Tormund, Husband to Bears.

[lady m]

I don't think Dacey is his, but the rest of Maege's girls could definitely be Tormund's, and I think it's likely they are. I do think he took the boys. And the Umber story could be true as well, Toregg looks different than Tormund's other boys, and she could have died in childbirth. Also, Alysane is unmarried and the mother of two.

[fassreiter]

I don't think Tormund has ever been south of the Wall. When it is his turn to pass through the Wall, he says:

Time I had a look at what’s on t’other side of all that ice.

It is said in ASOS that most wildlings have never even seen the Wall, and among all his titles Tormund doesn't call himself a raider, which is as prestigious as it can get. He wouldn't be the one to keep quiet about the fact that he had climbed the Wall or crossed the shore. All his titles refer to his own Hall (where he is king) and so does the title 'Husband to bears'.

Also there is this scene:

Bowen Marsh said: "These are wildlings. Savages, raiders, rapers, more beast than man." "Tormund is none of those things,” said Jon, “no more than Mance Rayder."

The story is just a common piece of folklore, complete with a pelt being left behind and such. Creating a mythological heritage for your family is always advisable, see Merovech, or even Melusina. I actually think the story would be too 'rapey' to focus on an actual woman. Even if it 'only' started out as rape, I don't think it would be a good idea to turn it into a cute love story featuring actual characters. The tall-talking of the wildling's rape culture is bad enough already in my opinion.

PS: Don't get me wrong, I love the wildlings, they are by far my favourite people, but this rape story of Tormund did always bug me, and I think their rape culture is difficult to deal with in general. A cute story that tells us that sometimes 'no' does in fact mean 'yes' is disgusting, even if it is 'just' fiction. Dany and Drogo are another example.

[The Titan's Legitimate Son]

I don't think Tormund has ever been south of the Wall. When it is his turn to pass through the Wall, he says:

It is said in ASOS that most wildlings have never even seen the Wall, and among all his titles Tormund doesn't call himself a raider, which is as prestigious as it can get. He wouldn't be the one to keep quiet about the fact that he had climbed the Wall or crossed the shore. All his titles refer to his own Hall (where he is king) and so does the title 'Husband to bears'.

As another person pointed out, Tormund does not necessarily have had to see or go over the Wall to get to Bear Island - in fact there is a lot of land between the Wall's western end and the bay of Ice - http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/File:The_North.png

[The Titan's Legitimate Son]

Also I was thinking that perhaps another title of Tormunds' "Father of Hosts" could mayhaps indictae his large brood? Dacey, Alysane, Lyanna, Jorelle, Lyra, Torregg, Torwynd, Dwyn, Dormund, Munda. :commie:

[Black Wolf Smith]

Also I was thinking that perhaps another title of Tormunds' "Father of Hosts" could mayhaps indictae his large brood? Dacey, Alysane, Lyanna, Jorelle, Lyra, Torregg, Torwynd, Dwyn, Dormund, Munda. :commie:

yes this theory has long been on heresy threads. :commie:

ETA: I even think its been on the Great Northern Conspiracy theard, the old one.

[bemused]

Yes, it was on the old conspiracy threads..it's interesting that Tormund doesn't claim to have stolen his bear woman.. he simply goes to see her. Somehow it puts them on a more equal footing..their union is something they're both agreeable to.

Mormont says Maege is difficult ( paraphrase). She obviously has her own ideas.

If you think of the situation they were put in when Jorah escaped ..with Jeor on the wall ( and did he take the black because of Jorah running ?) ... Then Maege found herself in the position we've seen other women in. Either she has to marry and let Bear Island pass to another house.. or she has to take charge ,hold out and try to think of another solution.

Tormund also doesn't mention crossing water to find his Bear Woman. Maybe she went looking for a worthy wildling mate ( who wouldn't be looking to move south, take over her house but have to kneel in the process )...Jorah might have come back and taken the Black,but for all she knew he might have a son.. She wouldn't have wanted her house to be at war with itself.. She may have thought that if she could raise a few daughters, then they could follow suit.. but by their maturity, they might know what happened to Jorah, and they could keep daughters and sons ..and Jeor (or Jorah) could officially recognize one of the sons from the wall.. I don't know , this is kind of half-formed in my mind..Obviously this was not a practice of Mormont women before Jorah's downfall. Jeor was Lord, Jorah his heir , and as far as we know , things were proceeding normally...

