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R+L=J v.41


Angalin

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Sorry: long post.

I think it makes sense because ultimately, as a King, Jon needs a Queen. The most common candidates are generally Val and Dany, for different reasons. Val's usually thought of because of Stannis's offer, but from a political standpoint, she actually brings nothing to the table. Wildlings follow the man, not blood, so marrying Val doesn't get him anything that he wouldn't hypothetically already have. Dany's reasons are usually more mystical and relate back the HotU - and given that at least a portion of the logical connection between Jon, blue roses, and Lyanna originates there - it's hard to refute. Marrying Dany would probably solidify his claim over the IT and end most of the bloodshed in one fell swoop, so that's also an attractive option, but it isn't guaranteed. Margaery is actually one of the best candidates beyond that because of what an alliance between their houses would mean.

I think one of the most appropriate things about the potential of Jon as King is that it stems from a very natural desire of his father's bannermen to be ruled by a Stark. We know that the fact that Jon is/was LC has already reached Braavos, which is actually really strange when you think about it. Sure, the Wall is a wonder of the world, but why would the Braavosi care much about who's in charge of it? Regardless, there's no way the whole North doesn't know by now. Jon's elected at the same age their king was, which speaks well of his abilities - sure, Sam rigged the election, but nobody actually knows that. All of the Northern houses know that Jon's been elevated to having a military command in under a few years time, which certainly makes them intrigued because Robb was an extremely capable military mind. One of my favorite things about the GNC theory is that all throughout aDwD, we see Jon interacting with the same people he'll eventually rule. Alys Karstark, the tribesman.... and he does a splendid job with each of them. I really like the idea that they're scouting him out and trying to take the measure of the man.

The other thing that really strikes me about this whole situation - Jon being KitN and R+L - is that it creates a massive problem for Varys schemes. Varys has essentially taken the stance that the only way to ensure that they have a good king on the throne is to place his own candidate there, Aegon. I won't get in to everything, but that always strikes me as being incredibly, mmm, arrogant. He makes the point that Aegon sees his kingship as his duty and that he knows that he has to put his people first... which is exactly what Jon would do. More to the point, no matter how Aegon has been raised, he undoubtedly sees his leadership as a right. It's the same thing with Daenerys. Varys misses the fact that truly great leaders aren't leaders because of their birth or education, they simply become that thanks to who they are.

WRT to the "knights of summer", that's definitely the biggest issue with a Tyrell-Stark alliance. House Tyrell is definitely a Southron house, but that's not inherently a bad thing and I think Jon could recognize that. He has little patience for fools, but I've never really gotten any hints that the Tyrells are fools at all. I think another potential issue that stands in the way is the fact that the North wants to be independent from the South. They could stomach being one nation if it was a Northman ruling, which it would be, but I do think the tendency would be to try and convince Jon to marry within their lands - so the daughter of someone from the North and the Riverlands.

I absolutely love the GNC idea and I do believe that most of the Northern Lords are indeed plotting to crown Jon. And you have a point about the Braavosi knowing about Jon - it is strange and why would they care? Do they trade with Eastwatch? I can't remember, but even so I don't see how they are interested. But maybe it is because he is so younge?

WRT Vary's schemes: I agree. I like the fact that everyone who has put their claim forward for the IT knew that they had a claim or were in line of succession aren't really thinking about the realm itself or how they can after it, just how they can get it or keep hold of it. Jon on the other hand has absolutely no idea that he can claimit/ does have a claim and so when/if he does get it, he will accept it just like he did when he was elected LC and start trying to restore it straight away.

WRT a marriage of the roses: first of all: sorry in advance if I do sound contradictory - maybe you are winning me over after all?

I just want to say that I love my Tudor history and the War of The Roses and I can see where you are coming from and I do know that it has been said before that GRRM has based parts of the story on WotR I guess I'm still unconvinced that it will end the same.

Let me elaborate :)

For me, I guess it depends on when he has to marry. If it is before the battle against the Others then I can't see him marrying Margaery. Just because I don't think the Tyrells would believe that the Others even exist. Also, to them, Jon is just a bastard, even if he is legitimised or whatever, they may not wish to get into an alliance with him.

I do not think that the Tyrells are Southron fools and I don't think Jon will either, though he may think that some of their bannermen are. But I do think, like most people south of the wall, that unless they see the Others, the will not believe they have come back.

If it is after the battle against the Others then they may not need to marry. It depends on what happens down south. I think the Tyrells will be more interested in (if it happens) the dance with dragons. a lot of the South might burn and they might not be as strong as they once were.

