Tormund, Husband to Bears.

[Lady Green]

:whip:

I might like it like that ;)

[fassreiter]

But from what we have seen of Maege she is a "hoary old snark" and more than capable of holding of a man in battle and no doubt a wildling in a 'raid'. Maybe this is how they fell in love? Maege held off Tormund, they both work up a sweat - they get caught out in the open in winter in the middle of the forest and rely on each other's "warmth" to stay alive. (Again the use of artistic license)

But what does it imply? It's rape we are talking about. Making up a rape story is bad enough, but I agree with Bright Blue Eyes that among wildlings it is more of a ritual. But making up a rape story that only turns into a love story because the woman is conveniently able to fight off the man is still a rape story. What if the woman is not able to fight off the man? Is it her own fault then when she gets raped?

[The guy from the Vale]

But what does it imply? It's rape we are talking about. Making up a rape story is bad enough, but I agree with Bright Blue Eyes that among wildlings it is more of a ritual. But making up a rape story that only turns into a love story because the woman is conveniently able to fight off the man is still a rape story. What if the woman is not able to fight off the man? Is it her own fault then when she gets raped?

From the perspective of the borderline anarchistic Wildling culture with its encouragement of the ability to fight in men and women... yes. probably. This applies not only to rape, but also robbery and theft - if you can't defend yourself against it, it's pretty much your fault North of the Wall.

[fassreiter]

From the perspective of the borderline anarchistic Wildling culture with its encouragement of the ability to fight in men and women... yes. probably. This applies not only to rape, but also robbery and theft - if you can't defend yourself against it, it's pretty much your fault North of the Wall.

But we are reading this from our modern perspective (or at least we should) and I am not comfortable to see a rape story turned into a love story, or to see any implied guilt attributed to the woman in question when she doesn't manage to get rid of the rapist or make him fall in love with her. GRRM can have the wildlings think this way, of course, but then he has to make clear he doesn't want us to approve (or write fan fiction about it). The reaction to the theory about Tormund and Maege Mormont shows that it is pretty easy to make something cute out of a rape story, and this is why I have a problem with GRRM's story telling in this instant. It's not so much of a problem as long as it is a mythical story full of tall-talking about making out with a bear. But a rape story about an actual character - I can't see a difference between Tormund and the Weeper if this was true. I think GRRM has written himself into a corner a bit, maybe this is why he came up with Jon's little speech about Mance and Tormund not being rapists, and made the Weeper appear as a really bad guy in contrast.

[Scipio Africanus]

Maybe it was a particularly harsh winter (as in the story) and the two are trapped together for days too. Now, would Maege be forced to give up this child? Well, even the Starks have had to put up with a wildling bastard as shown by the story of Bael the Bard. From what we know about the Mormont line, is pretty lean with only Jorah and Jeor - and Jorah seems 'infertile'. Lets say for arguments sake she keeps it.

I personally see that story as a metaphore. That the Starks are the blood of First Men and aren't that different from the Wildlings beyond he Wall (which, obviously, they're not). Its more of a propaganda tale for Wildlings than a literal event.

That said, Tormund could be using metaphores too in the case of his tale (he is called Tall Talker after all). So he could be refering to Maege in his tale.

From the perspective of the borderline anarchistic Wildling culture with its encouragement of the ability to fight in men and women... yes. probably. This applies not only to rape, but also robbery and theft - if you can't defend yourself against it, it's pretty much your fault North of the Wall.

The Wildlings aren't hardcore anarchists. They still follow their patriarchs/matriachs and have a hiarchial society. The Thenns even are basically the same as any noble house south of the Wall. And most importantly, they seem to elect a "king" from time to time implying they respect hiarchy.

[The guy from the Vale]

As I said, borderline anarchistic, at least when compared to the Seven Kingdoms or the Free Cities. No, they aren't ideological anarchists; they wouldn't even know what anarchy is. That said, they basically follow the principle of might makes right to the fullest - and if one is mighty enough to keep everybody else in check, he (or she? Why were there no Queens beyond the Wall? Curious), that gives that person the right to be king. Doesn't mean he'll stay king if he loses that might.

