Edric's telling of Ned and Ashara

[corbon]

For me it's less about if he did or didn't and more about being frustrated that a lot of people think that Ned can do no dishonorable thing ever because of how he acted when he was thirty sum years old, a father of six, and lord paramount of the biggest region in Westeros, but can't for a moment believe he may have slipped up once when he was young and probably naive and hormonal.

A common argument I see when people want to prove Ned would never do something is that "he's too honorable", but a lot of times they use this argument for events that may or may not have taken place in his teens. Ex. Sleeping with Ashara.

I mean, I'm sure none of us thought Robb was capable of the Jeyne Westerling debacle before it happened or Jon breaking his vows, because they were raised to be honorable like Ned. But both of them messed up, so maybe Ned did too.

Right?

No, not right.

You seem to be equating an argument with a proof - its just one piece of evidence among many. To be fair, many people can be sloppy about making the definition, or difference, clear. But also, in casual forum language, 'proof' that isn't explicitly called such is often really just intended to mean 'highly probable', but many people (especially those following a competing theory) think of it as being called proof anyway. Of course there are the exceptions and outliers that simply use the word 'proof' incorrectly.

We are given textual reference to Ned in his teens. He was shy, and 'never the boy he was'. They don't provide proof that he never slipped up but they do provide enough information so that the default should be that he probably didn't slip up, since his character in his teens is implicitly painted with the same strokes as his character later. Thats not proof, but it is a supporting piece of evidence.

Then put all the evidence together, without making any further assumptions in either direction.

- it seems very out of character according to his later character

- his early character is implictly painted as similar to his later character

- there is actually no solid evidence for him 'slipping up'

- there is implicative evidence that Ashara chose Brandon or another like Brandon, not Ned - thus he has probably not slipped up with her

- the scenario of slipping up with Wylla fails in myriad respects

- the scenario of him slipping up with anyone the fishermans daughter fails in several respects and has extremely dubious providence

- thus there is no scenario that actually sees him slipping up

He still may have, but there is stuff that points to him not doing so, and nothing that truly points to him doing so. Ergo, the conclusion is that he probably never did slip up. But its not guaranteed.

[alienarea]

Not really a theory so I call it an interesting idea:

We do not know exactly when Ashara had the stillborn daughter and when Lyanna gave birth. Maybe Ashara served as Lyanna's wetnurse because she still had milk from her stillborn?

- it would surely help to avoid gossip about the ToJ

- Lyanna would have know Ashara and since she danced with Ned and did whatever with Brandon trusted her

- it explains how Ned found the ToJ and knew whom to expect there - he asked Ashara

- it might help explain why Ned could kill Arthur - Howland throwing in a line about Ashara?

- One of the promises Lyanna asked of Ned could have been related to Ashara

- The "They found him" line suggesting Howland Reed plus one person found Ned with dead Lyanna - was it Howland plus Ashara, who followed Ned and his men a little later because she cared for Lyanna, Ned and Arthur? That would solve how Jon got milk while Ned and Howland build the cairns

Not a theory, but interesting :dunno:

[Lady Howell]

No, not right.

You seem to be equating an argument with a proof - its just one piece of evidence among many. To be fair, many people can be sloppy about making the definition, or difference, clear. But also, in casual forum language, 'proof' that isn't explicitly called such is often really just intended to mean 'highly probable', but many people (especially those following a competing theory) think of it as being called proof anyway. Of course there are the exceptions and outliers that simply use the word 'proof' incorrectly.

We are given textual reference to Ned in his teens. He was shy, and 'never the boy he was'. They don't provide proof that he never slipped up but they do provide enough information so that the default should be that he probably didn't slip up, since his character in his teens is implicitly painted with the same strokes as his character later. Thats not proof, but it is a supporting piece of evidence.

Then put all the evidence together, without making any further assumptions in either direction.

- it seems very out of character according to his later character

- his early character is implictly painted as similar to his later character

- there is actually no solid evidence for him 'slipping up'

- there is implicative evidence that Ashara chose Brandon or another like Brandon, not Ned - thus he has probably not slipped up with her

- the scenario of slipping up with Wylla fails in myriad respects

- the scenario of him slipping up with anyone the fishermans daughter fails in several respects and has extremely dubious providence

- thus there is no scenario that actually sees him slipping up

He still may have, but there is stuff that points to him not doing so, and nothing that truly points to him doing so. Ergo, the conclusion is that he probably never did slip up. But its not guaranteed.

