A Memory of Light [FULL SPOILER DISCUSSION] Part 3

[Shryke]

Yeah, it seems shallow, but they also seem.... Vaguely compatible? As in, I could see why they'd go for each other. But it's not a Grand Love Story For The Ages. It's more "I fancy you." "I kinda fancy you too." "Let's make out!" "Sure!"

Yeah, I can see it going somewhere, but it's still at that "We get along pretty well, let's fuck each other's brains out" stage of the relationship by the end of the series.

[fionwe1987]

I kind of wish RJ had worked to keep the Egwene-Rand thing going. It would have been far more interesting to see how/if their relationship lasted given how incompatible their roles were, for a time. But, I suppose, having the main female character not be reduced to "hero's girlfriend" isn't bad.

[Maithanet]

I kind of wish RJ had worked to keep the Egwene-Rand thing going. It would have been far more interesting to see how/if their relationship lasted given how incompatible their roles were, for a time. But, I suppose, having the main female character not be reduced to "hero's girlfriend" isn't bad.

Or potentially their little crush could have ended badly, which would provide a better reason for why they distrust each other so much for the rest of the story. But that level of relationship realism in this series is probably expecting too much.

[fionwe1987]

Or potentially their little crush could have ended badly, which would provide a better reason for why they distrust each other so much for the rest of the story. But that level of relationship realism in this series is probably expecting too much.

They don't really distrust each other. We did see it go a bit extreme in tGS, where Sanderson wrote a chapter where Rand considers that Egwene would unleash Semrihage on him. But barring those few moments, when Rand was near insane anyway, theres some moderate distrust from Rand's end, every now and then, but nothing that can't be explained by him being a male channeler and being worried about Egwene becoming too Aes Sedai.

But you're right, on the whole. Realistic relationships are rare in the books. Especially among the younger crowd.

[Poobah]

It might be my fascination with Min in general, but years ago I had decided that Rand’s relationship is with Min and it’s an open relationship, which therefore allows him to occasionally fool around with El and Avi. Min was the first girl he met (of the three and also outside the TR). Up until then the only girl in his life was Egwene, but as early as mid-way through TEotW they started growing apart, while other women crept into Rand’s life.

I feel like it'd be closer to say that Rand's poly with the three of them but Min's his primary partner. I feel like 'open relationship' tends to imply that you only really have a 'relationship' with the one person and everything else is very casual and transient. Correct me if I'm wrong.

I do feel though that however casual his relationships with Avi and Elayne are, and mostly I feel like it's Elayne I'm talking about here - he does spend quite a lot of time interacting with Avi and developing his relationship with her (relationship =/= fucking) - that even so I think they all feel... committed to pursuing one another / maintaining their relationships. In their minds at least they're all continually in a romantic relationship - it isn't a 'friends with benefits' thing or any other more casual arrangement.

[Solmyr]

I feel like it'd be closer to say that Rand's poly with the three of them but Min's his primary partner. I feel like 'open relationship' tends to imply that you only really have a 'relationship' with the one person and everything else is very casual and transient. Correct me if I'm wrong.

I do feel though that however casual his relationships with Avi and Elayne are, and mostly I feel like it's Elayne I'm talking about here - he does spend quite a lot of time interacting with Avi and developing his relationship with her (relationship =/= fucking) - that even so I think they all feel... committed to pursuing one another / maintaining their relationships. In their minds at least they're all continually in a romantic relationship - it isn't a 'friends with benefits' thing or any other more casual arrangement.

See, that's the bone I am yet to pick with myself - Avi's relationship. I am uncertain whether it can properly be called a relationship. It certainly isn't one by Earth or Randland standards. It kinda is one by Aiel standards, but not quite there by those either. Avi is unique in that that she mixes wetlander and Aiel ways and ends up having her own, unique code of moralities. Since we have plenty of chapters with her PoV we can clearly see that she perceives her interactions with Rand as a relationship, but it is unclear whether he sees them as one.