Unfortunately Jeor was killed , and Jorah has not reappeared , but Alysanne has a two year old son.

Was this ( or something like it ) the bone of contention between Maege and Jeor ? ( Maege obviously had some plan. The Mormont women are not merely promiscuous, and don't seem to dislike men. )..And had Jeor come around to seeing things her way ?..He asks Sam to tell Jorah to take the Black...In other words , do the right thing, in payment for his crime... but also for his house ?

As it is, he's just an exile,has no say in anything... but on the Wall , he would still be the head of House Mormont and could legitimize who he would..he just couldn't leave the Wall.

[The Titan's Legitimate Son]

Yes, it was on the old conspiracy threads..it's interesting that Tormund doesn't claim to have stolen his bear woman.. he simply goes to see her. Somehow it puts them on a more equal footing..their union is something they're both agreeable to.

Mormont says Maege is difficult ( paraphrase). She obviously has her own ideas.

<snip>

Jeor claims he "can hardly stand to be around the wretched woman". It could be a situation similar to the Blackfish. Jeor doesn't agree with her views and she didn't follow his 'advice' so they can't stand to be near each other - but the still love each other as family.

[Thendel]

I don't think Tormund has ever been south of the Wall. When it is his turn to pass through the Wall, he says:

It is said in ASOS that most wildlings have never even seen the Wall, and among all his titles Tormund doesn't call himself a raider, which is as prestigious as it can get. He wouldn't be the one to keep quiet about the fact that he had climbed the Wall or crossed the shore. All his titles refer to his own Hall (where he is king) and so does the title 'Husband to bears'.

Also there is this scene:

The story is just a common piece of folklore, complete with a pelt being left behind and such. Creating a mythological heritage for your family is always advisable, see Merovech, or even Melusina. I actually think the story would be too 'rapey' to focus on an actual woman. Even if it 'only' started out as rape, I don't think it would be a good idea to turn it into a cute love story featuring actual characters. The tall-talking of the wildling's rape culture is bad enough already in my opinion.

PS: Don't get me wrong, I love the wildlings, they are by far my favourite people, but this rape story of Tormund did always bug me, and I think their rape culture is difficult to deal with in general. A cute story that tells us that sometimes 'no' does in fact mean 'yes' is disgusting, even if it is 'just' fiction. Dany and Drogo are another example.

I think you're missing one of Jon's points: Having crossed the Wall doesn't mean you're a raider, as Mance obviously crossed the Wall several times (and Jon specifically says Mance was never a raider, rapist or beast). Conclusively, you can't say that not being a raider means one's never climbed the Wall.

[The Red Maester]

Alternatively, Tormund may just be full of shit.

[Lady Green]

yes this theory has long been on heresy threads. :commie:

This is not heresy! LONG LIVE MAEGMUND

[fassreiter]

I think you're missing one of Jon's points: Having crossed the Wall doesn't mean you're a raider, as Mance obviously crossed the Wall several times (and Jon specifically says Mance was never a raider, rapist or beast). Conclusively, you can't say that not being a raider means one's never climbed the Wall.

I didn't say that not being a raider meant not ever having climbed the Wall. I meant that it is likely that Tormund would talk about having climbed the Wall, as a raider or not, if he ever had. This was one of the reasons (next to his remark about going to see what was beyond it for the first time) I assumed he had never been across the Wall. Tormund is definitely not a raider for a couple of reasons: He never said he is, Jon explicitly said he is not and there is no reason to assume he has ever been near the Wall. His remark about going to see what is beyond is just one more reason to believe he would never have met any Mormont. And because there is no reason whatsoever to assume that any Mormont or Umber or whatever northman's noble wife or daughter would cross the Wall just for fun and make out with random wildlings (risking a war between wildlings and NW as soon as their fathers or husbands realized they were missing), I think the whole Mormont/Tormund-story is moot. I think Tormund made himself a name as part of the free folk culture, he doesn't need to back up his stories with secret references to noble ladies.

[Black Wolf Smith]

This is not heresy! LONG LIVE MAEGMUND

Was not saying it was, was saying it had be discussed on heresy, then remember where I first saw it. On the GNC thread, might even have been Tze theory, she did set forth a lot of what was on that.

