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Angalin

R+L=J v.41

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Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread” (thread one)

Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread” (thread two)

The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon thread (Part III)” (thread three)

The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon thread (Part IV)” (thread four)

The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread (Part V)” (thread five)

The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread (Part VI)” (thread six)

The Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon Thread Part VII” (thread seven)

The Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon thread, Part VIII” (thread eight)

The Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon thread, Part IX” (thread nine)

The Rhaegar + Lyanna =Jon Thread, Part X”(thread ten)

The R+L=J thread, part XI” (thread eleven)

The R+L=J thread, part XII” (thread twelve)

R+L=J Part XXIII” (thread thirteen)

R+L=J Part XXIV” (thread fourteen)

R+L=J XXV” (thread fifteen)

R+L=J v.16” (thread sixteen)

R+L=J v.17” (thread seventeen)

R+L=J v.18” (thread eighteen)

R+L=J v.19” (thread nineteen)

R+L=J v.20” (thread twenty)

R+L=J v.21” (thread twenty-one)

R+L=J v.22” (thread twenty-two)

R+L=J v.22a” (thread 22a)

R+L=J v.23” (thread twenty-three)

R+L=J v.24” (thread twenty-four)

R+L=J v.25” (thread twenty-five)

R+L=J v.26” (thread twenty-six)

R+L=J v.27” (thread twenty-seven)

R+L=J v.28” (thread twenty-eight)

R+L=J v.29” (thread twenty-nine)

R+L=J v.30” (thread thirty)

R+L=J v.31” (thread thirty-one)

R+L=J v.32” (thread thirty-two)

R+L=J #33” (thread thirty-three)

R+L=J v.34” (thread thirty-four)

R+L=J v.35” (thread thirty-five)

R+L=J v.36” (thread thirty-six)

R+L=J v.37” (thread thirty-seven)

R+L=J v.38” (thread thirty-eight)

R+L=J v.39” (thread thirty-nine)

"R+L=J v.40" (thread forty)

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For all guys who are new to this topic.

This post has been made by Doctor Pepper in R+L=J v. 34. Best read it before you start asking: "How can Jon be a Targ if he has a burned hand" or before you come up with "He doesn´t look like a Targaryen. I also recommend reading you the analyses of the links they are great.

Reference guide.

The Tower of the Hand has an excellent analysis of this theory:

Jon Snow's Parents

And Westeros' Citadel also provides a summary:

Jon Snow's Parents

A Wiki of Ice and Fire:

Jon Snow Theories

Frequently Asked Questions:

How can Jon be a Targaryen if he has a burned hand?

Targaryens are not immune to fire. Aerion Brightflame died drinking wildfire. Aegon V and his son Duncan are thought to have died in a fire-related event at Summerhall. Rhaenyra was eaten by Aegon II's dragon, presumably roasted by fire before the dragon took a bite. Viserys died when he was crowned with molten gold. Dany suffered burns from the fire pit incident at the end of A Dance with Dragons. Finally, the author has stated outright that Targaryens are not immune to fire. Jon's burned hand does not mean he is ineligible to be part Targaryen. For more information about the myth of Targ fire immunity, see this thread.

How can Jon be a Targ if he doesn't have silver hair and purple eyes?

Not all Targaryens had the typical Valyrian look. Alysanne had blue eyes. Baelor Breakspear and his son(s) had the Dornish look. Many of the Great Bastards did not have Valyrian features. Jon's own half-sister Rhaenys had her mother's Dornish look.

If Jon isn't Ned's son, then why does he look so much like him?

Much is made over the fact that Arya looks like Lyanna, and Jon looks like Arya. Ned and Lyanna shared similar looks.

How can Jon be half-Targ if he has a direwolf?

Ned's trueborn children are half Stark and half Tully. Being half Tully didn't prevent them from having a direwolf so there is no reason to think being half Targaryen would prevent Jon from having a direwolf. If Lyanna is his mother, then he's still half Stark. Furthermore, there is already a character who is half Targaryen and half blood of the First Men and was a skinchanger: Bloodraven.