And what Rand thinks matters - a lot. Cuz whenever Rand starts thinking about the three he never quite gets there - what does he want, who is he 'officially' in a relationship with, how should he treat one or all three, especially when they are together and so on. Therefore we can't judge what Rand feels for either based on his PoV thoughts. All we have to go by are his actions. And those actions rarely indicate he wants to spend extra time with Avi. He often avoids her when they are together - it's not unheard of for a person who is in love, but hasn't sorted through his feelings, to avoid the object of his affections, but Rand doesn't do that with Min. And he keeps Min close (she wants to stay close, so that works out well). He never asks Avi or Elayne to stay. He knows they wouldn't even if he asked, but as Elayne explains (angrily) in TSR - her not staying despite him asking has nothing to do with the gesture of asking - the latter is expected to show one's affection. But he doesn't do it.

[Rhom]

See, that's the bone I am yet to pick with myself - Avi's relationship. I am uncertain whether it can properly be called a relationship. It certainly isn't one by Earth or Randland standards. It kinda is one by Aiel standards, but not quite there by those either. Avi is unique in that that she mixes wetlander and Aiel ways and ends up having her own, unique code of moralities. Since we have plenty of chapters with her PoV we can clearly see that she perceives her interactions with Rand as a relationship, but it is unclear whether he sees them as one.

And what Rand thinks matters - a lot. Cuz whenever Rand starts thinking about the three he never quite gets there - what does he want, who is he 'officially' in a relationship with, how should he treat one or all three, especially when they are together and so on. Therefore we can't judge what Rand feels for either based on his PoV thoughts. All we have to go by are his actions. And those actions rarely indicate he wants to spend extra time with Avi. He often avoids her when they are together - it's not unheard of for a person who is in love, but hasn't sorted through his feelings, to avoid the object of his affections, but Rand doesn't do that with Min. And he keeps Min close (she wants to stay close, so that works out well). He never asks Avi or Elayne to stay. He knows they wouldn't even if he asked, but as Elayne explains (angrily) in TSR - her not staying despite him asking has nothing to do with the gesture of asking - the latter is expected to show one's affection. But he doesn't do it.

Well, Rand does give her a gift that gets Avi all frustrated because of the implications. Yes, Rand didn't mean it as a a quasi-betrothal; but he did mean it as a sign of affection.

And in all fairness to Rand, he spends approximately ten books out of a fourteen book series believing that he is doomed to go crazy and kill the people closest to him. (And he does almost kill Min.) I can see why he wouldn't want to put any of the three at risk, and IIRC he does try to send Min away on several occasions and she just. won't. leave! :lol:

[Gigei]

He never asks Avi or Elayne to stay. He knows they wouldn't even if he asked, but as Elayne explains (angrily) in TSR - her not staying despite him asking has nothing to do with the gesture of asking - the latter is expected to show one's affection. But he doesn't do it.

I know, right?

I think the ending (that Jordan wrote himself) in which Rand walks away with no worries pretty clearly shows Rand doesn't actually feel all that devoted to the girls. I guess they are just there for a good shag now and then... Rand+Elayne and Rand+Avi are still in that romantic relationship phase where it's mostly sexual. Min is a bit different but not by much, Rand hardly even thinks about whether she is safe or not and of the three Min is the one with the most uncertain future.

Yeah, it seems shallow, but they also seem.... Vaguely compatible? As in, I could see why they'd go for each other. But it's not a Grand Love Story For The Ages. It's more "I fancy you." "I kinda fancy you too." "Let's make out!" "Sure!"

Exactly. That's how I see their relationship.

[Guy Kilmore]

I know, right?

I think the ending (that Jordan wrote himself) in which Rand walks away with no worries pretty clearly shows Rand doesn't actually feel all that devoted to the girls. I guess they are just there for a good shag now and then... Rand+Elayne and Rand+Avi are still in that romantic relationship phase where it's mostly sexual. Min is a bit different but not by much, Rand hardly even thinks about whether she is safe or not and of the three Min is the one with the most uncertain future.

To be fair Rand did see like the whole of the pattern when fighting the Dark One, so he is probably the most aware of who is alive, their futures, etc, etc; plus he can "feel" them inside his head. The reverse is also true. I hope that if I defeated the ultimate evil in the world and switched bodies, my wife would be cool with me having some alone time.

[Gertrude]

That was Jordan's reasoning for the harem?