[bemused]

I think other threads were involved as well, and I think quite a bit of it came from Kiss'dbyfire and me bouncing ideas off each other ..kind of a side issue in figuring out why/how Alysanne came to be with Stannis .. ( which also expanded my view of the Northern Conspiracy )

But , fassreiter, I'm specifically saying , if it turns out that way , it was not " just for fun ", but a serious attempt to maintain Mormont rulership...A political coupling/marriage ( no novelty in Westeros ), just approached from outside the box....If we ever get to hear about the She-wolves of WF , they may prove to have been Maege's inspiration.

ETA: In Maege's case , her brother ( and lord ) in the NW, his son ( and heir ) in exile, and no husband.. No one to disapprove ...and if they did ( as Jeor may have) they could be no help to her either ...should she just stand by and see her House disintegrate ?

Go, Maege ! :D

[Lady Green]

Was not saying it was, was saying it had be discussed on heresy, then remember where I first saw it. On the GNC thread, might even have been Tze theory, she did set forth a lot of what was on that.

In which case I apologise!

[Gauis Julius Caesar]

I think it was me that brought up this theory lol. I came up with it myself but admittedly it seems some already beat me to it lol

[The Titan's Legitimate Son]

I think it was me that brought up this theory lol. I came up with it myself but admittedly it seems some already beat me to it lol

I saw someone post soemthing in the thread I linked in the OP - was probably you so fair play.

In which case I apologise!

:whip:

[King.In.Yellow]

I actually think the story would be too 'rapey' to focus on an actual woman. Even if it 'only' started out as rape, I don't think it would be a good idea to turn it into a cute love story featuring actual characters. The tall-talking of the wildling's rape culture is bad enough already in my opinion.

The wildlings seem to have this idea that a woman struggling against her suitor is attractive and a suitor powerful enough to overpower her is attractive. Ygritte falls for Jon Snow because he 'steals' (overpowers) her. Can you really rape someone who thinks that being strong enough to overpower them makes you worthy of their companionship?

[Bright Blue Eyes]

The wildlings seem to have this idea that a woman struggling against her suitor is attractive and a suitor powerful enough to overpower her is attractive. Ygritte falls for Jon Snow because he 'steals' (overpowers) her. Can you really rape someone who thinks that being strong enough to overpower them makes you worthy of their companionship?

It depends. There is a discrepancy between what happens with eligible Wildling maidens (Munda, Ygritte) or women from south of the Wall.

With Wildling maidens, it is solely a courtship ritual, the bridegroom proving his courage and skills an a mock attempt to steal the bride. No real violence and the resistance of family and friends is toned down to something a single guy can overcome if he puts effort into it.

Not so with the kidnapping of women south of the Wall.

[The Titan's Legitimate Son]

It depends. There is a discrepancy between what happens with eligible Wildling maidens (Munda, Ygritte) or women from south of the Wall.

With Wildling maidens, it is solely a courtship ritual, the bridegroom proving his courage and skills an a mock attempt to steal the bride. No real violence and the resistance of family and friends is toned down to something a single guy can overcome if he puts effort into it.

Not so with the kidnapping of women south of the Wall.

But from what we have seen of Maege she is a "hoary old snark" and more than capable of holding of a man in battle and no doubt a wildling in a 'raid'. Maybe this is how they fell in love? Maege held off Tormund, they both work up a sweat - they get caught out in the open in winter in the middle of the forest and rely on each other's "warmth" to stay alive. (Again the use of artistic license)

[bemused]

rtr ... :D :D .. I think different people following the same lines of reasoning to the same conclusions independently is not only fun to see, but sort of confirms that GRRM has something up his sleeve on the topic.

For me , what started as a quaint, fun idea springing from the way people are called by their sigils ( Starks=wolves, Lannisters=lions, etc.) took on a much more serious note when I began to think about Maege and whether she would do such a thing , and if so, why ?( Not just wondering, was it physically possible for either of them to get from point A to point B. )

Then it seemed to me that Maege was far more likely to have taken the first step than Tormund ( because Tormund is not a notorious raider , and Maege comes from a place that habitually uses boats , whereas Tormund doesn't seem to ).

A wildling, particularly a cheiftain , who wouldn't want to kneel , would seem to be her perfect solution...( This would have been happening well before anyone knew that the Others were about to become a threat. Tormund wouldn't have been seeking refuge at that time , any more than he'd be likely to be raiding .)

As Tormund tells the story, he already knew the bear woman , but wanted to see her again... Did they have an agreement to meet again at a given time .. to see if she had gotten pregnant ... or to hand over a boy child ... should they try again ... how were the kids doing , etc.