R+L=J v.41

[Ygrain]

I can't recall: have we discussed the option that Rhaegar may have blackmailed Aerys to sign a decree that would either legitimize his child with Lyanna (if they weren't married), or confirm their marriage as legal, in exchange for Rhaegar's return and taking over the command? If so, who would be safeguarding the document? And, would Varys know, or would they be able to keep it secret from him?

[J. Stargaryen]

I don't recall that ever being discussed, but I've been here less than a year.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

I can't recall: have we discussed the option that Rhaegar may have blackmailed Aerys to sign a decree that would either legitimize his child with Lyanna (if they weren't married), or confirm their marriage as legal, in exchange for Rhaegar's return and taking over the command? If so, who would be safeguarding the document? And, would Varys know, or would they be able to keep it secret from him?

Might explain Rhaegar's statement to Jamie that things were going to change as he was leaving KL? So we start with a review of who could be holding such a document, right?

[J. Stargaryen]

Is there any reason to think that such a document exists, other than it hasn't been ruled out?

[rystine]

I can't recall: have we discussed the option that Rhaegar may have blackmailed Aerys to sign a decree that would either legitimize his child with Lyanna (if they weren't married), or confirm their marriage as legal, in exchange for Rhaegar's return and taking over the command? If so, who would be safeguarding the document? And, would Varys know, or would they be able to keep it secret from him?

Hmm. . . perhaps Ned could have hidden some sort of decree of legitimacy in Lyanna's crypt? Could that be what Jon keeps dreaming about?

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

Hmm. . . perhaps Ned could have hidden some sort of decree of legitimacy in Lyanna's crypt? Could that be what Jon keeps dreaming about?

That fits with a crackpot theory I've been brewing that it was Rhaegar (at the Trident) who told Ned where to find Lyanna. No idea if that's ever been discussed and it's a very rough idea so far.

[King of Hats]

Hmm. . . perhaps Ned could have hidden some sort of decree of legitimacy in Lyanna's crypt? Could that be what Jon keeps dreaming about?

Ned produced Robert's letter. "Lord Varys, be so kind as to show this to my lady of Lannister."

The eunuch carried the letter to Cersei. The queen glanced at the words. "Protector of the Realm," she read. "Is this meant to be your shield, my lord? A piece of paper?" She ripped the letter in half, ripped the halves in quarters, and let the pieces flutter to the floor.

;)

That fits with a crackpot theory I've been brewing that it was Rhaegar (at the Trident) who told Ned where to find Lyanna. No idea if that's ever been discussed and it's a very rough idea so far.

I like that!...I like the idea that Rhaegar helped in some way....and maybe Arthur Dayne. They certainly seem to be expecting them at the TOJ, though if it were in any way amicable, they probably wouldn;t have killed them.

[J. Stargaryen]

That fits with a crackpot theory I've been brewing that it was Rhaegar (at the Trident) who told Ned where to find Lyanna. No idea if that's ever been discussed and it's a very rough idea so far.

That's interesting, but I think Ned would have mentioned that to the KG at the ToJ.

[WhiteGhost]

Without sounding sanctimonious and high handed, because I certainly don't mean to insult any well meaning and well read people who simply disagree, but many if not most of us are operating under the assumption that R+L=J is true. Given that, for which we have all sighted many textual references and gone to great lengths to prove, why do so many people seem to think that Ashara Dayne is still alive? We hold ourselves to such a high standard for what is at this point a well accepted theory, but many of these same people are convinced Ashara is still alive. Just wondering why since there doesn't seem to be much if any textual evidence to support this.

These are my reasons for thinking Ashara lives:

• It's stated that her body was never recovered.
  
• The comment Cersei made to Eddard, about Ashara killing herself either in grief for the brother Ned killed, or the baby Ned stole.
  
• someone needed to cooperate with Eddard in order for him to find Lyanna.
  
• If she had agreed to allow Eddard to take her child to foster, for whatever reason the child needed to be hidden she would likely also want to disappear.
  
• The appearance of Septa Lemore with Young Griff and co. Tyrion notes the stretch marks from a previous child birth. Would Tyrion have known Ashara by sight?
  

Just spitballing here.

[Ygrain]

Is there any reason to think that such a document exists, other than it hasn't been ruled out?

I'm merely trying to exploit all the options. It is the only way to legitimize Jon other than marriage, and it would make the marriage truly valid without any doubt.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

Ned produced Robert's letter. "Lord Varys, be so kind as to show this to my lady of Lannister."

The eunuch carried the letter to Cersei. The queen glanced at the words. "Protector of the Realm," she read. "Is this meant to be your shield, my lord? A piece of paper?" She ripped the letter in half, ripped the halves in quarters, and let the pieces flutter to the floor.