I wasn't using that as any sort of proof, just voicing frustration that apparently most people can't even consider the idea a teenager who grew up to be an extremely honorable man didn't at least once make a mistake. Not that I'm saying Ned did, but he could have, and when some people even so much as mention that possiblity on other threads I've seen people get so butt-hurt over it it's actually annoying. Unlike you, they didn't present evidence in their statements that even as a teen he was really honorable, but basically just said things like 'lol. Ned was too honorable to do /that/' and nothing more.

If you want my honest opinion of Ashara thing, I'd like it to be Ned if only so that way he would have at least a bit of fun or some sort of slip up when he was young, but I also agree that it was most likely Brandon.

[Bael's Bastard]

I think Edric's account is about as reliable as Bran's account of Rhaegar and Lyanna. Not at all. Just repeating what he has heard, but no real insight into what happened.

[Ludd]

For what it is worth, the idea of teenage Ned sleeping with a girl he deeply loved does not seem especially dishonourable, assuming that like Robb he planned to marry her, especially if she became pregnant.

Now we know he was attracted to Ashara and speaks no ill of her.

We also know via Barristan that Ashara turned to a Stark for help AFTER she had been dishonoured, suggesting it was not a Stark who did the dishonouring but rather a Stark that helped. Ned is the obvious Stark for helping her. As for who did the dishonouring, it could have been any one of a number of people but Aerys, seems the most likely

[corbon]

Now we know he was attracted to Ashara

:bang:

How?

[Ludd]

Because he wanted to Dance with her at Harrenhall.

[corbon]

Because he wanted to Dance with her at Harrenhall.

The crannogman saw a maid with laughing purple eyes dance with a white sword, a red snake, and the lord of griffins, and lastly with the quiet wolf...but only after the wild wolf spoke to her on behalf of a brother too shy to leave his bench.

It doesn't say Ned wanted to dance with her, just that she did so only after Brandon spoke to her. Even 'on his behalf' does not require Ned's input.

[Mayura]

I am personally not against the idea of Ashara x Ned:

- Brandon was bethrothed to Cat, Ned was a single man at the time, it doesn't really matter whether they were lovers at Harrenhal.

- It seems unlikely that Brandon was Ashara's lover, as it is mentionned that following his bethrothal to Catelyn Stark, Brandon stopped fooling around with his lover Barbrey. Therefore, why would he start fooling around with another woman?

The problem I have is more about Ashara's baby as the timeline doesn't fit if Barristan can be trusted:

- Ashara was dishonored in Harrenhal (281 IIRC) and allegedly impregnated there.

- We know that Aegon was born during the year preceding RR and that Elia wasn't massively pregnant at Harrehal.

- Robert's Rebellion happened in 282, so, technically, Ashara's stillborn baby should have been born around the beginning of the Rebellion or even a bit before that (9 months of pregnancy).

- But then the Rebellion lasts until 283 (one year) and Ned goes to see Ashara some short time after the end of the Rebellion. But anyway, following the timeline, it should mean that it has been at least a year since Ashara gave birth to her stillborn child.

- However, Barristan (ADWD) says that Ashara gave birth to a stillborn daughter and threw herself from the tower shortly after --> what does that actually mean? Does Barristan consider that +1 year after the still birth is "shortly after" or does it mean that Ashara was pregnant during the Rebellion and had that stillborn daughter around the time of the end of the Rebellion? For people to believe Jon could be Ashara's son by Ned, it must somehow mean that Ashara was pregnant during the time of RR, as Jon was around Robb's age when he reached Winterfell (hence newborn).

My question is: what happened to the Harrenhal baby? This timeline seems weird, but yet, maybe it's just Barristan who is mistaking and giving misdirection by saying "she jumped shortly after the stillbirth".

[Bold Barry Whitebeard]

"there is implicative evidence that Ashara chose Brandon or another like Brandon, not Ned - thus he has probably not slipped up with her"

Is there? I would argue that from Barristan's perspective, NED Stark is a fire man, not a mud man.