*vomits*

[Gigei]

To be fair Rand did see like the whole of the pattern when fighting the Dark One, so he is probably the most aware of who is alive, their futures, etc, etc; plus he can "feel" them inside his head. The reverse is also true. I hope that if I defeated the ultimate evil in the world and switched bodies, my wife would be cool with me having some alone time.

If theirs was a grand love to end all time, the first thing Rand would have done is to spend some time with his three beloveds. You know, if a person had just defeated the ultimate evil, surely he would then go off and be happy with his sweetheart/s.

The fact that his first thought is to get away from it all, well... to me it just shows they have that "booty call" type of relationship. Like, okay, Rand thinks he "loves" the girls but he doesn't want to spend time with them. He never thinks "it would be super sweet to go around the world with my honeys." He thinks that it would be nice if he went away, period. Do you think Perrin would go off alone on a pleasure trip without Faile? Would Lan? I don't think so.

Also, "alone time" while you are married? We are talking like years of "alone time" here since Rand is planning to adventure all over the world. It's not like he is taking a 2-week break. Quote: "he figured he wanted to go some place away from it all for good." For good! Dude is planning to run out on all of his responsibilities. Quote: "He came like the wind, like the wind touched everything, and like the wind was gone." Loial's writing seems to indicate that Rand disappeared for good, too ("like the wind was gone").

Idk, to me it really looks like Rand is out of history permanently (also as per the prophecies), meaning he never marries Elayne (queen's consort would be a highly visible public position), or Min (since she is at Tuon's court, same problem). I see their future as Rand going wherever he wants with not a care in the world while the women work their asses off since they all have positions of reponsibility. Rand will probably just drop in on them once in a while for a booty call.

To clarify: I am saying Rand is not devoted to the girls. He loves them but only in a careless way like "oh she's here, she's hot, let's do it." The ending just put it into perspective, Rand is gonna go off alone, adventuring and having fun. He does think that it would be nice if one of the girls were with him but he is not too bothered about them. That just doesn't spell a deep love, IMO. :)

[Gigei]

my bad, hit quote instead of edit

[Solmyr]

Gigei, I agree that Rand's affection for any of his girls runs shallowly, but that's compared to other Randland relationships (or Earth ones). Rand is not your average man in a relationship, though. Not only is he the DR, bearing the fate of the world on his shoulders, but he has all those people and things on his mind that he can't really ignore in favour of his chicks.

You have that for 14 books. Only in the epilogue Rand is somewhat free of all that - not completely tho. He needs to escape in order for the world to forget him, else how would he finally know peace and rest? He wishes for one or more of the girls to follow him, but he doesn't seem concerned by the prospect of that not happening. We consistently see that even in the confines of his own mind he resists the fact that he can be with all three and all three can love him at the same time (and like each other). Therefore he cannot permit himself to hope for one or more of them to follow, else "he's a lecher and so on".

And there's one more thing about the epilogue - Rand doesn't seem like Rand. Everything about him is off. I wish to believe that RJ really wrote most of the epilogue and Rand is simply off because of the body-swap, the changes in the world and the Pattern and so on. But I can't shake off the feeling that BS' style somehow crept in the epilogue and spoiled the last glimpse we ever get to see of Rand.

[Gigei]

I know, I was originally responding to the people who said Rand+harem is really implausible.

I think its quite workable, IMO, since it seem they just have a sporadic, informal relationship.

[Cause]

Gigei, I agree that Rand's affection for any of his girls runs shallowly, but that's compared to other Randland relationships (or Earth ones). Rand is not your average man in a relationship, though. Not only is he the DR, bearing the fate of the world on his shoulders, but he has all those people and things on his mind that he can't really ignore in favour of his chicks.

You have that for 14 books. Only in the epilogue Rand is somewhat free of all that - not completely tho. He needs to escape in order for the world to forget him, else how would he finally know peace and rest? He wishes for one or more of the girls to follow him, but he doesn't seem concerned by the prospect of that not happening. We consistently see that even in the confines of his own mind he resists the fact that he can be with all three and all three can love him at the same time (and like each other). Therefore he cannot permit himself to hope for one or more of them to follow, else "he's a lecher and so on".