Also, because they are at other ends of Westeros, the Tyrells might back someone else and depending on who that is, they might fall spectacularly or they might come out on top. What I guess I'm saying is that it just depends.

WRT Val: while I agree with you that she doesn't really bring anything I just wanted to throw this out and see how it lands:

While she doesn't actually bring anything -man power, political power etc - if, at the end of it all, Jon still wants to bring the Wildlings into the Realm then the South might need the marriage.

To the South, it will look as though he is bringing the Wildlings in through marriage, even if that is not how the Wildlings work. Looking at it from how Selyse and most of Stannis' Bannermen and even Stannis at first, try to handle the wildlings (by merging by marriage or making a king who they can manipulate etc) they obviously don't understand the "follow the man" thinking that the wildlings have. By marrying Val, it may give the South peace of mind.

This is just an idea though and I'm not 100% convinced myself - just thought of it today.

Anyway, sorry for the long post, hope it makes sense :)

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That fits with a crackpot theory I've been brewing that it was Rhaegar (at the Trident) who told Ned where to find Lyanna. No idea if that's ever been discussed and it's a very rough idea so far.

I've wondered that myself.

Theres a good reason why Ned only took a few men he trusted, rather than an army.

It's as if he knew what he would find, and didn't want any witnesses.

It's possible too that Ashara tipped him off as well, and then her actions led inadvertantly to her own Brothers death- another reason for her to kill herself given her other sorrows.

I'm not sure anymore that Ashara is Lemore.

Ashara could still be alive, but just not Lemore.

It was said by Selmy, that she had dark hair, and Tyrion noted Lemores dark hair didn't he?

Isn't everyone in disguise, with some dying their hair?

Lemore even makes note that "they" aren't the only ones that need to stay hidden, which is a strong argument for her to be Ashara Dayne true, but she says in the context of needing to say hidden, so potentially in disguise herself.

Why would she not dye her hair given the striking appearance she would have made?

I might imagine and speculate that Lemores dark hair is actually not her natural color.

Just a thought, (and I know probably for another thread).

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I think I cracked a pretty big R+L=J clue in this thread: The Moment When All the Smiles Died.

A lot of you have already seen this, and some have even commented, but I think it has a place here in the R+L=J threads. I figure that the beginning of a new version of this thread is a good place to post this. Here it is.

Love your analysis and linkage of symbolisms.

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I've wondered that myself.

Theres a good reason why Ned only took a few men he trusted, rather than an army.

It's as if he knew what he would find, and didn't want any witnesses.

It's possible too that Ashara tipped him off as well, and then her actions led inadvertantly to her own Brothers death- another reason for her to kill herself given her other sorrows.

I'm not sure anymore that Ashara is Lemore.

Ashara could still be alive, but just not Lemore.

It was said by Selmy, that she had dark hair, and Tyrion noted Lemores dark hair didn't he?

Isn't everyone in disguise, with some dying their hair?

Lemore even makes note that "they" aren't the only ones that need to stay hidden, which is a strong argument for her to be Ashara Dayne true, but she says in the context of needing to say hidden, so potentially in disguise herself.

Why would she not dye her hair given the striking appearance she would have made?

I might imagine and speculate that Lemores dark hair is actually not her natural color.

Just a thought, (and I know probably for another thread).

Ashara talk should be in a Ashara thread, but to answer your question, it would be harder to go blonde or red in that time, & she didn't really need to go as far as Aegon & Jon Con, in appearance changing because no one would be looking for her...she just needed to be on the 'down low' is all.
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Sorry: long post.

I absolutely love the GNC idea and I do believe that most of the Northern Lords are indeed plotting to crown Jon. And you have a point about the Braavosi knowing about Jon - it is strange and why would they care? Do they trade with Eastwatch? I can't remember, but even so I don't see how they are interested. But maybe it is because he is so younge?

WRT Vary's schemes: I agree. I like the fact that everyone who has put their claim forward for the IT knew that they had a claim or were in line of succession aren't really thinking about the realm itself or how they can after it, just how they can get it or keep hold of it. Jon on the other hand has absolutely no idea that he can claimit/ does have a claim and so when/if he does get it, he will accept it just like he did when he was elected LC and start trying to restore it straight away.

WRT a marriage of the roses: first of all: sorry in advance if I do sound contradictory - maybe you are winning me over after all?

