Winter Fell?

[The Great Cornholio!]

Interesting that Brandon Stark (I believe he was also Brandon the Builder) was referred to as Ice Eyes - (wondering why anyone??)

For some reason I was unable to include the quote you found which mentioned the "Ice Eyes".

I remember another Stark being called that. But it wasnt Bran the Builder.

[Addam of Hull]

Interesting that Brandon Stark (I believe he was also Brandon the Builder) was referred to as Ice Eyes - (wondering why anyone??)

For some reason I was unable to include the quote you found which mentioned the "Ice Eyes".

When we look at why that particular Brandon is called Ice Eyes, there are two potential reasons: the coloration of his eyes and the particular way he watched and looked at others. An icy gaze in that later sense is noted throughout ASOIAF. Eddard and Jon are both described as giving people icy looks and I'm sure other people are as well. For the other part, we have to look at the three primary colors that are associated with Ice in ASOIAF - blue, white, and grey. According to AGOT:

By the time Jon left the armory, it was almost midday. The sun had broken through the clouds. He turned his back on it and lifted his eyes to the Wall, blazing blue and crystalline in the sunlight. Even after all these weeks, the sight of it still gave him the shivers. Centuries of windblown dirt had pocked and scoured it, covering it like a film, and it often seemed a pale grey, the color of an overcast sky… but when the sun caught it fair on a bright day, it shone, alive with light, a colossal blue-white cliff that filled up half the sky.

I think white eyes are probably right out. White is more associated with snow and weirwoods than anything else and a man with pure white eyes likely wouldn't be called Ice Eyes.

One possibility is that Ice Eyes actually had grey eyes which does seem a little counter-intuitive since a lot of Starks apparently have that coloration... but what if Brandon Ice Eyes is the progenitor of the current "Stark look" that includes brown hair, long face, and grey eyes, along with a lean frame? It's a little strange when you think about it because most of the Northerners tend to be big, hardy men with these shaggy beards and the Starks generally aren't. If Brandon Ice Eyes was the first Stark King to really possess this distinctive look, then its possible that he's called Ice Eyes because his eyes resembled the Wall on most days.

The most interesting possibility, I think, are blue eyes. Usually, pale blue tends to evoke the image of ice... but in ASOIAF it's unnaturally bright blue eyes that are associated with cold things. Maybe Brandon Ice Eyes had really bright blue eyes. If we think that him and Brandon the Builder are the same guy and go the more heretical route, it's possible he, and the other Starks, have the blood of the Others in their veins which might be responsible for the potential coloration of his eyes.

[Alia of the knife]

When we look at why that particular Brandon is called Ice Eyes, there are two potential reasons: the coloration of his eyes and the particular way he watched and looked at others. An icy gaze in that later sense is noted throughout ASOIAF. Eddard and Jon are both described as giving people icy looks and I'm sure other people are as well. For the other part, we have to look at the three primary colors that are associated with Ice in ASOIAF - blue, white, and grey. According to AGOT:

I think white eyes are probably right out. White is more associated with snow and weirwoods than anything else and a man with pure white eyes likely wouldn't be called Ice Eyes.

One possibility is that Ice Eyes actually had grey eyes which does seem a little counter-intuitive since a lot of Starks apparently have that coloration... but what if Brandon Ice Eyes is the progenitor of the current "Stark look" that includes brown hair, long face, and grey eyes, along with a lean frame? It's a little strange when you think about it because most of the Northerners tend to be big, hardy men with these shaggy beards and the Starks generally aren't. If Brandon Ice Eyes was the first Stark King to really possess this distinctive look, then its possible that he's called Ice Eyes because his eyes resembled the Wall on most days.

The most interesting possibility, I think, are blue eyes. Usually, pale blue tends to evoke the image of ice... but in ASOIAF it's unnaturally bright blue eyes that are associated with cold things. Maybe Brandon Ice Eyes had really bright blue eyes. If we think that him and Brandon the Builder are the same guy and go the more heretical route, it's possible he, and the other Starks, have the blood of the Others in their veins which might be responsible for the potential coloration of his eyes.

Thats genius. :bowdown:

Warging also plays into that as well I think. Perhaps Brandon and Lyanna, Bran, Arya, Robb and Jon, but not Rickard, Ned, Benjen, Rickon or Sansa, (that we know of).

And it parallels the Targaryens "blood of the dragon."

Some are: Dany, Rhaegar according to Jorah, Baelor Breakspear, etc.

Some are not: Viserys, Aerion Brightflame, etc.