And there's one more thing about the epilogue - Rand doesn't seem like Rand. Everything about him is off. I wish to believe that RJ really wrote most of the epilogue and Rand is simply off because of the body-swap, the changes in the world and the Pattern and so on. But I can't shake off the feeling that BS' style somehow crept in the epilogue and spoiled the last glimpse we ever get to see of Rand.

Or if it really was written by RJ many years ago than it would be off because it ignores books and books worth of changes.

If RJ were still alive I cant imagine him just putting in a chapter he wrote many years ago to end cap his series. That he is dead meant BS did it out of respect but that does not mean the ending fits anymore

[Myrddin]

Or if it really was written by RJ many years ago than it would be off because it ignores books and books worth of changes.

If RJ were still alive I cant imagine him just putting in a chapter he wrote many years ago to end cap his series. That he is dead meant BS did it out of respect but that does not mean the ending fits anymore

This is exactly what I was going to say.

Do we know when RJ wrote that last chapter? He said many times over the years he knew the last scene in his head. Being a writer, that probably means he scribbled it down at some point, if just to get an "inspired" draft down so he could tweak it when the time comes to put it in the proper place.

That ending makes more sense for the Rand at the end of one the first three books, rather than the Rand that evolved over 14.

[fionwe1987]

If theirs was a grand love to end all time, the first thing Rand would have done is to spend some time with his three beloveds.

Why? Its not like he doesn't know all three of them have tons of work to do. They're not defined by being his girlfriend, and really cannot afford to be seen with a strange man so soon after Rand's death. That either paints them as callous, or spreads suspicion that Rand survived.

[Shryke]

It also feels like Rand is on some sort of high. He just saved all of existence, dumped the crushing weight of responsibilities off his shoulders, got a new fully healed body and may or may not wield god-like powers. Motherfucker is ready to cut loose. He should feel different from from previous Rand.

[Gigei]

Actually, why does Rand have to die anyway? Okay so he has a different face but its not like everybody knew Moridin's mug (hence why he is able to travel anonymously). They could surely have just explained it as a "he got reborn, it's what he does" type of thing. The fact that he buggers off doing nothing while he could still help out is a bit much, IMO. The ending was a spectacular wish fulfillment of having a life with 3 hot girlfriends but no responsibilities.

Why? Its not like he doesn't know all three of them have tons of work to do. They're not defined by being his girlfriend, and really cannot afford to be seen with a strange man so soon after Rand's death. That either paints them as callous, or spreads suspicion that Rand survived.

But we get his POV and he doesn't care at all. It's not about practicality, it's about desire and emotion.

Let's say your wife/husband had to leave you for a few years because of some unavoidable stuff - that's acceptable. Him/Her not even wanting to stay with you - that's not.

IMO, the ending was really like "oh yeah, gtg cya later or maybe not girls" and either way, it's fine with him.

Anyway, I have already posted about this like 4 times, if you have a different opinion I'm not gonna reply again but that's my take on the whole Rand as a deadbeat dad ending.

That ending makes more sense for the Rand at the end of one the first three books, rather than the Rand that evolved over 14.

I also think so, too.

[fionwe1987]

Actually, why does Rand have to die anyway? Okay so he has a different face but its not like everybody knew Moridin's mug (hence why he is able to travel anonymously). They could surely have just explained it as a "he got reborn, it's what he does" type of thing. The fact that he buggers off doing nothing while he could still help out is a bit much, IMO. The ending was a spectacular wish fulfillment of having a life with 3 hot girlfriends but no responsibilities.

Its not the new face. Its not wanting the limelight. He did his thing, and he doesn't want the responsibility of the world on his shoulders again. A perfectly reasonable ending.

But we get his POV and he doesn't care at all. It's not about practicality, it's about desire and emotion.

There was no such PoV. He knows they all have years ahead of them. Nothing in his PoV says he's going away forever. And he does want them to come for him. Its just that he can't go to them, they're all too much in the public eye. But with the bond, they can get to him when they want (Min will find it a little harder, but not impossible).

Let's say your wife/husband had to leave you for a few years because of some unavoidable stuff - that's acceptable. Him/Her not even wanting to stay with you - that's not.

He wants them to come for him. He wonders if one or more will. And he wants all three to.

IMO, the ending was really like "oh yeah, gtg cya later or maybe not girls" and either way, it's fine with him.

It is explicitly not.