I just want to say that I love my Tudor history and the War of The Roses and I can see where you are coming from and I do know that it has been said before that GRRM has based parts of the story on WotR I guess I'm still unconvinced that it will end the same.

Let me elaborate :)

For me, I guess it depends on when he has to marry. If it is before the battle against the Others then I can't see him marrying Margaery. Just because I don't think the Tyrells would believe that the Others even exist. Also, to them, Jon is just a bastard, even if he is legitimised or whatever, they may not wish to get into an alliance with him.

I do not think that the Tyrells are Southron fools and I don't think Jon will either, though he may think that some of their bannermen are. But I do think, like most people south of the wall, that unless they see the Others, the will not believe they have come back.

If it is after the battle against the Others then they may not need to marry. It depends on what happens down south. I think the Tyrells will be more interested in (if it happens) the dance with dragons. a lot of the South might burn and they might not be as strong as they once were.

Also, because they are at other ends of Westeros, the Tyrells might back someone else and depending on who that is, they might fall spectacularly or they might come out on top. What I guess I'm saying is that it just depends.

WRT Val: while I agree with you that she doesn't really bring anything I just wanted to throw this out and see how it lands:

While she doesn't actually bring anything -man power, political power etc - if, at the end of it all, Jon still wants to bring the Wildlings into the Realm then the South might need the marriage.

To the South, it will look as though he is bringing the Wildlings in through marriage, even if that is not how the Wildlings work. Looking at it from how Selyse and most of Stannis' Bannermen and even Stannis at first, try to handle the wildlings (by merging by marriage or making a king who they can manipulate etc) they obviously don't understand the "follow the man" thinking that the wildlings have. By marrying Val, it may give the South peace of mind.

This is just an idea though and I'm not 100% convinced myself - just thought of it today.

Anyway, sorry for the long post, hope it makes sense :)

I actually know very little about war of the roses, so I'm mostly speaking in terms of hypotheticals and logistics. And while I think a Tyrell-Stark alliance would be cool, I'm also a realist and find the actual probability of this happening to be very low. There are too many variables to really account for when there doesn't really exist any textual basis for the idea. I think an alliance would work and might be a potential way to mend the wound of the realm, but it isn't necessary for the good of the people, either.

In terms of marriages, there's usually one of two ways it's going to go: either Jon marries one of his bannerman's daughters to help secure the north or he marries an outsider to bring stability to the realm. Val is definitely a candidate for that. I didn't mean to discount her because I do think she'd be a great match for Jon who's half-wildling in his own way as it is. Southron candidates would be limited to Dany, Marg, and Arianne I think, while the standout northern choices might be one of the Manderlys or the Mormonts. I'd actually liked his interactions with Alys, so it's a pity she's already married to Sigorn. Either way, Jon's essentially forced in to a political marriage once he accepts the crown.

GNC is one of my favorite theories and I feel fairly convinced of its legitimacy to some extent. Now that Jon is confirmed Robb's heir, it's only a matter of time before they come calling. I love Rickon, but a boy can't be a king and they need one if they want to continue to fight.

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I actually know very little about war of the roses, so I'm mostly speaking in terms of hypotheticals and logistics. And while I think a Tyrell-Stark alliance would be cool, I'm also a realist and find the actual probability of this happening to be very low. There are too many variables to really account for when there doesn't really exist any textual basis for the idea. I think an alliance would work and might be a potential way to mend the wound of the realm, but it isn't necessary for the good of the people, either.

In terms of marriages, there's usually one of two ways it's going to go: either Jon marries one of his bannerman's daughters to help secure the north or he marries an outsider to bring stability to the realm. Val is definitely a candidate for that. I didn't mean to discount her because I do think she'd be a great match for Jon who's half-wildling in his own way as it is. Southron candidates would be limited to Dany, Marg, and Arianne I think, while the standout northern choices might be one of the Manderlys or the Mormonts. I'd actually liked his interactions with Alys, so it's a pity she's already married to Sigorn. Either way, Jon's essentially forced in to a political marriage once he accepts the crown.

GNC is one of my favorite theories and I feel fairly convinced of its legitimacy to some extent. Now that Jon is confirmed Robb's heir, it's only a matter of time before they come calling. I love Rickon, but a boy can't be a king and they need one if they want to continue to fight.

I agree.

I haven't read any Tudor history in awhile, so I am a bit rusty on it, but it is one of my favourite times in history.

