R+L=J v.41

[Techelles]

Oh, I've seen a few posters whose water seemed pretty muddied... :lol:

All of you make excellent points, though. The story is obviously false to people who have bothered to think through the timeline, etc., but I wonder how many readers really have. I also really like the idea that it can be taken as evidence against Ned being Jon's father. And then there's the simple function of reminding people that Jon's parentage remains a significant unsolved mystery. It was over a decade between aDwD and aSoS, after all (offhand I don't remember any mention of Jon's parentage in aFfC). So it seems to me the purpose of the story is three-fold, and which one hits you when you're reading it for the first time just depends on how casual a reader you are.

[J. Stargaryen]

One possible interesting Jon-blue rose metaphor I found not too long ago:

Ned remembered the way she had smiled then, how tightly her fingers had clutched

his as she gave up her hold on life, the rose petals spilling from her palm, dead and black.

Jon, the rose petals, is both (presumably) dead and black (Night's Watch) at the end of ADWD. It's maybe a stretch at this point, but something to look back on when we find out if he really did die at the end of ADWD.

[Addam of Hull]

This is what I've been thinking (and occasionally saying) for a while. I think he's Rhaegar's legitimate son, but I don't see how he'll be able to prove it as of yet. The Stark claim, however, is written on a piece of paper, accompanied by the signatures of King Robb Stark, and several of his lords. That will hold up better than Howland Reed's word, methinks.

I think everything has been building to that for a long while now. It's interesting because at the end of aSoS, most of us assumed that he'd cemented himself in to the Night's Watch rather permanently. He passed up Stannis's offer and became Lord Commander of the Night's Watch, which essentially seemed like the final nail in his coffin as a Sworn Brother. Martin utterly reversed that in aDwD because essentially, Jon spends the entire book wanting to protect the realm, but constantly being restrained by the very institution that was suppose to fulfill that purpose and at the very end, he specifically says that he no longer needs Marsh and his men. While that can be read as being specific to Bowen, I think it tends to be more of generalized thought that he doesn't need the Watch and its antiquated ways and narrow-minded thoughts any longer. It certainly gets him in trouble, but the point is that Jon going into tWoW is far more likely understand that becoming King in the North is the best way for him to protect the realm and fight the Others.

Being the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna is probably a much more personal thing, anyway. Proving the claim would be difficult, but I don't think he needs to. Finding out who his parents are and why Ned couldn't tell him does far more for him as a person than anything else. While there are other potential implication (AAR, tPtwP, etcetera) Jon's parentage is linked to his sense of belonging and identity.

[J. Stargaryen]

I think everything has been building to that for a long while now. It's interesting because at the end of aSoS, most of us assumed that he'd cemented himself in to the Night's Watch rather permanently. He passed up Stannis's offer and became Lord Commander of the Night's Watch, which essentially seemed like the final nail in his coffin as a Sworn Brother. Martin utterly reversed that in aDwD because essentially, Jon spends the entire book wanting to protect the realm, but constantly being restrained by the very institution that was suppose to fulfill that purpose and at the very end, he specifically says that he no longer needs Marsh and his men. While that can be read as being specific to Bowen, I think it tends to be more of generalized thought that he doesn't need the Watch and its antiquated ways and narrow-minded thoughts any longer. It certainly gets him in trouble, but the point is that Jon going into tWoW is far more likely understand that becoming King in the North is the best way for him to protect the realm and fight the Others.

Being the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna is probably a much more personal thing, anyway. Proving the claim would be difficult, but I don't think he needs to. Finding out who his parents are and why Ned couldn't tell him does far more for him as a person than anything else. While there are other potential implication (AAR, tPtwP, etcetera) Jon's parentage is linked to his sense of belonging and identity.

Well said. We agree on so much that I wonder what you think of Jon and his blue rose marrying Margaery Tyrell and her golden rose to reunite the kingdom under a new sigil*, a la the red and white Tudor rose.

*blue and golden rose, or blue rose on a golden background, etc.

[Greymoon]

Just to pick at lost battles.... Jon could have been legetimized in a writting, polygamy doesn't need to be involved...

Am I annoying you yet? ;)

just teasing obvioulsy.

[The guy from the Vale]

This is what I've been thinking (and occasionally saying) for a while. I think he's Rhaegar's legitimate son, but I don't see how he'll be able to prove it as of yet. The Stark claim, however, is written on a piece of paper, accompanied by the signatures of King Robb Stark, and several of his lords. That will hold up better than Howland Reed's word, methinks.