Sure, we know that Ned is a mud man, because we've been privy to POV. Barristan hasn't. Barristan barely knows Ned. From Barristan's perspective, Ned is Robert's closest friend, one of the glorious rebels. Ned is the man who walked away from the fight with Arthur Dayne at the ToJ. Ned is the one who came to KL as hand, stood up to Robert about the tourney and about assasinating Danaerys, even to the point of resigning his post. Ned got into a street fight with Jaime Lannister, and de facto declared war on the Lannisters by sending Lord Beric after the Mountain. Ned then tried to usurp the throne from Joffrey and give it to Stannis. These don't look like the actions of a 'mud man', they look like the actions of a 'fire man'.

[lareine]

I am not saying that Lady Ashara stayed at Harrenhal after the tournament was over. I am saying she went back to Harrenhal more than a year after the tournament was over, met Lord Eddard there and became pregnant, and then she died about 9 or 10 months after that.

This is what Mr. Martin had to say about Lady Ashara's activities during Robert's Rebellion:

I don't think it is possible that Brandon Stark (or anyone else) dishonored Lady Ashara during the tournament at Harrenhal because if that happened she would have had the baby or stillbirth a year to 15 months or more before killing herself and Ser Barristan says she killed herself "soon after" the stillbirth.

Your idea that when Ser Barristan recalls Asharha's disgrace at 'Harrenhal' he's thinking about the castle rather than the tournament is really interesting. That would definitely make the range of time she could have gotten pregnant much larger. She could have travelled from King's Landing to Harrenhal anytime during the year between the tournament and the outbreak of the rebellion on any number of acceptable pretenses. I know we don't know for sure where everyone was during this time period, but is it possible that Brandon may have been at Riverrun or at least in the Riverlands close to the outbreak of the rebellion? Looking at the map, Harrenhal looks like it's halfway between Riverrun and King's Landing.

[Bael's Bastard]

On the one hand I think Barristan gives us some interesting information we might not get elsewhere, but on the other I think he sees many things romantically, and not necessarily how they were. He seems to see love triangles as the cause of almost every war he mentions or talks about, where we seem to know enough from other sources to see other causes. And I am not sure how much he really knew Ashara. He has a very romantic view of her and how a victory at Harranhal or professing his love might have saved her. I am not sure he has any real insight into Ashara having a child or what did or did not happen to that child.

[Ser Leftwich]

- It seems unlikely that Brandon was Ashara's lover, as it is mentionned that following his bethrothal to Catelyn Stark, Brandon stopped fooling around with his lover Barbrey. Therefore, why would he start fooling around with another woman?

“The day I learned that Brandon was to marry Catelyn Tully, though … there was nothing sweet about that pain. He never wanted her, I promise you that. He told me so, on our last night together … but Rickard Stark had great ambitions too. ..." ADwD p. 547

The day Barbrey found out about the betrothal and their last night together need not necessarily have been the same day. It could have been years.

[Saint Saga]

I think Ned and Ashara loved each other,but Brandon liked to deflorate virgins.In the first book Ned appears to have a problem about Brandon,maybe that was because Brandon raped the Dayne lady.

[corbon]

Barristan barely knows Ned.

Barristan worked with him closely for several months when Ned was the Hand, and probably for most of a campaign against the Ironborn. He seems to know, understand and respect Ned well enough. I see where you are coming from, but I think that is a deliberate misrepresentation. He witnessed Brandon in action, and he had years noting Ned's quiet retirement to the north and growth of a family, as well as extensive personal contact.

Ned never flamed out early in a big bang. He did what he had to do, and retired quietly thereafter.

[Lord Damian]

Ned perhaps hoped to marry Ashara but had to marry Cat, as was customary when Brandon died and Ned took his place. If Ashara was intent on Ned and she did kill herself, perhaps this was a reason. However, I am of the belief that Ashara is very much alive and perhaps her child by "A" Stark is too.

[Jazzman]

A cruel truth may be that Ned and Ashara DID fall in love but Brandon being Brandon maybe he wanted her for himself. Brandon was the heir to Winterfell maybe Ashara played her hand and chose Brandon over Ned, and lost. Maybe it was Brandon's child and after she lost the baby she realized that her betrayal had not only cost her Ned but with Brandon dead she had absolutely nothing now. It wouldn't be the first time a guy or girl reached for the stars and fell face first in the mud.

This