And while I am starting to like the idea of a Tyrell-Stark alliance I still find it hard to see happening atm. Like you said, there are too many variables. And even though we are this fair in the story, I guess it is too soon to really tell what will happen. Which I love but equally find frustrating.

I like Val and Alys too (and it is a pitty Alys is married) and I do believe he will be forced to marry someone and that he will make the right decision (I don't think anyone can bully Jon to do anything he doesn't think is right).

And on Jon as a wildling, I think he is getting there: "We'll make a wildling of you yet, boy". Tormund

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This is actually a highly intelligent post, but I disagree. Jon is dead, warged into Ghost. He meets with WargArya at the Riverlands. The wolf-pack lays siege to Winterfell. Ramsay kills his own father and proclaims himself King of the North. He gets murdered badly by Stannis. Jon wargs into Aegon, then marries Daenarys. That's how it works out.

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<snip>

The travel time does lead one to believe that someone told Ned pretty much exactly where the ToJ was. I agree with that. Travel times in the story have been fudged on more than one occasion, so it's not completely solid evidence. Still though, I think we can rule out the idea that Ned went 'searching' for Lyanna even if we can't be very sure about the exact travel times; someone told himf where she was.

I am a bit confused as to how you think Arthur Dayne or Gerold Hightower would have notified Ned of the location. Dayne and Whent were with Rhaegar when he abducted Lyanna, - apparently never leaving her side - and Hightower was at the ToJ from shortly before Rhaegar returned to KL. In fact, he was the one who was dispatched to recall Rhaegar to KL. I think we can rule them out, unless there is something I'm missing.

With Rhaegar, I tend to think that Robert would have made sure he was dead before he was done swinging he was war hammer, but the truth is that we've only been given glimpses into that moment. And of course, Robert was quite injured himself. This Rhaegar idea is one that I haven't seen before, and he is certainly one of the people who knew the location of the ToJ. Need more info, George!

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This is actually a highly intelligent post, but I disagree. Jon is dead, warged into Ghost. He meets with WargArya at the Riverlands. The wolf-pack lays siege to Winterfell. Ramsay kills his own father and proclaims himself King of the North. He gets murdered badly by Stannis. Jon wargs into Aegon, then marries Daenarys. That's how it works out.

The story won't work with Jon dead. If Jon was dead, then I can't see why there would be a cliffhanger between the books. Since when do cliffhangers get resolved with, "And the hero died!"?

Jon is the one driving the plot with the Others and the Wall. It's his uncle that has died, his family that has been exiled from the North, his journey of being a boy becoming a man. It can't survive without him and no other character has the same bond with the audience that we'd care to read if he has died.

Jon isn't dead, I just can't see that happening.

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<snip>

WRT a marriage of the roses: first of all: sorry in advance if I do sound contradictory - maybe you are winning me over after all?

I just want to say that I love my Tudor history and the War of The Roses and I can see where you are coming from and I do know that it has been said before that GRRM has based parts of the story on WotR I guess I'm still unconvinced that it will end the same.

Let me elaborate :)

For me, I guess it depends on when he has to marry. If it is before the battle against the Others then I can't see him marrying Margaery. Just because I don't think the Tyrells would believe that the Others even exist. Also, to them, Jon is just a bastard, even if he is legitimised or whatever, they may not wish to get into an alliance with him.

I do not think that the Tyrells are Southron fools and I don't think Jon will either, though he may think that some of their bannermen are. But I do think, like most people south of the wall, that unless they see the Others, the will not believe they have come back.

If it is after the battle against the Others then they may not need to marry. It depends on what happens down south. I think the Tyrells will be more interested in (if it happens) the dance with dragons. a lot of the South might burn and they might not be as strong as they once were.

Also, because they are at other ends of Westeros, the Tyrells might back someone else and depending on who that is, they might fall spectacularly or they might come out on top. What I guess I'm saying is that it just depends.

<snip>

WRT the bold: that's really the big assumption. Does GRRM intend to model the end of the 'game of thrones' portion of the story on the WotR? If he does, I think Jon + Margaery is the best bet, and I think the blue and golden roses will even play into it. However, he may have something entirely different in mind for the end of the story. Maybe the Others will win, and wipe out the humans. Maybe Jon will be resurrected with bright blue eyes, to fight R'hllor's champion Dany. Maybe Jon will be Dany's Nissa Nissa, instead of the other way around. Yes, I've actually thought about that. :) Lots of possibilities. I don't pretend to know which one GRRM will choose. I'll I'm saying is that if the ending is modeled on the WotR, I have a theory that fits quite nicely.