;)

Lol :D

I like that!...I like the idea that Rhaegar helped in some way....and maybe Arthur Dayne. They certainly seem to be expecting them at the TOJ, though if it were in any way amicable, they probably wouldn;t have killed them.

It started with a review of the timeline and distances. If we assume Lyanna died from complications of childbirth (and I do, that's one thing seems very obvious) Ned had to know exactly where to go to find her or the timeline given does not work.

I made a list of who could have told him (Lyanna, Ashara, Arthur Dayne or other KG, Rhaegar) That's when I realized that the one person who definitely had the opportunity to tell him in person (ie not by raven) was Rhaegar as he lay dying at the Trident, with Lyanna's name "on his lips." What if that was because he was delivering some message to Ned Stark?

I have a more detailed timeline explanation but it's on my computer and I'm using my phone just now. I can post later if there's any interest :)

[J. Stargaryen]

It started with a review of the timeline and distances. If we assume Lyanna died from complications of childbirth (and I do, that's one thing seems very obvious) Ned had to know exactly where to go to find her or the timeline given does not work.

I made a list of who could have told him (Lyanna, Ashara, Arthur Dayne or other KG, Rhaegar) That's when I realized that the one person who definitely had the opportunity to tell him in person (ie not by raven) was Rhaegar as he lay dying at the Trident, with Lyanna's name "on his lips." What if that was because he was delivering some message to Ned Stark?

I have a more detailed timeline explanation but it's on my computer and I'm using my phone just now. I can post later if there's any interest :)

We never really do hear anything about Ned at the Trident, do we? I'd like to read more about this.

[The guy from the Vale]

I can't recall: have we discussed the option that Rhaegar may have blackmailed Aerys to sign a decree that would either legitimize his child with Lyanna (if they weren't married), or confirm their marriage as legal, in exchange for Rhaegar's return and taking over the command? If so, who would be safeguarding the document? And, would Varys know, or would they be able to keep it secret from him?

I don't think this has been discussed or disproven at all in the time I'm here.

However, I doubt Rhaegar would discuss such a thing anywhere near Varys; and since Aerys didn't leave the Red Keep, where Varys was coming and leaving as he wanted, I don't think Rhaegar would have discussed such matters with Aerys. Rather, I think Rhaegar wanted to change things so he himself would be king after the war.

I do think proof of Jon's legitimacy is in the crypts, but my best guess for this proof would be a Targaryen wedding cloak in Lyanna's tomb.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

That's interesting, but I think Ned would have mentioned that to the KG at the ToJ.

I thought of that, but all we have is Ned's fever dream to go by. Maybe he tried and they didn't believe him ("why would Rhaegar send RB's chief lieutenant"?) Maybe he insisted on talking to Lyanna first. At any rate what we have is the very odd exchange between Ned & the KG as relayed in the dream. That exchange seems to me like an example of leitwortstil, which is a literary device using repetition of words or phrases to express an important theme. That theme, as has been discussed here, is most likely that the KG stay with the King, or where the King orders them to stay. Since it's a literary device, and part of a fever dream I don't think we have to assume that was the entirety of their communication.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

Edit: Oops- Duplicate post :(

[J. Stargaryen]

I thought of that, but all we have is Ned's fever dream to go by. Maybe he tried and they didn't believe him ("why would Rhaegar send RB's chief lieutenant"?) Maybe he insisted on talking to Lyanna first. At any rate what we have is the very odd exchange between Ned & the KG as relayed in the dream. That exchange seems to me like an example of leitwortstil, which is a literary device using repetition of words or phrases to express an important theme. That theme, as has been discussed here, is most likely that the KG stay with the King, or where the King orders them to stay. Since it's a literary device, and part of a fever dream I don't think we have to assume that was the entirety of their communication.

I sort of agree with what you're saying, which is why I'm interested to read more about it.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

I don't think this has been discussed or disproven at all in the time I'm here.

However, I doubt Rhaegar would discuss such a thing anywhere near Varys; and since Aerys didn't leave the Red Keep, where Varys was coming and leaving as he wanted, I don't think Rhaegar would have discussed such matters with Aerys. Rather, I think Rhaegar wanted to change things so he himself would be king after the war.

I do think proof of Jon's legitimacy is in the crypts, but my best guess for this proof would be a Targaryen wedding cloak in Lyanna's tomb.

Agreed with all, down to the cloak. I never considered the possibility of an actual document until it was brought up here. But, to be the devil's advocate for a moment, Rhaegar wouldn't necessarily have actually had to discuss anything with Aerys. Simply present a document and an ultimatum and demand a signature.

Then said document is passed by dying Rhaegar to Ned, promises extracted etc. Lyanna would have told Rhaegar her brother was honorable and could be trusted.

