just one potentially "obvious" interpretation.

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I haven't noticed it mentioned yet (it seems one must start a post thus) but....

There is a passage in AGOT in which mormont's raven start saying "king" when Jon and Mormont are talking and it feels very prophetic. Haven't got the book handy but it's a good section of the book and I felt my nerves jangling when i read it. Does anyone have the book to see if it's as good as i remember?

Sorry for the lack of research into this post but I just remembered it and didn't want to forget.

Having said that, I think it would be more fitting with the character of Jon to have the chance to become King but decide to stay as Lord Commander at the wall.

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Yes Martin delights in dropping these things.

"King, " croaked the raven. The bird flapped across the solar to land on Mormont's shoulder. "King," it said again, strutting back and forth.

"He likes that word," Jon said, smiling.

"An easy word to say. An easy word to like."

"King," the bird said again.

"I think he means for you to have a crown, my lord."

"The realm has three kings already, and that's two too many for my liking." Mormont stroked the raven under the beak with a finger, but all the while his eyes never left Jon Snow.

It made him feel odd.

Here is another one when Gilly comes to Jon for help.

Her arms closed over the swell of her belly. "Is it true, m'lord? Are you brother to a king?"

"A half brother," he admitted. "I'm Ned Stark's bastard. My brother Robb is the King in the North. Why are you here?"

"The fat one, that Sam, he said to see you. He give me his cloak, so no one would say I didn't belong."

"Won't Craster be angry with you?"

"My father drank overmuch of the Lord Crow's wine last night. He'll sleep most of the day." Her breath frosted the air in small nervous puffs. "They say the king gives justice and protects the weak." She started to climb off the rock, awkwardly, but the ice had made it slippery and her foot went out from under her. Jon caught her before she could fall, and helped her safely down. The woman knelt on the icy ground. "M'lord, I beg you-"

"Don't beg me anything. Go back to your hall, you shouldn't be here. We were commanded not to speak to Craster's women."

[...]

I'm only his squire. I do not choose the road I ride."

"No." He could hear the defeat in her voice. "Sorry to be of trouble, m'lord. I only . . . they said the king keeps people safe, and I thought . . ." Despairing, she ran, Sam's cloak flapping behind her like great black wings.

Jon watched her go, his joy in the morning's brittle beauty gone.

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didnt that scene happen before rob was crowned, if so it would just imply the worry mormount had concrning jon runing off to join his half brother, there was a comment from jon about being told only what they wanted him to know so that could explain mormounts reaction

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Yes Martin delights in dropping these things.

"King, " croaked the raven. The bird flapped across the solar to land on Mormont's shoulder. "King," it said again, strutting back and forth.

"He likes that word," Jon said, smiling.

"An easy word to say. An easy word to like."

"King," the bird said again.

"I think he means for you to have a crown, my lord."

"The realm has three kings already, and that's two too many for my liking." Mormont stroked the raven under the beak with a finger, but all the while his eyes never left Jon Snow.

It made him feel odd.

I think it's not clear from that quote if it is Mormont's eyes or the raven's eyes.

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I wrote already somewhere that the raven had been previously referred to "it" in the narration text, and as well, if "his eyes" are the raven's, it's plain very bad grammar. I believe it's mormont's eyes that are referred to.

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I wrote already somewhere that the raven had been previously referred to "it" in the narration text, and as well, if "his eyes" are the raven's, it's plain very bad grammar. I believe it's mormont's eyes that are referred to.

Good point, niamh. I will now think of it as Mormont and feel that it is not as strong as support for Jon becoming king as I once thought.

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With the Gilly scene, I believe that's when Gilly is asking help from Jon after a few brothers (Chett, I think) told her Jon's half-brother, Robb was king. I think Gilly was associating that since Jon's a Kings brother, and that kings were kind and merciful, Jon should be, too.

Though I like how it could be a hint of things to scome for Jon. ;)

Out of 75 included responses:

24 or 32% considered it on their own,

51 or 68% did not consider R+L=J on their own.

If we accept these results as valid, then it becomes clear that GRRM did a good job of hiding his clues, and the theory therefore suits his style.

Just wondering, though, since this is then L + R = Jon thread, when did those who considered the theory on their own 'know'? Was it a passage or perhaps several passages? A scene? A dialogue?

For me it was "Lyanna in her bed of blood". After reading Catelyn saying she brought forth Rob in her pain and blood, it just clicked.

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Just wondering, though, since this is then L + R = Jon thread, when did those who considered the theory on their own 'know'? Was it a passage or perhaps several passages? A scene? A dialogue?

For me it was "Lyanna in her bed of blood". After reading Catelyn saying she brought forth Rob in her pain and blood, it just clicked.

For me it was a combination of that sentence, the fact that there were three members of the Kingsguard at the Tower of Joy protecting a female Stark, when the only people they should be protecting are Targs, and then it came to me that maybe they were.

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for me it was more neds comments then anything, his response to cat about "he is my blood and thats all you need to know" when ned was told he wanted to join the nightswatch and ned said "its a hard path for the boy...." and adding to that when they found the pups and jon called ned Lord Stark instead of father, all that forshadowing came to my mind the second i read about the toj. So the toj convinced me for sure, and the rest had me thinking all along

I hate george for hiding away howland reed :)

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For me, like Laker, it was "He's my blood" and, even more, the scene in the Wintercrypt when Robert says of Rhaegar "In my dreams I kill him every night. A thousand deaths will still be less than he deserves" and we are told that there's nothing Ned could say to that--Ned, whose beloved dead sister is under discussion.

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This may have been discussed before, and forgive me if it has, but I have a couple of questions for those who do not believe in R+L=J:

If Rhaegar was not concerned, or did not care deeply for Lyanna, why did he have 3 super-important knights (Dayne, Hightower, and Whent) guarding her at the Tower of Joy? Wouldn't they have been of much more use fighting with Rhaegar, or at least guarding the King? Do you deny that Lyanna and Rhaegar were "involved," totally? Or just that they never had a child?

here is my explanation:

i think rhaegar sent lyanna and aegon, accompanied by the 3 KG, down to the TOJ. the KG were there not for lyanna, but the crowned prince.

the promise lyanna asked from ned was to make sure no one knew about aegon and to get him out of westeros. so ned and howland travel to starfell, return dawn, and ned secretly asks ashara to take aegon and flee from westeros perhaps. he picks up jon, and returns to winterfell.

also, i think lyanna did give birth, but with no one to help her, the baby died. she and the baby are buried under winterfell. or, maybe the blood was just her period and there was no child...??

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the second promise was to not tell anyone that she was the first to ever die from her period... :rofl:

seriously though, maybe she didn't want ned to reveal that she and rhaegar had a child, which died, and to bury the kid with her in winterfell.

i'll think on it some more. the theory is still fresh, for me at least. don't know if anyone else has a more refined version though.

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