--<--<-{(@) (@)}->-->--

;)

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Jon is physically dead.. GRRM is sadistic enough to do that. But he is not actually dead. He has warged into Ghost. He doesn't feel the fourth knife blow, right? It's because he doesn't die. GRRM is evidently influenced by Frank Herbert and Mervyn Peake, both completely sociopathic writers. Also Shakespeare, who is the same. But jon is not dead. It makes sense in the series that Jon (L and r equals J) marries Dany. Ice and Fire.

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WRT the bold: that's really the big assumption. Does GRRM intend to model the end of the 'game of thrones' portion of the story on the WotR? If he does, I think Jon + Margaery is the best bet, and I think the blue and golden roses will even play into it. However, he may have something entirely different in mind for the end of the story. Maybe the Others will win, and wipe out the humans. Maybe Jon will be resurrected with bright blue eyes, to fight R'hllor's champion Dany. Maybe Jon will be Dany's Nissa Nissa, instead of the other way around. Yes, I've actually thought about that. :) Lots of possibilities. I don't pretend to know which one GRRM will choose. I'll I'm saying is that if the ending is modeled on the WotR, I have a theory that fits quite nicely.

--<--<-{(@) (@)}->-->--

;)

Sorry, I wasn't meaning to assume that GRRM will make the ending like tWotR, just that I'm not convinced at the moment that it will end the same way, in regards to marriges.

It's not that I don't think it's a good idea or anything, I would probably love it if it does, just think that too much has to happen first before Jon and Margaery (or any Tyrell) can actually meet each other and get married.

And Jon as Dany's Nissa Nissa, hey? That's an interesting idea

:)

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This is actually a highly intelligent post, but I disagree. Jon is dead, warged into Ghost. He meets with WargArya at the Riverlands. The wolf-pack lays siege to Winterfell. Ramsay kills his own father and proclaims himself King of the North. He gets murdered badly by Stannis. Jon wargs into Aegon, then marries Daenarys. That's how it works out.

Thank god none of this will ever happend.

Anyways I liked the post about Jon and Margaery. Seems odd that Jon would leave out the Starks direwolf from his new sigil tho.

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Sorry, I wasn't meaning to assume that GRRM will make the ending like tWotR, just that I'm not convinced at the moment that it will end the same way, in regards to marriges.

It's not that I don't think it's a good idea or anything, I would probably love it if it does, just think that too much has to happen first before Jon and Margaery (or any Tyrell) can actually meet each other and get married.

And Jon as Dany's Nissa Nissa, hey? That's an interesting idea

:)

Right, I understood that. What I meant to communicate was that the biggest hurdle for my J+M theory is the assumption that GRRM intends to model the end of the series - at least the end of the game of thrones portion - after the WotR. So I think we're in agreement on that part. At this point, there's not really any telling how he intends to wrap up the story.

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Thank god none of this will ever happend.

Anyways I liked the post about Jon and Margaery. Seems odd that Jon would leave out the Starks direwolf from his new sigil tho.

Thanks. While a blue winter rose sigil isn't a Stark direwolf, it also isn't the Targaryen three headed dragon. Then there is the possibility that you have Rickon eventually installed as the Lord of Winterfell, which would see him flying the Stark sigil. So maybe Jon's sigil is reflective of the Stark's of KL.

It seems to me that the Starks are identified as wolves. You have the Wild Wolf Brandon Stark, Ned is the Quiet Wolf, Benjen the Wolf Pup, Lyanna the Wolf Maid in the Knight of the Laughing Tree story. Then Robb is known as the Young Wolf, Bran the Winged Wolf. No one ever thinks to give Jon one of these names, not even the Bastard Wolf. What that tells me is that he's not a wolf, metaphorically speaking. Nor is he a dragon, BTW. However, at one point, he is identified as a 'blue flower'; aka, blue winter rose. As I said earlier when I was channeling show-Margaery; your sigil is your metaphor and your metaphor is your sigil. If Jon's metaphor is the blue winter rose, then I think there is a good chance his sigil will be, too. That is, if/when he gets one. Of course I could be wrong, but I'm just trying to follow the clues.

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Right, I understood that. What I meant to communicate was that the biggest hurdle for my J+M theory is the assumption that GRRM intends to model the end of the series - at least the end of the game of thrones portion - after the WotR. So I think we're in agreement on that part. At this point, there's not really any telling how he intends to wrap up the story.

Oh O.K, I think I understand you a bit better now, LOL, sorry :)

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