On another note- if there was a wedding cloak there was wedding, right?

I get it that a weirwood tree would suffice for Lyanna, but would that work for Rhaegar? I wonder if there isn't a Septon running around who knows more than he lets on. Like drunk Septon Celladar at the Wall?

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

I sort of agree with what you're saying, which is why I'm interested to read more about it.

Thank you! Much better reception than I thought I might get ;)

Now having dropped all of this into the thread, I'm really going to have to get back to it later from my computer- my phone's about to die! :(

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

Okay, I don't think I've ever seen an R+L=J thread quiet for so long. I'm kind of worried :uhoh:

So here is my timeline theory which leads me to the Rhaegar-Ned crackpottery. I'll have to take my responses off the air, since I need to be offline for a bit...

Following the sack of KL Ned, horrified by the murder of innocents, departed “in a red rage” to wrap up the rebellion in the Stormlands, before heading to Dorne to locate his sister. He went first to Storm’s End to lift the siege. At a distance of about 480 miles, we can assume at least a three week journey, possibly closer to four, by an armed expedition traveling at top speed. Assuming the siege was lifted rather quickly and he departed immediately from SE with just six companions traveling at top speed to ToJ, at a distance of 645 miles from SE we must add two more weeks to the elapsed time from the sack.

(for distances and travelling speed I used http://sermountaingoat.co.uk/timeline/info/travel.xls cross referenced to Lands of Ice and Fire map book)

If we take it as fact that Lyanna died of complications from childbirth, which could really only be puerperal fever given the symptoms (fever and possibly bleeding, though the bed of blood could also be symbolic and not affect the “diagnosis”) then the birth must have occurred within 7-10 days of her death. It is just not reasonable to assume she could have survived an infection of that nature longer than that with only medieval type medicine.

(for this I did some pretty intense internet research on puerperal fever, especially as it occurred pre-antibiotics)

Finally we have GRRM’s statement (http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Chronology ) that Jon is 8 or 9 months older than Dany. Since we know Dany was conceived on the night Aerys executed Lord Chelsted, immediately before Rhaella was sent to Dragonstone with Viserys, and shortly before the sack, we have only about 4-5 weeks post Chelsted’s execution for Jon’s birth and 5-6 for Lyanna’s death.

Thus, it is revealed to us that Ned knew exactly where to find Lyanna, because there is simply no time for him to have been conducting a search. He must have either:

1. been informed by Lyanna herself

2. been informed by a third party. Possibilities: Ashara Dayne (as has been discussed here in previous threads), KG- Dayne or Whent or Hightower, an unknown person who had been at ToJ or spoken to someone who had, or Rhaegar himself, who died at the Trident with Lyanna’s name on his lips- could he have been telling Ned where to find her?

3. followed the trail of Ser Gerold Hightower (not entirely unlikely as the white cloak would tend to stand out in people’s memories, but since Hightower left from KL and Ned from SE, this seems unlikely. Their routes would be quite different)

Lyanna would have had to send a raven or messenger, not impossible but unlikely given Ned’s lightning movements across the country.

I think we can rule out #3 for the reasons given above.

That leaves the third party option. I know Ashara is the favored explanation here, but to me it seems like we have to make some leaps of faith for this to be true, although it’s certainly possible if we assume we will be given more information in the future. KG seems unlikely, unless Rhaegar was aware. An unknown operator requires we assume a lot of information that is currently unknown to us, which again is quite possible. But Rhaegar, it strikes me suddenly, is the one person of the third party group whom we currently have evidence to have had access to Ned immediately prior to the events described here. This obviously hinges on the supposition that we are in possession of sufficient facts to draw a conclusion. The Ashara Dayne or unknown third party possibilities, IMHO will require additional textual evidence before they can be considered logically sound.

So that’s the trail of logic that led to this crackpottery. I’m growing fond of it as a theory, having said that it’s just a theory and a nascent one at that.

[Ahead]

I just saw the teaser trailer for season 2 of aGoT in the german free-tv. ( Yes S2 hasn´t aired yet in german free tv :D)

Even if this might not be news to most of the people here, I feelt like sharing this piece of information.

The teaser I saw showed several characters of the show sitting on the iron throne.

There were 3 different shots:

1. Cercei on the throne

2. Dany on the throne

3. Jon Snow on the throne

I thought this collection is kind of odd since Jon doesn´t take part in the game (opposed to Dany and Cercei) neither in season 1 or season 2.

So why would the creators choose to go with Jon? Instead of Rob for instance. Is it just because Jon is a far more detailed character than anyone else from season 1, or is it a reference to jon snows parentage lurking in the back?

Has this been discussed before?