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Angalin

Small questions for ADwD, v.V

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I see what you're saying. Do we have any proof that Targaryens are immune to sickness, however? Daeron II died because of sickness, and so did Prince Valarr and Prince Matarys. And all the other Targaryen kings who died young, like Jaehaerys, or Aenys, how about them? Did most certainly did not die in battle, so what else killed them?

Indeed he was drowning, and he swallowed a lot of water, but did Lemore force the water from Tyrions lungs. When you are drowning, I'm not sure how much water actually goes into your lungs, and how much water goes into your digestive system (like water should go). I did a quick Wikipedia search on drowning, and it seems that most water actually goes into your stomach, and only very little goes into your lungs. However, since Lemore has been said to have forced the water from Tyrions lungs, I am inclined to believe that Tyrion had more water in his lungs than one usually does when drowning. My conclusion: I'm really not sure, though if you would like to read it, here's the link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drowning#Water_inhalation

So again, JonCon must have gotten the disease from saving Tyrion, how else would he have gotten it? It might be that Tyrions immune system is better than JonCon's, and perhaps that was a factor in why Tyrion didn't get sick. And I have read before that many people say that Targaryens cannot get sick, but I can't remember reading anything about that. I am interested in reading it though, so perhaps you could provide some links to threads or explain the theory yourself? :)

I recall Dany saying something to the effect that her brother always told her that they were immune to certain sicknesses . I believe it was when they were dealing with the people who were sick from the pale mare where she started helping men clean up the dead and the unsullied followed her.

I like the story line. It also clicks very well and solves a multitude of problems for him. As far as clicking: We know Tyrion has always been fascinated by dragons since childhood and has had dreams of dragons. His father hates him! as only the husband of a raped wife could hate. The mismatched black eye could be a clue as well.

As far as helping him out: It gives Dany a reason to take him in (and seriously, if Tyrion is ever honestly able to tell Dany the tale of woe his life has been as a Lannister she most certainly will take him in), it also means that Tywin was not his father and therefore not a kinslayer. Furthermore, in the future the false accusations of being a kingslayer would be looked at as fighting for his house and killing a false king/usurper if the Targaryens come to rule again.

Personally, I hope this works out this way for Tyrion. Tyrion drinks and whores because his family has been awful to him but somehow he has remained a good person at heart.

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I see what you're saying. Do we have any proof that Targaryens are immune to sickness, however? Daeron II died because of sickness, and so did Prince Valarr and Prince Matarys. And all the other Targaryen kings who died young, like Jaehaerys, or Aenys, how about them? Did most certainly did not die in battle, so what else killed them?

Okay. I haven't had a crackpot theory in, well, ever.

I am going to go out on a limb and say that wine-soaked and seriously tried at every turn Tyrion has a strong immune system, and he is a Targ. In Dance, Tywin was not happy about the fact the Mad King kept up the practice of King's rights with the bride. If the Mad King might have been the father of Jaime and Cersei, perhaps that is why Tywin did not name his first born son Ty...something. (I have wondered about that. Has someone covered that before?) But what if the Mad King took his pleasure with her later unbeknownst to Tywinn, and Tyrion is the product of that union?

On a non-crackpot note, I think that Jon had it before he rescued Tyrion. He just takes it too calmly that he has it when Martin tells us.

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Okay. I haven't had a crackpot theory in, well, ever.

I am going to go out on a limb and say that wine-soaked and seriously tried at every turn Tyrion has a strong immune system, and he is a Targ. In Dance, Tywin was not happy about the fact the Mad King kept up the practice of King's rights with the bride. If the Mad King might have been the father of Jaime and Cersei, perhaps that is why Tywin did not name his first born son Ty...something. (I have wondered about that. Has someone covered that before?) But what if the Mad King took his pleasure with her later unbeknownst to Tywinn, and Tyrion is the product of that union?

On a non-crackpot note, I think that Jon had it before he rescued Tyrion. He just takes it too calmly that he has it when Martin tells us.

Aerys didn't keep the First Night as it had been abolished by Jaehaerys(?). Aerys merely got a bit too touchy feely during the bedding ceremony (From which I gather there was touching in all the wrong places)

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Okay. I haven't had a crackpot theory in, well, ever.

