Edric's telling of Ned and Ashara

[corbon]

Edric mentions that Ned and Ashara fell in love at Harrenhal. But there seems to be support for the theory Brandon was the Stark in question.

My question is, why was Edric told this story of Ned and Ashara if it was not true? He has already been told Wylla was Jon's mother, so they are not selling that story. Or is it just true that they fell in love at the tournament?

It could be true. However, when you look at it closely, we have zero actual reliable evidence of such love. Every piece of evidence that suggests they were in love comes from someone not present at the tourney.

Or it could be a 'nice' story that helps explain/cover an embarrassing (and/or secretly false) part of family history - the suicide of a young noblewoman.

I think its established that Ned loved or at least had a crush on Ashara Dayne regardless of who's the father of who.

Its very much not, in fact looked at closely, it does not fit at all.

We have a relatively large number of statements to such effect, but not one by someone who was actually present. They are all rumours, and they are adequately explained by Ned bringing Jon out of Starfall while Ashara suicides for Cersei, Catelyn, WInterfell men etc, and 3rd hand family 'lore' covering dirty secrets for 12 year old Ned Dayne.

The KotLT story tells us nothing, and if anything, points more to Brandon than Ned.

Barristan, who was present, and paying close attention as he was in love with Ashara, thinks that young girls (of which his known experience consists of Ashara and Dany) always pick 'fire' men over 'mud' men. Thats a huge sign Ashara didn't pick Ned, who is the quintessential mud man (and possibly did pick Brandon, who is a quintessential fire man).

I guess it depends on whether they were waiting for her to reach and appropriate age or because she was ruling starfall during Edrics minority. Most likely she was only a kid when this went on

Indeed, if she was even born.

There is no indication anywhere she is ruling Starfall, right?

She has been 6 years betrothed to Beric Dondarrion already. He's a Lord, and in his mid 20s, so any reason for the betrothal not being completed as not likely to be at his end. At her end, the usual reason is youth, and unless she is around 30+ (very very old to be unmarried) she was too young 20 years ago to really be understanding and directly connected with what was going on.

I agree. What we know is that Brandon asked Ashara to dance with Ned and they danced, nothing more.

Well, yes, but you are trying to prove the wrong point with this. Thats also all we know about Ned and Ashara, and note that Ned was too shy to ask and Ashara did what Brandon asked her to.

The fact is that Ned + Ashara doesn't gel with Ned's character, his complete lack of thinking about her, with Barristan's (our only first hand witness) observations, nor even with the KotLT story. Brandon + Ashara gels with all three.

When you couple this with the fact that all the N+A rumours we hear have clear and obvious alternate foundations...

[corbon]

I think Brandon was faithful to his Ryswell girl.

I also dont think he would screw over Ned since Ned held him in such high regards as to give him a statue in the crypts.

Sure but there is no screwing over Ned. We don't actually have anything solid to point to Ned being particularly interested in Ashara.

Also, Ashara is too lowborn to be trying to marry Brandon anyway.

Ahh, no. The Daynes are one of the most famous and storied Houses in Westeros. Marriages between Great Houses are actually extremely rare - until Rickard starts doing this to his kids, almost certainly part of a political agenda, we hear of almost none.

Ashara Dayne is a companion to the future Queen, and her brother is the closest companion of the future King. She's got to be one of the most eligible young women in all of Westeros, and a good catch for a second son with no real prospects.

[Dr. Pepper]

The one thing that bothered me all this time is how Edric found out about Ned/Ashara or even that Jon and he are `brothers by milk`. I mean, especially this about `brothers`, it isn`t something you expect to be public knowledge. Did Wylla told Edric all of this? I doubt it...If Wylla isn`t Jon`s mother, she had to be his wetnurse, and therefore she would never mention Jon. She is supposed to keep a secret, right?

Well, she did apparently keep the secret. No one at Starfall seems to be talking about how Lyanna and Rhaegar are Jon's parents. The Wylla story seems to be one that Ned was using anyway, considering what he had told Robert. Yes, according to Edric, Wylla was both his and Jon's wetnurse making Edric and Jon milk brothers. Edric Dayne probably heard stories around Starfall about Ned Stark and asked about them.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Well, yes, but you are trying to prove the wrong point with this. Thats also all we know about Ned and Ashara, and note that Ned was too shy to ask and Ashara did what Brandon asked her to.

I am not trying to prove anything. I just mention what we know, not what we guess not what we assume. Just what we know.