I agree that if Jon becomes king, R+L=J won't be the primary reason for it. Being KitN while also being related to Dany (and thought to be related to fAegon) and on reasonably good terms with Stannis will mean that Jon might be the ultimate compromise candidate for the various factions. I sometimes wonder if the election for Lord Commander was some kind of foreshadowing how Jon will gain the throne, ultimately - with Cotter Pyke/Dany and Denys Mallister/Stannis hating each other's guts until some junior Maester (Sam/the new Grand Maester?) arranges a compromise behind Jon's back.

[Techelles]

I think everything has been building to that for a long while now. It's interesting because at the end of aSoS, most of us assumed that he'd cemented himself in to the Night's Watch rather permanently. He passed up Stannis's offer and became Lord Commander of the Night's Watch, which essentially seemed like the final nail in his coffin as a Sworn Brother. Martin utterly reversed that in aDwD because essentially, Jon spends the entire book wanting to protect the realm, but constantly being restrained by the very institution that was suppose to fulfill that purpose and at the very end, he specifically says that he no longer needs Marsh and his men. While that can be read as being specific to Bowen, I think it tends to be more of generalized thought that he doesn't need the Watch and its antiquated ways and narrow-minded thoughts any longer. It certainly gets him in trouble, but the point is that Jon going into tWoW is far more likely understand that becoming King in the North is the best way for him to protect the realm and fight the Others.

Indeed. When Jon wakes up, he's got a hell of a decision to make, and I definitely think he'll decide in favor of the most effective way to continue the fight against the Others. In fact, I think that GRRM might sort of make the decision for him, because I expect the NW as an institution to be moot very soon. If the Others attack the Wall while Jon is out, there's no way it will hold -- not with the Wildlinds and the Watch at each others' throats, which seems inevitable. If everyone there scatters south across the north, then unifying the north will be Jon's only hope for both protecting the realm and regrouping the NW (if not its men, at least its ethos).

Being the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna is probably a much more personal thing, anyway. Proving the claim would be difficult, but I don't think he needs to. Finding out who his parents are and why Ned couldn't tell him does far more for him as a person than anything else. While there are other potential implication (AAR, tPtwP, etcetera) Jon's parentage is linked to his sense of belonging and identity.

Yeah, I don't think Jon will use R+L=J to make a grab for the IT; his fight is in the north. I think its most tangible effect will be the way it changes how other people look at him. And I think people will accept R+L=J much more readily if Jon is not the one pushing the matter. Whether this leads people to offer him the IT in the end (if he's still alive after all the fighting), I can't say.

[Addam of Hull]

Well said. We agree on so much that I wonder what you think of Jon and his blue rose marrying Margaery Tyrell and her golden rose to reunite the kingdom under a new sigil*, a la the red and white Tudor rose.

*blue and golden rose, or blue rose on a golden background, etc.

It'd be an interesting thing to have happen. Ultimately, if Jon takes up Robb's crown, which seems likely, he has a few problems to deal with. While the better part of the Lannister forces have been exhausted, both Aegon and eventually Dany are sure to stake a claim in the Iron Throne and neither of them is going to be okay with Jon taking away half the Kingdom. We know the Tyrells want to remain in power and they have no real claim to any throne on their own - House Gardner ruled as Kings before Aegon came - so with Lannisters near spent, they need to find a new way to stay in power. Conveniently, the Reach has suffered very few loses in the War and while they aren't as rich as the Lannisters, they have both wealth and food in abundance. The fact that the North is near as spent as the Lannisters is undeniable. Jon can bolster his forces with the Wildlings - and he would, I'm sure - but the North has always had issues feeding itself, especially in the Winter. An alliance between House Tyrell and House Stark would be really beneficial to both parties. This is also one of the ways that Jon's heritage as the son of Rhaegar would come in handy. The Tyrells were loyal to the Targaryens before. If I were in their shows, I'd find Jon - who at least grew up in Westeros - far more palletable than either Aegon or Dany, who are virtual strangers.

Wrt Margaery and Jon specifically, I think the most amusing thing about that situation is the fact that Jon was sworn to remain chaste but didn't, while Margaery married thrice and is ostensibly still a virgin. It would be a good match, though, because we know she's at least fairly politically savvy. Jon isn't terrible, but it's obvious that he's more of an idealist and warrior than a politician. I'm partially amused, though, since Renly originally hoped to pass her off as a young Lyanna to Robert and given Jon's mother... well, it's funny.