As for the Thenns, I would like to exclude them from that analysis; they are a special case among the Wildlings, and less likely than others to raid and rape south of the Wall since they live so far away from it.

As for Maegmund and rape - I think we're supposed to be both sympathetic to and skeptical of the Wildling customs: sympathetic insofar as they challenge the hypocritical Westerosi societal norms, but skeptical insofar as they are a region where might makes right, with all the dangerous consequences. Only because Tormund glosses over some details doesn't mean he's suddenly the best guy on earth. (Yes, I love Tormund too. But I also loved Tyrion once...) Since we don't know how intense the Mormont-Wildling relations are in general, it's hard to gauge how familiar they are with wildling customs in general - it might well be that Maege wanted to be "stolen" in that particular instance. Or she was raped indeed, and yes, then the entire part becomes problematic.

[Scipio Africanus]

Hmm yes well. The "Wildlings rape" has me bothered somewhat. They seem to take great pride in "stealing southron women" on raids. Yet the Wildlings women seem almost "emancipated" compared to thet rest. For they say, "a man can own a knife or a women but not both" implying that Wildlings women are either capable of leaving or killing a man they don't want to be with. Plus their unusual custom (apart from Bear Island) of enrolling women as warriors.

[Angmar]

Won't be long before he comes upon a few female wolves. XD

[bemused]

Scipio Africanus..I agree...Unless you believe Tormund always speaks the unvarnished truth :D , then he was speaking metaphorically. I doubt he's simply BS-ing... ( except, maybe, about his member..)

Tormund uses saga-speak all the time. It may be wildly entertaining and exaggerated , but there's usually a kernel of truth in there that people will remember..and get the enclosed message... I don't take the "rape" aspect too much to heart , because like others here have mentioned, unless we're talking about serious raiders, there seems to be a fair amount of posturing involved in a lot of wildling wife stealing ( Toregg slept right through Munda's abduction. Really ? Convenient for Longspear Ryk..)

Large breasts do seem to run in the Mormont line , and Tormund twice takes note of the bear woman's temper in the space of his tale, which seems to echo the Old Bear's sentiments ;)

We speculated quite a bit about Tormund ( and Val ) here , http://asoiaf.wester...-old-gods/ and it seems to me there could be a lot of truth in Tormund's various titles , and in his stories. They just need a bit of decoding.

ETA: yeah, I meant to point out that if it was Maege, it can't have been much of a rape ,since Tormund woke up to find her gone , and a man can own a wife or a knife , but not both ( Scipio beat me to it)....and if it was her , and it was rape , how would he wind up with their sons ? ( He mentions a pair o' cubs)

ETA,again..I can't help it , more keeps occurring . Tormund tells Jon that Longspear's back is so scratched up he can hardly put a shirt on , after stealing Munda , clearly implying they're wounds of passion. Is Tormund's beat-up state after his bear woman leaves meant to imply the same , in hindsight ?

[sertravisredbeard]

This could also explain why Jeor described his sister as "difficult" and other things. If she was in love with a wildling, she might not have had great feelings about the Night's Watch. Although the Old Bear realized that the Watch had forgotten its true purpose (protecting the realm from the Others) at the end of his life, he spent most of his time in charge fighting wildlings.

Maege could have resented her brother's position as the head of the Border Guards abusing her "illegal alien" lover's people. Maege never really seemed that difficult to me in her interactions with Catelyn and Robb. She was one of Robb's most ardent supporters, so the "difficulty" might have been reserved for Jeor himself.

[Eir]

Maege could have resented her brother's position as the head of the Border Guards abusing her "illegal alien" lover's people. Maege never really seemed that difficult to me in her interactions with Catelyn and Robb. She was one of Robb's most ardent supporters, so the "difficulty" might have been reserved for Jeor himself.

Or the siblings simply didn't get on. I love my own brother dearly and know that he's a fun, loyal chap with lots of good friends, but there's a reason we live on opposite ends of the country and spend the barest amount of time with each other during holidays. Some siblings are like oil and water and just get under each other's skin. No need for age-old enemies or prejudice, just a clash of personalities, especially when they're both stubborn ^_^ That's how I read the relationship between Jeor and Maege, at least.