[eggs]

Sure but there is no screwing over Ned. We don't actually have anything solid to point to Ned being particularly interested in Ashara.

my post was in response to Howard Hughes.

Ahh, no. The Daynes are one of the most famous and storied Houses in Westeros. Marriages between Great Houses are actually extremely rare - until Rickard starts doing this to his kids, almost certainly part of a political agenda, we hear of almost none. Ashara Dayne is a companion to the future Queen, and her brother is the closest companion of the future King. She's got to be one of the most eligible young women in all of Westeros, and a good catch for a second son with no real prospects.

I dont remember the Daynes being stated to be particularly powerful or important, and Starfall is way too far south to be of any use to Rickard. Great houses usually marry bannermen to keep them loyal or other great houses to tie regions together. Ashara being the queens companion matters little and Brandon was no second son.

[VaramyrSixchins]

Well, she did apparently keep the secret. No one at Starfall seems to be talking about how Lyanna and Rhaegar are Jon's parents. The Wyllat story seems to be one that Ned was using anyway, considering what he had told Robert. Yes, according to Edric, Wylla was both his and Jon's wetnurse making Edric and Jon milk brothers. Edric Dayne probably heard stories around Starfall about Ned Stark and asked about them.

I got the impression that Ned was more supplying a name for Robert's speculations with that exchange than actually putting forth a story.

You're right, though, that Edric would probably ask around about recent Dayne family history.

What I'd love to know is if Wylla was the wetnurse Cat mentioned being installed at WF when she came from Riverrun w infant Robb...

[willowbark]

My own leanings are that Eddard and Ashara did the deed at Harrenhal. Maybe the child she lost was his.

I do not think Edric Dayne was told everything, but his account that Eddard and Ashara fell in love sounds genuine.

Was Ahara "dishonoured" by Brandon Stark ? No, I doubt it. It seems to me his betrothal to Catelyn cut short what he had going on with Lady Barbrey (Ryswell, at the time). There's no evidence Brandon had anything going on with Ashara, and the speculation it may have been forced is just empty guesswork. If it was forced a certain "Bold" white knight would have cut Brandon to ribbons (not to mention her brother). There's nothing that says Brandon would do something like that (despite knowing how his own brother felt about her), and if he did, Eddard is not likely to forgive that either.

So I'm going to just stick with the more Occam's Razor style explanation: Eddard and Ashara did the horizontal dance too. Her "dishonour" was getting pregnant from it, and of course Brandon's death, Eddard's betrothal to Catelyn, and the rebellion meant Ashara couldn't marry him at that point, even if they both wanted to. And to top it off, after marrying another woman (and getting her pregnant on the first try too), he slays her brother. Reason enough to throw herself into the sea ? Probably.

This still leaves room for the theories that either her child was A) stillborn, or else B ) wasn't and could be various people.

I always thought that Harranhal was the same tourney where Rhaegar and Lyanna first met. If that is the case, then they met there, and there would have to be at least 9 months from that point to the Tower of Joy when Ned and Arther Dayne fought. Also, given that Ned had no previous betrothal, he would have been free to marry her until he was given the Tully betrothal after his brother's death, which occured after Lyanna went away with Rhaegar. (This was also enough time for Lyanna to have been kidnapped", Brandon rode to King's Landing to demand her return from the King, was captured by the king, king sends word back to Winterfell for the Stark dad to come to King's Landing, the dad comes down, and dad and Brandon are killed together. King calls for Jon arryn to hand over Ned, Arryn refuses and raises his banners, robert and Ned do likewise, and the war is born.)

It really seems to me, given all the timelines involved, that everything happened within less than a year, or else the timeline was longer, and there is much more to all the stories than what we know.

[Mladen]

I always thought that Harranhal was the same tourney where Rhaegar and Lyanna first met. If that is the case, then they met there, and there would have to be at least 9 months from that point to the Tower of Joy when Ned and Arther Dayne fought.

More like 2-2 and half years...

[willowbark]

Neither Edric nor his sister have first hand accounts of what happened, they were too young. My problem with Edric's story has always been the sudden incongruity of this tragic tale of love between Ned and Ashara and then he casually throws out the bit about Wylla being Jon's mother. Why in the world would he not assume Ashara was Jon's mother? I think the stillbirth is the answer.

As I said, the Dayne siblings are too young to know firsthand. Whether they got the story from servant rumors or if this is official Dayne family lore makes no matter. The point is the stillbirth had to have been known about amongst the people of Starfall. Otherwise, there would be no logical reason for Edric to assert Wylla as mom.