I think ultimately Jon needs to make an alliance with one of the southron houses. Dorne seems too willing to attach their wagon to either Dany or Aegon and assuming R + L = J, I'm not sure how they'd feel about an alliance with him. The Vale is a wildcard thanks to Petyr, but if it was up to Sansa, I'm sure they'd link up without question in support of him. The Reach actually seems like a really viable option and I think the only issue that could stand in the way of it is the slight cultural divide between north and south. Jon especially has little patience for "Southron fools" and iirc, Margaery liked having a group surrounding her at court, so that could be an issue. But with the Tyrells so heavily involved at KL (and it honestly feels like they'll be running things before long), a Tyrell-Stark marriage might be the best way to mend the realm.

[J. Stargaryen]

I agree that if Jon becomes king, R+L=J won't be the primary reason for it. Being KitN while also being related to Dany (and thought to be related to fAegon) and on reasonably good terms with Stannis will mean that Jon might be the ultimate compromise candidate for the various factions. I sometimes wonder if the election for Lord Commander was some kind of foreshadowing how Jon will gain the throne, ultimately - with Cotter Pyke/Dany and Denys Mallister/Stannis hating each other's guts until some junior Maester (Sam/the new Grand Maester?) arranges a compromise behind Jon's back.

I've had the same thought. Though, I do wonder if he'll be as much of a compromise candidate. It might just be that he brings the most to the table. You know, the northern half of the kingdom. ;) Then again, I could see the Tyrells pushing for Willas to be the king (+ Sansa?), but then compromising on Jon as king with Margaery as his queen. So yeah, the compromise thing has definite chances of playing out in my own theory, let alone all of the other possibilities. Good call.

Oh, Samwell is going to be a maester you say? ::cough:: Small Council ::cough::

[The Killer Snark]

I don't think Martin is going to prove this. I think it's one of those things that is just obvious, like Prince Farad'n being blatantly the son of Feyd-Rautha Harkonnen in Children of Dune. He's telegraphed enough hints already that he trusts people have worked it out. In my opinion, it could swing in two directions. Jon could very possibly be dead, though I don't think so. The whole Lyanna/Rhaegar thing could have just been a red herring, intended to make us think that Jon is less disposable than he is. I hope not. It was only my surmise his apparent death was a red herring that stopped me throwing the book across the room.

[Addam of Hull]

Indeed. When Jon wakes up, he's got a hell of a decision to make, and I definitely think he'll decide in favor of the most effective way to continue the fight against the Others. In fact, I think that GRRM might sort of make the decision for him, because I expect the NW as an institution to be moot very soon. If the Others attack the Wall while Jon is out, there's no way it will hold -- not with the Wildlinds and the Watch at each others' throats, which seems inevitable. If everyone there scatters south across the north, then unifying the north will be Jon's only hope for both protecting the realm and regrouping the NW (if not its men, at least its ethos).

Yeah, I don't think Jon will use R+L=J to make a grab for the IT; his fight is in the north. I think its most tangible effect will be the way it changes how other people look at him. And I think people will accept R+L=J much more readily if Jon is not the one pushing the matter. Whether this leads people to offer him the IT in the end (if he's still alive after all the fighting), I can't say.

TBH, I feel like Jon's already made his decision regarding the Watch. He's done everything he can to try and repair it, but it's basically being a stubborn mule and digging its heals in, refusing to budge. He talks about whether he's oathbreaking in his thoughts, but his resolve to accept that this is what he has to do is undeniable. Thanks to Qhorin, Jon has come to an understanding that when he swore to serve and protect the realm, that's exactly what he swore to do. The whole meaning of the oath hinges around that. Unlike his Brothers, he's empowered by that realization - the actual words and traditions don't matter near as much as action does. It's that idea that's at the heart of his aDwD self. And it's in that regard that the traditions of the NW hold him down because they attempt to restrict him from doing just that. Discarding the Watch in its current incarnation - if it hasn't already fallen - is probably going to be a lot easier than we think it is for him.

And yeah, Jon's entire growth as a leader has had nothing to do with him trying to attract attention and, instead, naturally getting as a result of doing a good job. He's not likely to flaunt his parentage. It'd make him uncomfortable, just like any other trappings of power would. People will support him because he's capable and it'll be through his actions that he proves himself, rather than through his name alone.

[The Killer Snark]

The trouble with Jon is that, along with Tyrion and Daenarys, he is one of the only good characters who is actually gifted by genius. But genius in Westeros is disposable, so Jon may be more mortal than he seems. If Jon warging into Ghost, or being resurrected turns out to be true, his nominal death will preclude his further responsibilities at the Wall. His council are a pack of buffoons, so it might be dangerous leaving the Wall behind in their hands, but Jon will be able to go his own way, which I think is what his story arc has been building up towards. He is a more inflexible genius than Tyrion or Daenarys, which is partly why Stannis is fond of Jon, but if you've been killed, you've been killed, right, irrespective of whether you've been resurrected? Having him killed by his own troops was probably the only way that Martin had figured out for setting him free.