I am going to go out on a limb and say that wine-soaked and seriously tried at every turn Tyrion has a strong immune system, and he is a Targ. In Dance, Tywin was not happy about the fact the Mad King kept up the practice of King's rights with the bride. If the Mad King might have been the father of Jaime and Cersei, perhaps that is why Tywin did not name his first born son Ty...something. (I have wondered about that. Has someone covered that before?) But what if the Mad King took his pleasure with her later unbeknownst to Tywinn, and Tyrion is the product of that union?

Joanna lived at Casterly Rock, raising Cersei and Jaime. Aerys came to Casterly Rock only once, because Tywin had thrown him a Tourney, but that was after Joanna had died (Joanna died in 274, the tourney was held in 276, several months before the Defiance of Duskendale). So when would Aerys have raped Joanna to get her pregnant with Tyrion?

Also, Tywins father Tytos was a third son. And not all the Lannister Lords have names beginning with Ty. Tywin had brothers named Gerion and Kevan, for example. Joanna's brother is named Stafford. And there's the cousin named Damion. Several Lannister Kings were named, Tommen (when the Lannisters still had Brightroar), Lancel and Loren. Lord Damon Lannister held Casterly Rock during the reign of Daeron II.

So it's not that they usually give the heir a name starting with Ty. It's just something used a lot, just like the Targaryens use various variations on Aemon, like, Aegon, Aemond, Aerion, Gaemon, Maegon, Daemon and Haegon. The Starks use the name Brandon a lot, and not always for their first borns. Ned's brother was a firstborn son named Brandon, but Ned's own son Bran was his second son.

The Ty thing is simply tradition, but not an unwritten rule in the family. Tywin loved Joanna, so Joanna probably had something to say about the names as well. And especially in her side of the family there seem to be few Ty's, although I'm not really sure how closely related they are. No sister or other living brother of Tytos have been mentioned, only the two dead brothers.

Also, if Tywin knew Jaime and Cersei were product of Aerys raping Joanne during the wedding night, should he not be glad that Jaime took the KG vows? Denying him the chances of ever getting Casterly Rock (according to law)? Instead, Tywin is furious, and years later, when Jaime is captured, he is genuinly worried about his safety, but not so much about Tyrions safety when Tyrion is in trouble.

But my best argument against this is the name thing I've written here.

On a non-crackpot note, I think that Jon had it before he rescued Tyrion. He just takes it too calmly that he has it when Martin tells us.

That's because JonCon had discovered it himself before we were told about it. There's a difference. If Martin had discribed us the scene where JonCon first notices the Greyscale, then yes, he probably would not have been this calm. But when he shows us Jon at Griffin's Roost, Jon is already aware of the Greyscale. So no reason to panic about things you cannot chance, and try to do the most logical thing you can do: try the treatment to slow the sickness. He knows by now he will die. It's only the timing that he can try to change. But it's completely in his character to stary calm once he's known for a while.

And if he indeed contracted the disease before, when was that? When could he poddibly have gotten the sickness? It's a slowspreading sickness, I know, but Tyrion had been with them a fair amount of time. And the sickness isn't that far spread when Jon arrives in Westeros. So I ask you, when? Because I don't see any other time where it might have happened.

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We don't know why for sure, but his personality has something to do with it, I think. In his first chapter, The Lost Lord, he thinks to himself:

"He was sick of hiding, sick of waiting, sick of caution. I do not have time enough for caution."

Perhaps he didn't want to be cautious, which he should have been. They only worried about Tyrion because he had been in contact with the stone men, but JonCon hadn't. And since he was tired of being cautious, he didn't treat himself with the vinegar.

I was under the impression that his quote from JonCon isn't about getting the greyscale, but it's his thoughts about the situation now that he has it. He doesn't want to wait and hide Aegon anymore, and doesn't have time to be cautios _because_ he now has greyscale. If he hadn't gotten the illness, then he might have been more careful with how they go forth with their plan of conquering Westeros, but now that he knows he's going to be a petrified Griffin soon, it doesn't really matter.