I'm firmly in the camp of Brandon doing the "dishonoring" of Ashara at Harrenhal. Selmy specifically cites Ashara's grief for the dishonorer as one of the reasons for her suicide. Ned was obviously still alive...

I like how in the books, many people refer to Ned in a way that makes him sound dull and honorable (as if that's a bad thing), and yet there's references to him getting Catelyn, Wylla and Ashara pregnant in a relatively short period of time (even though he's dull he's a ladies magnet) , but not marrying Ashara or Wylla (even though he's honorable), but he did take over his brother's betrothal at his brother's death (because he's honorable).

I am on Team Brandon for The Stark Who Impregnated Ashara title.

[VaramyrSixchins]

More like 2-2 and half years...

If it helps, Jaime is 15 when he's inducted to KG @ Harrenhal, and 17 when he kills the Mad King. The rebellion lasted a year, according to Bran. These are the reference points in the text that occur to me at the moment, but I'm sure I'm forgetting some...

[willowbark]

More like 2-2 and half years...

But isn't this the only reference to Ned and Ashara meeting until he goes to give her her brother's sword?

Or was that when he was supposed to have dishonored her? "Here's the sword of your brother I recently killed, here's the baby I'm going to tell my wife I got had with another woman, and by the way....have you been dishonored yet?" I guess I shouldn't find that odd, given the other scenes we've read over the years.

[willowbark]

If it helps, Jaime is 15 when he's inducted to KG @ Harrenhal, and 17 when he kills the Mad King. The rebellion lasted a year, according to Bran. These are the reference points in the text that occur to me at the moment, but I'm sure I'm forgetting some...

I get pretty confused with the calandar of events with so many characters and events - has anyone put together a timeline of events yet? I didn't find any on here, but I'll try to search for one and see if there is any on another website.

[Daeron Targaryen Snow]

I think they both did fall in love at Harrenhal i would like to think that Ned knocked her up.

[Mladen]

Or was that when he was supposed to have dishonored her? "Here's the sword of your brother I recently killed, here's the baby I'm going to tell my wife I got had with another woman, and by the way....have you been dishonored yet?" I guess I shouldn't find that odd, given the other scenes we've read over the years.

Yes, it is. They met in Harrenhall, and then 2 years after in Starfall. What I believe happenned was that Ashara loved Brandon, got pregnant with him, and due to his very public execution lost it. Then, she retreat in Starfall, from where she took care of Lyanna(possibly sent her Wylla) while Rhaegar was gone. When Ned and Howland came to Lyanna, Wylla told them to go to Starfall to Ashara, where they made plans to explain Jon`s existence to the world.

[eggs]

I like how in the books, many people refer to Ned in a way that makes him sound dull and honorable (as if that's a bad thing), and yet there's references to him getting Catelyn, Wylla and Ashara pregnant in a relatively short period of time (even though he's dull he's a ladies magnet) , but not marrying Ashara or Wylla (even though he's honorable), but he did take over his brother's betrothal at his brother's death (because he's honorable). I am on Team Brandon for The Stark Who Impregnated Ashara title.

Its kind of irrelevant, but was Ned actually dull? I cant really picture him as being a loser like Quentyn.

[Apple the Great]

I also dont think he would screw over Ned since Ned held him in such high regards as to give him a statue in the crypts.

I think this is an excellent point. Ned putting a statue of Brandon (and Lyanna) in the crypts is unparallelled in the history of Winterfell. If Ned was indeed interested in Ashara, I doubt he'd put up a statue of Brandon if Brandon had slept with Ashara, knowing about Ned's feelings. Ned's dutiful, but really...?! I think Ned was interested in Ashara, since otherwise why would he have asked Brandon to ask her to dance? Also, he needn't have gone to Starfall to bring back the sword of Arthur Dayne in person, unless he wanted to see Ashara, whom maybe he hadn't seen since Harrenhal. Also, when Bran asks about the Kingsguard, Ned tells him about the Arthur Dayne and is then sad - perhaps this is because of the upset it caused Ashara? Edric Dayne says that his aunt told him that her sister and Ned Stark fell in love at Harrenhal. Admittedly this is a story related by a nephew about an aunt he never knew, and there is every possibility that his family members were lying to portray Ashara in a better light, however, would they really need to lie about them being in love?