Since Rhaegar was already married, wouldn't Jon still be a bastard?

The evidence that Jon is probably the legitimate is that Targaryens have a history of polygamous marriages which makes it a possibility that Rhaegar had two wives. Three Kingsguards were present at the Tower of Joy when Ned arrived. Even after Ned said that Aerys, Rhaegar and Aegon were dead and Viserys had fled to Dragonstone, the KG opted to stay at the TOJ stating they were obeying their Kingsguard vow. The heart of a KG vow is to protect the king. With Aerys, Rhaegar and Aegon dead, the new king would have been Viserys, unless Lyanna's child was legitimate making him the new king of the Targaryen dynasty. For a comprehensive analysis of Jon's legitimacy, see the detailed explanations in the two linked articles.

This theory is too obvious and too many people believe it to be fact. How can it be true?

The theory is not obvious to the majority of readers. Some will get it on first read, most will not. Keep in mind that readers who go to online fan forums, such as this one, represent a very small minority of the ASOIAF readership. Also, A Game of Throneshas been out since 1996. That's more than 15 years of readers being able to piece together this mystery.

Why doesn't Ned ever think about Lyanna being Jon's mother?

Ned doesn't think about anyone being his mother. He says the name 'Wylla' to Robert, but does not actively think that Wylla is the mother. He also doesn't think of Jon as his son. There are numerous mysteries in the series, and Jon's parentage is one of those. If Ned thought about Jon being Lyanna's son, it would not be a mystery.

Why should we care who Jon's parents are? Will Jon care? Who cares if he's legitimate?

Once one accepts that the evidence is conclusive and that Jon's parents are Rhaegar and Lyanna and that he is most probably legitimate, these become the important questions.

Thank you Doctor Pepper this has been really great work!

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I don't know how to get the ball rolling....someone say something to irritate me! :shocked: :lol: ;)

I think R+Catelyn=J because in the show, Jon's mouth is always open, like a fish. That's the true Tully look.

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Indeed. He is a living reminder of her own infidelity. I dare someone to prove me wrong.

The real reason she doesn't want Robb to legitimize him is the fear that he'll get Riverrun when Edmure and her kick the bucket. The River Lords will never accept a bastard ruling over them!

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I think I cracked a pretty big R+L=J clue in this thread: The Moment When All the Smiles Died.

A lot of you have already seen this, and some have even commented, but I think it has a place here in the R+L=J threads. I figure that the beginning of a new version of this thread is a good place to post this. Here it is.

Ned remembered the moment when all the smiles died, when Prince Rhaegar Targaryen urged his horse past his own wife, the Dornish princess Elia Martell, to lay the queen of beauty’s laurel in Lyanna’s lap. He could see it still: a crown of winter roses, blue as frost.

---

When I read this passage, I see an incredibly strong metaphor for the story of Jon Snow's conception. Assuming my interpretation is correct, I believe it constitutes some of the best R+L=J evidence out there. Here's what I mean.

The story of Jon's conception (re: the metaphor) begins when Rhaegar urges his horse past Elia, but I'm not going to start there. I want to start with the last part describing the crown. It's a crown of blue winter roses. This is important to understand because I believe that blue winter roses symbolize Jon Snow. Now, not fundamentally important to the theory, but interesting to note, is that the logical continuation of this metaphor - that is, a crown of blue winter roses - hints at Jon's royal blood and/or his royal future the same way a crown of golden lions would for a Lannister, or a crown of silver trout would for a Tully.

Okay, now back to the beginning. Like I was saying, the 'story' begins when Rhaegar urges his horse past Elia. This act mirrors his later romantic snub of her. In both cases he does so in favor of Lyanna. In other words, he twice chooses Lyanna Stark over his own wife; first when naming the QoLaB at Harrenhal, and then when he makes off with her for the ToJ.

The first choice is made when Rhaegar lays the queen of beauty's laurel in Lyanna's lap. An act which seems to simultaneously predict and confirm R+L=J. The item itself and its placement seem highly suggestive to me. The aforementioned crown of blue winter roses - aka, Jon Snow - is placed in his mother's lap. You guys know where babies come from, right? So if what I've said above is correct, the metaphor seems to say that Rhaegar spurned Elia in favor of Lyanna. He then placed Jon Snow in Lyanna's lap womb.