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I was under the impression that his quote from JonCon isn't about getting the greyscale, but it's his thoughts about the situation now that he has it. He doesn't want to wait and hide Aegon anymore, and doesn't have time to be cautios _because_ he now has greyscale. If he hadn't gotten the illness, then he might have been more careful with how they go forth with their plan of conquering Westeros, but now that he knows he's going to be a petrified Griffin soon, it doesn't really matter.

I didn't quote that sentence to show how JonCon is feeling about getting the greyscale. It was about showing his character. He's tired of being cautious, so when the chance appeared that he could be possibly infected with greyscale (though he might have viewed the possibility of being infected small as he hadn't been touched by a stone man), he didn't want to be cautious, because he had been for so long, and he was tired of it. That could be why he hadn't made himself receive any precautionary treatment for the greyscale.

I was just trying to show his character, which could point us in the direction of why he made the choise not to use the treatment as a precaution as Tyrion had.

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Is it just me or is Jon Snow's scheme to switch Gilly and Val's babies a little misbegotten? If Stannis/Melisandre clues into this Jon's going to incur their wrath, and if they don't then Gilly's baby might burn. Or is that just a sacrifice "Lord Snow" is willing to make? Actually - how is it Melisandre hasn't found out about this - isn't this the sort of information the Lord of Light would be apt to throw her way?



In the same vein - Are Melisandre's "visions" purely visual or is there an audio portion as well?

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Is it just me or is Jon Snow's scheme to switch Gilly and Val's babies a little misbegotten? If Stannis/Melisandre clues into this Jon's going to incur their wrath, and if they don't then Gilly's baby might burn. Or is that just a sacrifice "Lord Snow" is willing to make? Actually - how is it Melisandre hasn't found out about this - isn't this the sort of information the Lord of Light would be apt to throw her way?

According to Val, Mel did know, but let it happen as it suited her. Jon all but stated that if Mel and Stannis intended to burn Gilly's baby he would reveal the child's identity as Stannis wouldn't let Mel sacrifice an innocent child as he wants to win the free folk.

In the same vein - Are Melisandre's "visions" purely visual or is there an audio portion as well?

she heard the whispered name Jon Snow.

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I don't know whether this has been covered before but I can't find it, during the Margery/Cersei trial was it proven or said that Pycelle lied about brewing moon tea for Margery? I know that he is primarily loyal to the Lannisters so I presumed he was lying but just wondered was it said outright.

All we have heard so far in the books are accusations, leading to the arrests of Cersei and Margaery. The trials should be in TWOW. (nothing proven yet)

Kevan is getting ready to go up to dinner with Cersie, and Pycelle starts mewing about how he should not have said he gave the moon tea to Marg, but Cersei was insistent. Pycelle owes her a lot. But it seems he was going to withdraw that accusation. I have no idea how these trials work -- if there are all as ridiculously massaged as Tyrion's at the Vale and Tryrion's at KL, Marg could still have a problem.

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Kevan is getting ready to go up to dinner with Cersie, and Pycelle starts mewing about how he should not have said he gave the moon tea to Marg, but Cersei was insistent. Pycelle owes her a lot. But it seems he was going to withdraw that accusation. I have no idea how these trials work -- if there are all as ridiculously massaged as Tyrion's at the Vale and Tryrion's at KL, Marg could still have a problem.

Its going to be a trail by the Faith so unless Tyene Sand arrives in time, I can imagine it would go pretty fairly. Fairer than the Tyrion Trial(s) for definite. Someone also mentions (Kevan?) that the evidence against Marg is very weak. They only have the testimony of the Blue Bard (Wat) who is currently insane as a result of being tortured.

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Quick question with some small speculation...



The final Jon chapter, when he is getting stabbed by his brothers, it was described that his wound was 'smoking'. I personally have never been stabbed in the cold so I don't know if that actually happens, but regardless I think GRRM put it in there as one of his little hints. What do you think this means? I was thinking either he does actually die and is reborn as Azor Ahai (not 100% on the guidelines of the prophecy). Or it just means he is Targaryen for some reason?


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Quick question with some small speculation...

