The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread

[Shewoman]

If there was an Aegon switch--which I doubt--we don't know when it was made. He's the heir to the throne after his father and he's living at court; he can't cease to be seen for weeks on end without people wondering if he's dead. Gregor's not an idiot; it won't help his career as a murderer for hire if he kills the wrong baby. The Targ coloring is distinctive. Gregor doesn't have to be a Maester to be able to recognize it.

Ned asks a question about how he would react to a stranger child who threatened his five children and how Catelyn would react to a child not her own who threatened hers. The situations are parallel; in the first sentence he's clearly thinking about threats to HIS children and how he would react. If Jon is his son, it's interesting that he specifically does not include his name there. Catelyn isn't mentioned in that sentence. The similar question about her comes after that. Jon is the only child in the quote whom Ned does not claim.

[The Wolf Maid]

I've never been much of a believer of the Aegon baby switch.

Though I have to ask, what did Baby Aegon look like? Not all Targayens pick up the distinct coloring, and the last time Targaryens mated with Dorne (with King Daeron), some of his sons and their sons had the Dornish coloring. Baelor Breakspear and Daeron (the Drunk) had the dornish coloring.

So it is entirely possible Aegon didn't have the silver-gold hair but insted had Elia's coloring, making it possibletodo the switch.

[Shewoman]

Martin has said in one of the Thus Spake Martin emails that Aegon had the Targaryen coloring.

[The Wolf Maid]

Martin has said in one of the Thus Spake Martin emails that Aegon had the Targaryen coloring.

Ah. Well, his head's been dashed against the wall, he's all blood and pulp by then, so hard to tell the coloring if he has the silver hair or not, as it's been dyed red with blood.

Clegane wouldn't have cared to check if baby was Aegon or a switch, I think. He would have just ripped Aegon from his mother's arms and smashed him.

Though not a believer of the Aegon switch, it's possible. Maybe they dyed the subsititue baby's hair?

[A wilding]

Our hypothetical conspirators would not have known in advance that Gregor would smash the baby's head against a wall though. As Tywin said, smothering him quietly with a pillow to leave at neater corpse would have been more sensible and could easily have been what ended up happening to him. It is also quite possible that he would not even have been murdered immediately.

[lee1026]

Concur. Also, at the time, everyone thought that Ned Stark is going to be the one that gets to KL first. We don't know what Ned Stark would do with baby Aegon, but immediately dash his head against the wall does not seem in character for him.

[Dothwacky]

I dont believe in a baby switch, I think Aegon got smushed by Gregor. Royally. What I want to know is, how on earth do you dye a kids hair *silver*. If you could do that, I'm sure there'd be more people out there imitating the whole valyrian look.

[The Wolf Maid]

I dont believe in a baby switch, I think Aegon got smushed by Gregor. Royally. What I want to know is, how on earth do you dye a kids hair *silver*. If you could do that, I'm sure there'd be more people out there imitating the whole valyrian look.

That is a major block, isn't it? Which is why I don't believe much in the theory myself (though I play around with it), I always thought Aegon was dead and done for, but Martin's being coy about him, so it does give rise to the possibility he's not quite finished with Aegon yet.

(and I think we've managed to threadjack this with all the baby Aegon talk)

Going back to the R + L = Jon, I was wondering if anyone could direct me to the text confirming that Lyanna was one of Elia's ladies. Someone mentioned this before, but I don't recall reading it in the books.

[Shewoman]

Not Lyanna! Ashara. It's in the "Thus Spake Martin" email collection.

[Targ loyalist]

Once I came with one semi-finished theory that Rhaegar and Ashara were lovers,and that Lyanna and maybe Ned were some sort of paravan,but vause of a great lack of evidence or even indications I never thought much seriously about it...as to Jon's parentage,Paris said that Martin wouldnt do such obviously thing,but she maybe just trying to confuse us.Another thing,far more interesting is once they asked GRRM about Jon's parentage,indicating on R+L=J,he said that Jon's parentage is far more complicated,so he didnt said that R+L=J isnt true,nor is it true,but he said it is FAR MORE complicated(sorry but I cant remember where and when exactly I heard this,but sure some of the board hardcore would know it)

[The Wolf Maid]

Not Lyanna! Ashara. It's in the "Thus Spake Martin" email collection.

Ah. I knew Ashara was one of Elia's ladies, but someone mentioned Lyanna was, too. I must have gotten them confused.

[一方通行]

how on earth do you dye a kids hair *silver*

molten silver+head?

[Dothwacky]

molten silver+head?

Ah, the beggar king look. Very in. Very now. Perhaps Drogo is one step ahead in terms of Gregor's fashion thinking. Who knows

[Miriamele]

One year old babies often have little hair. So, I suppose a light blond child would be good. And other people in Westeros, like the Dayne have Targaryen colouring. There is also a bastard of some lord in AFFC, I don't remember his name, who has silver hair. Cersei even thinks that from far he looks like Raegar. That family could have had other bastards with similar colours.

And dying a baby's hair is also possible. For example lemon juice makes the hair much lighter. I know at least two girls with light or medium brown hair who use it, and they look like natural blonds. So I suppose blond hair would become very light from it. Camomile is also used to colour the hair. As far as I know it gives a different shade to blond hair.

[laker]

Just caught a little thing of intrest in AFFC, in jons pov where he about to climb the wall he makes a comment about how stuborn greitte is, and coments the only one worse is arya, then thinks to himself, is she still my sister, was she ever my sister.

Just thought its just another little thing stuck in there that supports R=L=J, this is my fourth reread and first time i caught onto that line, just thought it was intresting.

[Mister Manticore]

I think you mean ASOS, since there are no POVs for Jon in AFFC.

[laker]

yes i did and thank you, just started rereading AFFC and must just be stuck in my head

[Dothwacky]

Miriamele, I understand the dying process, but my point is the targs are supposed to have the whole otherworldy look going for them, and while it would be nice if aegon is still kicking around, light blonde from camomile or another plant extract is not silver gold. And yes there are the daynes and velaryons etc, but if Gregor smashed their kid, there'd be a hint of it. (im stopping now cos im threadjacking )

nice catch laker :cool:

[Miriamele]

We don't actually know how different is the Targs' silver gold hair from a normal blond, they may be able to reproduce it with some colouring. And a baby's hair is usually not like it will be when it's older. Aegon might just have had a really pale blond hair. And possibly very little. Many babies are almost bald in that age. And the colours really change.

Maybe they didn't even bother change it . They could have just wanted for the substitute to gain some time for those who took the real child away. Maybe they just thought that noone will have the time in the hours or days after the siege to have a closer look at the child. After all, a lot of people woud have simply assumed that the baby in Aegon's room would be Aegon without questioning it. People often tend to see or hear what they expect.

[Ricky05301986]

I'm actually a supporter of the L+R=J theory; there are just too many hints to ignore but I won't get into that and risk a flame war. I actually wanted to pose a question (not sure if this is the proper thread but whatever):

Would anyone be more surprised if Jon was Benjen's son instead of Eddard's and/or Lyanna's?

It seems that the majority of ASoIaF readers subscribe to the L+R=J theory; so when it actually happens and becomes canon, the shock factor may have less of an impact than the author expected. Speaking for my self, I would like to see this particular revelation come to fruition but I think there may be some would be disappointed due to the predictability. But things would certainly be different if Benjen was thrown into the equation... I'm curious about how everyone would react to this.