R+L=J v.41

[Alia of the knife]

How do we get the assumption that the blue rose is a symbol of the North, or Lyanna, or Stark women, or the Starks? Bael's tale is a story of passionate, forbidden, unattainable love, which involves the Starks and a wildling. I would suggest we are reading too much into this, and the blue rose symbolism is tied to the same symbolism associated as it is in our own world of that same unattainable love because it does not exist in nature, except unlike in our world the blue rose exists as a real flower in Westeros. So, what we have in Bael's tale, in the relationship between Lyanna and Rhaegar, and in Daenerys's vision of the blue flower is simply the forbidden and unattainable passion that becomes real. It is not a symbol of the Stark House exclusively, that is the Dire Wolf, but a symbol of what happened in specific instances that could also include ones associated with those outside the Starks. If anything, the vision Daenerys has is simply a foreshadowing of what will be her relationship with Jon. Passionate love that won't work out well for either of them. No happily ever after.

Actually, I don't see any signifigance in the Blue Rose other than what the Author most likely intended to be, and that was a symbol to Dany about who Jon might be.

I was just speaking ot the theory within the context of the theory.

I don't see the Tyrells being anymore than Karmic revenge against Cersei and the Lannisters for all their years of scheming and plotting, certainly not to be the main players in the bloodline of Ice and Fire,.

Though historical analysis is interesting, it's not exact.

I really wish that argument about Lyanna being a valuable hostage was put to eternal sleep. Keeping a hostage if you're not using them makes no sense, and it doesn't require the presence of the KG, either.

Livia

Woops, Livia is correct. It's been many years since I've seen it, but Sian Phillips definitely owned the role of Livia and Chief poisoner of family in a darkly humorous way.

Yeah, Alia, you are totally reading way too much into this blue rose symbolism. Drop it already. :lol:

Excuse me?

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

Excuse me?

While I admit that statement made me double take as well, I have to say in defense of JS it was meant ironically. He's a BIG supporter of all things related to blue rose symbolism ;)

(Being a fan of irony myself, this isn't the first time I've wished we had a better "ironic" emoticon)

[Alia of the knife]

Thats what I thought, lol.

Thank you for clarifying.:)

[Jon Icefyre]

Ha love the talk about the roses. But I would not say Jon is pure Henry Tudor, he has the personality and traits of Ivanhoe, and his lineage is a cross between Henry and Henry's father Edmond. Much like Rhaegar is a cross between Edward of Westminster and his father Henry VI.

If your going by this I would surprised if you thought R+L=J. As both Henry Tudor and Ivanhoe where midling lords, they had much more distant conections to the Crown than a son of Rhaegar would. Henry solidified the Crown by marrying Elizabeth of York (Dany) who actually was a legitamet heir to the throne as her father was the king. Or one of them.

If Martin goes with a similar tree, then Jon would be connected to the Crown by a much more distant relative. Meaning if he Married Dany it would be like 2-3rd cousins. Where as if it is Rhaegar it would be an Aunt marrying her Nephew. And you would figure they would have to wed to solidify the crown and kingdom. Funny how Martin left a perfect opening for Neds Grandfather on his mothers side to be the unnamed son of Aegon the 5th.

And before anyone freaks out and starts typing at me in Caps, yet again. It's only Rhaegar and Lyanna cause it all makes perfect sense, with zero plot holes and they were married, and it was happy, happy love, love, because that is how Martin writes. And their could be no other option other than R+L=J. Even though Ned probably hooked up at Riverrun with Ashara. But what would a young singel woman of court be doing at Riverrun during a wedding that a lot of Lords were attending? Cause that makes no sense. It's not like after Brandon road off Ned, Rob and a lot of other arrived for the wedding, heard the news and freaked out. Maybe someone comforted Ned while his sister had been taken. They get word from the King for the fathers to report, Rik tells Jon to take Ned and Rob back to the Vale to prevent them from getting in trouble. Because they probably wanted to raise hell. When they get back to the Vale a short time later they get news that Neds father and brother are dead along with Jons nephew and Banners and war.

No it's a secret love story and Jon will marry his aunt cause that's what Jon would do, Marry his aunt. A thind cousin no, but an aunt yes. And of course he has to give the Kingdom a Heir so yah, Incest for Jon. Nope no chance it is Ned and Ashara with a distant Targ blood line that has a perfect geneology linage that happens to be sitting right there, Martin just forgot to fill it in. And Martin would never get people thinking it is one thing and then hit them with another. So unlike him. Rhaegar was so great, yes he suffered from depression and bouts of issolation and despondency and had an obssession with the prophecy but hey he would never do anything wrong or stupid cause Martin loves writing perfect Mary Sue characters.