The final Jon chapter, when he is getting stabbed by his brothers, it was described that his wound was 'smoking'. I personally have never been stabbed in the cold so I don't know if that actually happens, but regardless I think GRRM put it in there as one of his little hints. What do you think this means? I was thinking either he does actually die and is reborn as Azor Ahai (not 100% on the guidelines of the prophecy). Or it just means he is Targaryen for some reason?

The body temperature of a healthy person is 37 degrees celcius, and at the Wall it's a bit below freezing point. Perhaps it was meant that the wound felt like it was smoking, because of the big temperature difference.

But I also like your interpretation a lot, that his wound is smoking because of his Targaryen blood. I personally believe R+L=J so it could be. Drogons wound from the pit was also described as smoking, so perhaps that's the connection that we're supposed to make between this?

When I read that part of the story, I simply assumed it was because of the temperature difference, but perhaps you are right, and there is more to it.

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His father hates him! as only the husband of a raped wife could hate. The mismatched black eye could be a clue as well.

Or a man who hates anyone mocking his family. Dwarves are generally comedic performers. Also were he the product of rape I highly doubt Tywin would keep him and be so insistent that he is treated as a Lannister. Aaaand I would imagine she would have tried moon tea. Dunno how effective that stuff is, but so far it seems to be. The rest is intriguing though.

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I agree on not knowing what will happen north of the wall.

But lets be honest, benjen is most likely not alive anymore, and even if he is, the life of one isn't as important as the entire realm.

Pretty sure Benjen is Coldhands. Would explain the way he hides his face. That or Coldhands suffered some horrible facial disfigurement when he was killed, which is equally likely. But if Coldhands is Benjen it might help explain why this particular wight seems to be a good(ish?) guy, if Benjen was a particularly strong character.

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I have a question. I am in the process of re-reading aDwD for the second time. I just came across The Wayward Bride Asha POV. What struck me, that I had not noticed in past readings, was that she burned the piece of Theon's skin that Ramsey Bolton sent her. What I am asking is if this act, in which Asha, "... held [the skin] to the candle and watched the smoke curl up, until the last of it had been consumed and he flame was licking at her finger" (333). What I am asking is, can this act be seen as an offering to the Red God. At this point, Balon is dead, and Theon a king, in the sense of the word used by Mel when speaking of the power of king's blood. Could this be one of the reason's that Asha survived her encounter with the Northmen working with Stannis? Being the kin of the King of the Ironborn, IMO, would definitely incur the wroth of the Northmen, yet she survives the encounter do to Stannis' arrival.


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Everyone keeps mentioning the ships from cola tips to fight dany.....buuut didn't the voila teen ships carry the golden company overseas back to westeros?

Not the entire fleet but a few warships with all the other ships being merchant vessels. The Volantenes want to save their fleet for Dany.

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So I was reading through ADwD again the other day and noticed that when Bran first met Bloodraven, he asked him if he was the Three-Eyed Crow and BR says something like, "yeah, I was a crow at one point in time." I thought this was kind of odd though, as Bloodraven doesn't really act like he knows what Bran's on about. And then there is that bit about Euron having these dreams that he could fly, and being called Crow's Eye and all that just gave me this odd sense of unease. Not implying Euron is the TEC, but that maybe the TEC is something else altogether - probably not, but eh, it still kinda creeps me out.



Could just be how BR manifests himself visually to Bran - and it's like a proprietary vision of Bran's.


Edited by Røyksopp

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So I was reading through ADwD again the other day and noticed that when Bran first met Bloodraven, he asked him if he was the Three-Eyed Crow and BR says something like, "yeah, I was a crow at one point in time." I thought this was kind of odd though, as Bloodraven doesn't really act like he knows what Bran's on about. And then there is that bit about Euron having these dreams that he could fly, and being called Crow's Eye and all that just gave me this odd sense of unease. Not implying Euron is the TEC, but that maybe the TEC is something else altogether - probably not, but eh, it still kinda creeps me out.

Could just be how BR manifests himself visually to Bran - and it's like a proprietary vision of Bran's.

I noted that too. I wonder whether BR is aware of himself appearing as a 3-eyed raven in the spirit world. That would be very interesting if the dreams and visions sent by glass candles assume symbolic forms in spirit world.

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