Am totally Team Maegmund, though I do like the idea of Tormund "Giantsbane" and the female Umber. He could have had them both--there's plenty of Tormund to go around!

[King.In.Yellow]

But we are reading this from our modern perspective (or at least we should) and I am not comfortable to see a rape story turned into a love story, or to see any implied guilt attributed to the woman in question when she doesn't manage to get rid of the rapist or make him fall in love with her.

If you're not comfortable with it, shift your weight around until you feel comfortable. Also, try to get inside a wildling's head. Don't use your modern perspective. If we treat ASOIAF as a history book, we should also not judge its characters by the standards of our own time. It's a mistake many amateur historians make.

[Rathpex]

I'm on my 2nd time through the books now.

I saw this dialogue between Jon Snow and Mormont a couple of weeks ago and immediately thought of Tormund (and Maege):

....

Mormont:

"My sister is said to have taken a bear for a lover".

Admitidly, Tormund is described as a short man with a long white beard... even still this has legs to add into the theory!

EDIT: Infact, I even sent a text to my friends which said:

"Mormonts sister is said to have taken a bear for a lover, and tormund is said to have mated with a bear as well... Could it be that they were together?"

[Brienne Of Bombay]

I officially knight this relationship Maegmund, and declare that Maege and Tormund are wife and husband and lovers.

:)

[fassreiter]

Don't use your modern perspective. If we treat ASOIAF as a history book, we should also not judge its characters by the standards of our own time. It's a mistake many amateur historians make.

Hayden White would disagree (about the amateurs). But no, actually your view is based on a misunderstanding many fans cling to when they have to defend their favourite fictional characters. I am sure you do in fact know that ASOIAF is not a history book and should not be treated as such. There are people out there dreaming about being those characters, making up fan fiction and uttering on this very board that they wish they could give certain characters a hug. I know what I am dealing with when I study medieval history, but we are not doing history here. ASOIAF is entertainment. I don't know where some people have been over the last few decades, but as far as I know most people assume that you can't draw a line between public and private discourses. ASOIAF is as much part of our reality now as the newspaper article about a woman being raped. Both texts shape our world view. I feel neither enraged nor entertained by the knowledge that according to medieval law, a woman who has been raped should be able to present a torn dress, otherwise her accusation was not valid because then it was assumed that she did not put up much of a fight because she actually enjoyed it. But if someone took that special piece of history today and turned it into a compelling medieval fantasy story, and this story was told from the perspective of a woman who actually liked being raped - if you don't see a problem there I don't even know where to start. The difference between fiction and history might be not as clear cut as we might wish for, but there is a difference in the structure that shapes modern and medieval stories. Our (and their) stories are grounded in each respective (contingent) discourse, so there is no need to pretend we could go back to medieval thinking. Nor is there any reason to do so. By the way, ASOIAF deals with essentially modern conflicts and themes, and its protagonists are very modern people. GRRM is well aware of that.

[King.In.Yellow]

^ GRRM has no societal obligation. If he wants certain female characters in his story to enjoy what some other women within or without the story consider to be rape, it is his prerogative. Wildling culture is different. I happen to come from a culture which is different from anglo-saxon culture or Western European culture (in which I am immersed every day), and some things in the old country would be repulsive to Westerners and some Western things would be repulsive in the old country.

You learn to deal with the fact that not everyone likes the things you like, nor feels repulsed by the things that repulse you.

I realize that ASOIAF isn't history, but it deals with a place similar to medieval Europe. I'm gonna drive parallels here for convenience.

Furthermore, I'd like to express my regret that a thread which was initially about fornicating with bears is now a rape definition thread.

[Ajbc]

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[Ajbc]

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[The Titan's Legitimate Son]

Furthermore, I'd like to express my regret that a thread which was initially about fornicating with bears is now a rape definition thread.

It's the rules of this forum isn't it? All threads lead to either 1) Stannis 2) rape discussions 3) Wars between two characters (i.e. Jon/Cat, Robb/Edmure) - or variations of the above.

[Scott Blackfyre]

Love this! If it turns out to be so, I can't wait to see their reunion:

"You"

"YOU!"

They rush together, embrace, and fall into the snow as long lost lovers.

:love: HAR HAR!