I think that Ned and Ashara did indeed fall in love, and Brandon was the one simply who had the balls to ask her for a dance on behalf of Ned. However, after Brandon died, Ned was compelled to marry Cat to fulfil the alliance between the North and the Riverlands, meaning he had to snub Ashara (with whom he was possibly secretly betrothed or married) and he went off to war. During the course of this war, Ned came up against, and had to kill Ser Arthur Dayne, and Ned went to see Ashara on the pretext of delivering his sword, to explain what had happened and why they couldn't be together. Grief that the one she loved had married another (dishonouring her) and had also killed her brother combined might have convinced her to kill herself. Cat even remembers that at her bedding with Ned, it felt more like he was doing his duty than because he wanted her. I don't really see any reason beyond pure cynicism to disbelieve that Ned and Ashara loved each other.

And then there is the issue of any babies she may have had. I think without more information it's very hard to put together a sound theory on her children, i.e. who would be the father? From Harrenhal to ToJ is about 2 years, so any child of hers with Ned would have been born over a year before she killed herself. It is possible that this is the case and she was holding out to have more children with Ned, and when he came to tell her the news, it broke her... I guess the alternatives are that she was pregnant and then gave birth to a still born child by someone else, or she was never pregnant. I don't know how likely it would have been for Ned to have been able to see her between Harrenhal and the end of Robert's Rebellion. I know this probably stinks of crack so I would welcome any thoughts.

[Thendel]

What corbon said.

Somber, dutiful Ned just doesn't seem the type to "dishonor" a woman like Ashara, let alone catch her attention. Judging by the men she danced with at Harrenhall, she was rather popular, and if she was going to pick someone among the Starks, I'm not sure Ned would stand much of a chance next to the charismatic Brandon, especially not with a girl barely 20 years old. And as corbon pointed out, it'd be rather odd when Barristan muses young girls prefer fire over mud, and yet the one woman he has ever loved happened to pick mud over fire - I'd think her choice would have influenced him to assume differently. Also, it'd be odd if Barristan referred to Ned Stark, a man he knew and by all accounts respected, as "Stark".

[Thendel]

Its kind of irrelevant, but was Ned actually dull? I cant really picture him as being a loser like Quentyn.

He's no wisecracker, but there's some quiet warmth to him, some charisma that made his bannermen love him. I'd say he radiates some quiet fortitude, some stoicness, that inspires people. But on the other hand, he's rather surly when people poke fun at him, and Robert has remarked that he should take the hedgehog for his sigil, given how prickly he is. And then there's the cold grey eyes that can put off many a stranger.

But at Quentyn's age, with all the insecurity of youth, I don't think Ned was much different from Quentyn in terms of personality, particularly with Brandon around. The KotLT story identifies him as the quiet wolf.

[willowbark]

What corbon said.

Somber, dutiful Ned just doesn't seem the type to "dishonor" a woman like Ashara, let alone catch her attention. Judging by the men she danced with at Harrenhall, she was rather popular, and if she was going to pick someone among the Starks, I'm not sure Ned would stand much of a chance next to the charismatic Brandon, especially not with a girl barely 20 years old. And as corbon pointed out, it'd be rather odd when Barristan muses young girls prefer fire over mud, and yet the one woman he has ever loved happened to pick mud over fire - I'd think her choice would have influenced him to assume differently. Also, it'd be odd if Barristan referred to Ned Stark, a man he knew and by all accounts respected, as "Stark".

I agree. I wonder if Brandon's asking her to dance with his brother might have been his way of striking up a conversation. If he's already betrothed to Catelyn, and she's popular, then maybe he was pretending that he was an intermediary between the two as a public reason to stay close? I suspect that maybe GRRM was surprised at how many people were thinking of Jon being from Lyanna and Rhaegar after the first book, and thought to enhance any other speculation in further writings, just to confuse the issue. Is GRRM a sadist, by the way?

[Ser Adam Dayne]

Ashara would have been a great match for Ned had Brandon lived. She is by no means too "low born" for Ned or I would even contend Brandon. Sure, Rickard had "southron ambitions" with the Tullys, but the Daynes are an ancient house of great repute. As another poster pointed out, Ashara's brother is the future kings closest companion AND probably the greatest knight in the realm. And oh yeah, Ashara is by all accounts the head lady in waiting to the future queen. I'd say their pedigree is undeniable in that regard.

There is clearly a lot we don't know, and what we can speculate. We do know that Ned liked Ashara, and that she turned to "Stark". This is Martin just being coy and not wanting to give anything away. His characters reveal only what he wants them to reveal. Ned is the only POV character we've had thus far that knows everything about the TOJ and the Daynes. Septa Lemore probably is Ashara, so maybe we'll hear from her down the road, and everybody's favorite MIA lord, Howland Reed.