I don't really see where your getting Ned hooking up with Ashara at Riverrun. Why would Ashara be there for Cat's wedding? There's no indication that Cat and Ashara were friends infact I don't think Cat had ever even met Ashara, on top of the fact that there's no suggestion whatsoever that House Dayne and Tully were close at all so explain to me why Ashara would be there? This wasn't a royal wedding where lords and ladies from all over the seven kingdoms would be there in multitued so I don't really see why the Dornish would be at a House Stark and Tully wedding when there is no clue from GRRM whatsoever that Ashara was there. Also even if what your saying about Ned and Ashara were true and that Jon has a distant Targ relative through Ned's mother's line(which I don't think) Jon would still be a bastard giving him no claim to the throne. So unless you think the entire realm would just magically decide to accept Robb's will even though they don't even accept the North as independent nor Robb a true king, I don't really see how this theory works.....

[Cas Stark]

I hope GRRM was only taking the War of the Roses as basic inspiration, otherwise it looks bad for the Starks, since after Henry Tudor took the throne the House of York became one of the royal titles.

[Zupoleon]

I hope GRRM was only taking the War of the Roses as basic inspiration, otherwise it looks bad for the Starks, since after Henry Tudor took the throne the House of York became one of the royal titles.

I highly doubt Martin would just follow the events verbatim.

[Pascha]

First post, I have a few things I'd like to ask that maybe someone can shed some light on.

Re: Ned finding Lyanna, It doesn't make sense to me that he would have found out where she was from Ashara. Didn't he only visit her after killing her brother to give her his sword?

If Raegar told him where she was then why would he go first to KL, then to SE, and finally then to rescue his sister?

Re: Jon and Dany marrying... Hey, I'm all for it, I'd love it, BUT doesn't the IT need an heir? Dany isn't able to have children so how would that work out? Isn't Dany supposed to be the "bride of fire"? Wouldn't marrying Jon make her the bride of ice?

[Queen of Procrastination]

First post, I have a few things I'd like to ask that maybe someone can shed some light on.

Re: Ned finding Lyanna, It doesn't make sense to me that he would have found out where she was from Ashara. Didn't he only visit her after killing her brother to give her his sword?

If Raegar told him where she was then why would he go first to KL, then to SE, and finally then to rescue his sister?

Re: Jon and Dany marrying... Hey, I'm all for it, I'd love it, BUT doesn't the IT need an heir? Dany isn't able to have children so how would that work out? Isn't Dany supposed to be the "bride of fire"? Wouldn't marrying Jon make her the bride of ice?

Welcome!

Well he visited her to give her to give heir to give her Dawn, but GGRM said that she wasn´t nailed down to Starfall. There are somespeculations that the met him, send a raven or a messenger to tell him about Lyanna. Do you think it makes no sense, because she sent him to her brother?

In this case the answer is that she thaught that the KG wouln´t give Ned a fight. Ned tried to get the KG into giving up so maybe he ans Ashara didn´t estimate a fight.

Well all theories about who told Ned are just theories we can´t be as sure about who told Ned as we are about other things. Ned was a very honourful man if Robert would have commaned him to lift the siege he would have done it. Besides Ned new that the war wasn´t over. I agree with you I like this theory, but it´s a bit unlikely, even though I don´t rule it out.

The thing is that GRRM has given us very few information about the events of the TOJ, before and after and we can just speculate who told Ned.

Sorry I don´t have the books with me right now, but there are some lines fom Dany´s las chapter in ADWD from which we dedicate that she had a miscarriage. Mirri Maz Dur told Dany that she is barren, but she isn´t exactly a trustworthy source. She could have just told it Dany to hurt her.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

First post, I have a few things I'd like to ask that maybe someone can shed some light on.

Re: Ned finding Lyanna, It doesn't make sense to me that he would have found out where she was from Ashara. Didn't he only visit her after killing her brother to give her his sword?

If Raegar told him where she was then why would he go first to KL, then to SE, and finally then to rescue his sister?

Re: Jon and Dany marrying... Hey, I'm all for it, I'd love it, BUT doesn't the IT need an heir? Dany isn't able to have children so how would that work out? Isn't Dany supposed to be the "bride of fire"? Wouldn't marrying Jon make her the bride of ice?

Hi and welcome! :)

I'm sure many of us will reply with answers to your questions, so I'll try to be concise with my take.

Regarding Ashara, there is a well known SSM wherein GRRM makes it plain that her movements during the Rebellion aren't necessarily known to us

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Chronology

also in that same quote you'll find the information about when Jon was born.