[J. Stargaryen]

<snip>

That's some very good analysis, fantastic actually. Thank you! I've suggested this idea a few times, and the sum total of the responses I've received is less than what you put forth in one post, so I very much appreciate the thought you put into your answer.

A lot of what you said has crossed my mind, at least in general terms. However, your second paragraph contains some really clever observations that had not occurred to me. This last bit especially:

I'm partially amused, though, since Renly originally hoped to pass her off as a young Lyanna to Robert and given Jon's mother... well, it's funny.

Very nice. :bowdown:

[Isildur's Mane]

... Yet it's not because of his Targaryen blood that Jon could potentially become a King, but because of his Stark blood.

...

Hello, I'm still new to quoting so hopefully this works :)

What The Wolfwoods said here ^ has got me thinking about something I have been thinking of a lot lately. I do believe that the books have been asking the question (amoung other questions) who is better, more suitable, to rule. Is it someone born into it, or chosen by the Gods? Or is it someone who never thought that they would ever become king, but who cares and will do what they think is best for their people?

But what I guess I'm trying to say is that if the books do head down this path, and Jon does become a king, it won't be because he is a dragon, or whatever, but because he is what the people need to unite them. The general public of Westeros might never find out who is parents are, but they might not need to. I think if anyone does, it might be Jon, just to give him that extra push, or maybe only we find out. Who knows right now.

Well said. We agree on so much that I wonder what you think of Jon and his blue rose marrying Margaery Tyrell and her golden rose to reunite the kingdom under a new sigil*, a la the red and white Tudor rose.

*blue and golden rose, or blue rose on a golden background, etc.

ETA= I accidently pressed send when I hadn't finished LOL

I'm not sure about the Tyrell/North alliance. Only because when I think of 'knights of summer' the Tyrells are the first that come to mind. They may not believe the threat of the Others at first, may think it is just some huge hoax or something, and I don't think Jon will have much patience for that. Though I'm happy to be proven wrong, I just can't see it yet :)

[The Killer Snark]

As I've said on threads before, given that Jon and Daenarys are both geniuses of an Atreides disposition (GRRM has never denied the influence of Frank Herbert on his novels), it would be logical for them to get it together in the end to bring full closure to the title of the series. Jon is Ice and Dany is Fire.

[Queen of Procrastination]

As I've said on threads before, given that Jon and Daenarys are both geniuses of an Atreides disposition (GRRM has never denied the influence of Frank Herbert on his novels), it would be logical for them to get it together in the end to bring full closure to the title of the series. Jon is Ice and Dany is Fire.

Jon is half Ice (Lyanna) and Half Fire (Rhaegar) while Dany is full fire (both her parents were Targaryens).

As much as I love both Jon and Dany I don´t want them to marry.

[J. Stargaryen]

<snip>

I'm not sure about the Tyrell/North alliance. Only because when I think of 'knights of summer' the Tyrells are the first that come to mind. They may not believe the threat of the Others at first, may think it is just some huge hoax or something, and I don't think Jon will have much patience for that. Though I'm happy to be proven wrong, I just can't see it yet :)

That is fair, and more or less what some others have said. However, a lot of those same people - really all of us - also expect to be surprised by GRRM. Well, if you can't see this idea just yet, then maybe this is just the type of surprise you should expect. ;)

BTW, welcome to the forum. Let me know if you need any help with figuring things out.

[The Killer Snark]

Oh, I would like to see them marry. What I like about Jon is what I like about Theon. He's completely luckless. Walk with these guys down a street and something bad is going to happen. Ol' Jon deserves a bit of luck.

[The guy from the Vale]

I admit I can see Jon and Dany marry. I just can't see them being happy that way. If they do, it will be because of political expediency, not out of love. Jon looks to exactly those people as examples that Dany despises (The 'Usurper's Dogs': Ned and Stannis). He hates bullshitters and couldn't care less about people like Melisandre. Dany is surrounded by lickspittles and tends to trust old wise ladies even when it isn't smart (Mirri, Quaithe, the Green Grace...). In all these cases, their characters are polar opposites of each other. What they share is their empathy. Jon is way more empathic than Arya, for example. Still, I cannot see these two loving each other.

[Ygrain]

Jon is half Ice (Lyanna) and Half Fire (Rhaegar) while Dany is full fire (both her parents were Targaryens).

As much as I love both Jon and Dany I don´t want them to marry.

Neither do I :-)

If Jon is already Ice + Fire, then Dany becomes somewhat redundant, and I'm afraid that she is heading rather for "fire and blood" and perhaps become "the bride of fire" as the sacrifice which will pay for life.