For bonus points, the description of the crown as a 'laurel' works as a clue that Rhaegar and Lyanna were married. The word laurel literally describes the crown, while it figuratively represents honor. The notion of Rhaegar honoring Lyanna by placing Jon Snow in her lap probably contradicts the idea of Jon's bastardy. If not, giving birth to Jon Snow could turn out to be a tremendous honor, provided his character turns out to be the king/hero/messiah figure he's in line to be. Again, not necessarily of fundamental importance, but something worth noting.

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That's a really interesting analysis. It fits in with the literary style of the story, too. Think of how the men of the Night's Watch said their vows to Jon while circling him; I think GRRM's writing is partly influenced by film and using a visual symbol is true to that.

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That's a really interesting analysis. It fits in with the literary style of the story, too. Think of how the men of the Night's Watch said their vows to Jon while circling him; I think GRRM's writing is partly influenced by film and using a visual symbol is true to that.

Thank you. I completely agree with your visual symbolism point. GRRM's time in TV may very well have influenced him in that respect. BTW, I was picturing the QoLaB scene in my head when I came up with this idea.

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snip

Good add. Just in case any newcomers are unsure, the following quote from the chapter in which Dany enters the House of the Undying is the basis of the identification of Jon with blue winter roses (and thus Lyanna). It's one of the many images with which Dany is bombarded by the Undying.

A blue flower grew from a chink in a wall of ice, and filled the air with sweetness.

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Does anyone else suspect that GRRM threw in the story about Ned and the fisherman's daughter in aDwD just to muddy the water because too many people were figuring out R+L=J?

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Does anyone else suspect that GRRM threw in the story about Ned and the fisherman's daughter in aDwD just to muddy the water because too many people were figuring out R+L=J?

I do wonder who it was for. In one respect it muddies the water, but in another it actually acts as evidence for R+L=J. You've got Ned + Ashara/Wylla/fisherman's daughter on one hand. On the other you have Rhaegar and Lyanna. Adding in the fisherman's daughter story seems to weaken the other Ned+? claims.

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It's kind of amazing how Martin hides these clues regarding Jon and his ultimate purpose and identity within plain sight, but they're very easy to miss if you aren't reading carefully. A laurel of blue roses in Lyanna's lap as being a symbol for Jon, his legitimacy, and his future as a King is an especially potent symbol because the blue winter rose is identifiable (in terms of region) with the North, which is where any reign of Jon's would certainly begin. It's interesting, because a good number of times when R + L = J is brought up, the idea of Jon as the legitimate Targaryen heir springs up with it. Yet it's not because of his Targaryen blood that Jon could potentially become a King, but because of his Stark blood.

And I think GRRM knows he's not really fooling anyone with the fisherman's daughter as a potential red herring. Nothing about it strikes as true and it's easy to see that if Jon was really the son of some fisherman's daughter, Ned would've told him long ago. It doesn't really muddy the waters at all.

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It's kind of amazing how Martin hides these clues regarding Jon and his ultimate purpose and identity within plain sight, but they're very easy to miss if you aren't reading carefully. A laurel of blue roses in Lyanna's lap as being a symbol for Jon, his legitimacy, and his future as a King is an especially potent symbol because the blue winter rose is identifiable (in terms of region) with the North, which is where any reign of Jon's would certainly begin. It's interesting, because a good number of times when R + L = J is brought up, the idea of Jon as the legitimate Targaryen heir springs up with it. Yet it's not because of his Targaryen blood that Jon could potentially become a King, but because of his Stark blood.

<snip>

This is what I've been thinking (and occasionally saying) for a while. I think he's Rhaegar's legitimate son, but I don't see how he'll be able to prove it as of yet. The Stark claim, however, is written on a piece of paper, accompanied by the signatures of King Robb Stark, and several of his lords. That will hold up better than Howland Reed's word, methinks.

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