If Rhaegar was the source it supports the theory that Ned didn't necessarily think his sister was in need of immediate "rescue" Also, remember Ned's honor and that he was one of the key commanders of the Rebellion. His sense of duty would require him to put his personal concerns on a back burner.

As far as Dany's ability to have children, most people point to her final POV chapter in ADwD as evidence that she may have actually conceived a child with Daario.

Finally, remember that if R+L=J, then Jon is Ice AND Fire ;)

ETA- Ninja'd by another Lady :)

[J. Stargaryen]

While I admit that statement made me double take as well, I have to say in defense of JS it was meant ironically. He's a BIG supporter of all things related to blue rose symbolism ;)

(Being a fan of irony myself, this isn't the first time I've wished we had a better "ironic" emoticon)

Definitely ironic. Thanks for the assist. :)

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

Definitely ironic. Thanks for the assist. :)

You're welcome to both of you :D

Happy to help avert any bad feelings...

[Stark Born Again]

While I do believe R+L-J and am becoming convinced that it was a legitmate birth (meaning his parents married) I don't believe that Jon and Dany will end up together (unless it's with the sole purpose of fighting the Others). If, imo, they do get together in any other manner then I don't think they will live as ice and fire destroy each other.

Dany does represent fire, not just because of her dragons, but in her actions; as fire when it's not controlled will destroy everything within it's reach and we've seen Dany trying to do 'good' but losing control and destroying the very people/things she's trying to save because she refuses to heed advice (be controlled).

Jon on the other hand, is similiar to ice in that he develops slowly (ice takes a while to form and to spread). He likes to think things through and weigh the pros and cons. Ice is also used to preserve and Jon has saved (preserved) the wildings. In a way, ice has been warged from water.

So, A Song of Ice and Fire could mean a story of Jon and Dany and how they rise to power and which of them will succeed. This is not a 'love story' but a story of humanity with it's strengths and weaknesses.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

While I do believe R+L-J and am becoming convinced that it was a legitmate birth (meaning his parents married) I don't believe that Jon and Dany will end up together (unless it's with the sole purpose of fighting the Others). If, imo, they do get together in any other manner then I don't think they will live as ice and fire destroy each other.

Dany does represent fire, not just because of her dragons, but in her actions; as fire when it's not controlled will destroy everything within it's reach and we've seen Dany trying to do 'good' but losing control and destroying the very people/things she's trying to save because she refuses to heed advice (be controlled).

Jon on the other hand, is similiar to ice in that he develops slowly (ice takes a while to form and to spread). He likes to think things through and weigh the pros and cons. Ice is also used to preserve and Jon has saved (preserved) the wildings. In a way, ice has been warged from water.

So, A Song of Ice and Fire could mean a story of Jon and Dany and how they rise to power and which of them will succeed. This is not a 'love story' but a story of humanity with it's strengths and weaknesses.

But Jon is both ice and fire, unlike Dany.

[Stark Born Again]

But Jon is both ice and fire, unlike Dany.

Jon may be part Targaryan but he's pure ice - he looks like a Stark, acts like a Stark, wants to be a Stark and if it walks like a duck and talks like a duck.....

His hand was burned while fighting the wight so he can obviously be hurt by fire unlike Dany so his 'fire' blood is not very strong. But, all of his actions to date show him to be a true man of the north.

[Jon Icefyre]

Jon may be part Targaryan but he's pure ice - he looks like a Stark, acts like a Stark, wants to be a Stark and if it walks like a duck and talks like a duck.....

His hand was burned while fighting the wight so he can obviously be hurt by fire unlike Dany so his 'fire' blood is not very strong. But, all of his actions to date show him to be a true man of the north.

Oh god you did not just say that.....Prepare to be eatin alive by Apple Martini hahahaha :box:

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Jon may be part Targaryan but he's pure ice - he looks like a Stark, acts like a Stark, wants to be a Stark and if it walks like a duck and talks like a duck.....

Actually I'd argue that he's had a few "waking the dragon" moments. He can have quite the (fiery?) temper.

His hand was burned while fighting the wight so he can obviously be hurt by fire unlike Dany so his 'fire' blood is not very strong. But, all of his actions to date show him to be a true man of the north.

You're laboring under a very sad misconception. I'll give you a hint: Targaryens are not immune to fire, Dany's pyre experience was a one-time freak event, and Dany has BURN SCARS on her hands after the fighting pit scene in ADWD.

[Dr. Pepper]

Jon may be part Targaryan but he's pure ice - he looks like a Stark, acts like a Stark, wants to be a Stark and if it walks like a duck and talks like a duck.....

...might be wearing a duck costume?