[Addam of Hull]

Thats genius. :bowdown:

Warging also plays into that as well I think. Perhaps Brandon and Lyanna, Bran, Arya, Robb and Jon, but not Rickard, Ned, Benjen, Rickon or Sansa, (that we know of).

And it parallels the Targaryens "blood of the dragon."

Some are: Dany, Rhaegar according to Jorah, Baelor Breakspear, etc.

Some are not: Viserys, Aerion Brightflame, etc.

Well, we actually do know that all of the Stark children could have been Wargs, if given the chance, so it's likely that Rickon has developed warging abilities offscreen. Actually, I wouldn't be surprised if his warging tendencies have already caused his personality to become inherently more beastial. We know Bran, once he was able to warg actively, wanted to do it constantly and that being inside the skin of a beast can cause traits to rub off on the skinchanger, so I really wouldn't be surprised if Rickon is more savage than before AND it's not because of Skaagos.

And obviously the Targaryens don't literally have the blood of the dragons - though some of them sure seem to believe that they do - but I do think that the Starks may have an ancestor that was an Other at some point down the line.

When it comes to the Starks, though, thinking on it, there are two distinctive personality sets that end up manifesting in them. There are those who have "wolfsblood" and then who are cold and distant. Thinking on it, these traits manifest in most of the current Starks: Arya and Rickon are wild and untameable, possessing the so-called "wolfsblood", while Jon, Ned, and Sansa tend to manifest cold, impersonal masks, despite being caring on the inside. The outliers are Bran and Robb, but that's not actually that odd. I think these sets of traits manifest throughout the line of Starks, most likely, and the combination of them - of men who are seemingly cold, but wild - is probably what made the Kings of Winter considered to be hard, harsh men.

[Alia of the knife]

Well, we actually do know that all of the Stark children could have been Wargs, if given the chance, so it's likely that Rickon has developed warging abilities offscreen. Actually, I wouldn't be surprised if his warging tendencies have already caused his personality to become inherently more beastial. We know Bran, once he was able to warg actively, wanted to do it constantly and that being inside the skin of a beast can cause traits to rub off on the skinchanger, so I really wouldn't be surprised if Rickon is more savage than before AND it's not because of Skaagos.

And obviously the Targaryens don't literally have the blood of the dragons - though some of them sure seem to believe that they do - but I do think that the Starks may have an ancestor that was an Other at some point down the line.

When it comes to the Starks, though, thinking on it, there are two distinctive personality sets that end up manifesting in them. There are those who have "wolfsblood" and then who are cold and distant. Thinking on it, these traits manifest in most of the current Starks: Arya and Rickon are wild and untameable, possessing the so-called "wolfsblood", while Jon, Ned, and Sansa tend to manifest cold, impersonal masks, despite being caring on the inside. The outliers are Bran and Robb, but that's not actually that odd. I think these sets of traits manifest throughout the line of Starks, most likely, and the combination of them - of men who are seemingly cold, but wild - is probably what made the Kings of Winter considered to be hard, harsh men.

In terms of the blood of the dragon commentary.

Yes, many of them believe they do, but then, like the Starks there are a few Targs. who do genuinely seem to have supernatural connections, but not all, (i.e., Dany vs. Viserys).

And very true on Rickon.

[Addam of Hull]

In terms of the blood of the dragon commentary.

Yes, many of them believe they do, but then, like the Starks there are a few Targs. who do genuinely seem to have supernatural connections, but not all, (i.e., Dany vs. Viserys).

And very true on Rickon.

True enough. The supernatural connection does run stronger in some than others. Jon and Bran, most of all, but Arya as well, I think.

[evita mgfs]

When we look at why that particular Brandon is called Ice Eyes, there are two potential reasons: the coloration of his eyes and the particular way he watched and looked at others. An icy gaze in that later sense is noted throughout ASOIAF. Eddard and Jon are both described as giving people icy looks and I'm sure other people are as well. For the other part, we have to look at the three primary colors that are associated with Ice in ASOIAF - blue, white, and grey. According to AGOT:

I think white eyes are probably right out. White is more associated with snow and weirwoods than anything else and a man with pure white eyes likely wouldn't be called Ice Eyes.

One possibility is that Ice Eyes actually had grey eyes which does seem a little counter-intuitive since a lot of Starks apparently have that coloration... but what if Brandon Ice Eyes is the progenitor of the current "Stark look" that includes brown hair, long face, and grey eyes, along with a lean frame? It's a little strange when you think about it because most of the Northerners tend to be big, hardy men with these shaggy beards and the Starks generally aren't. If Brandon Ice Eyes was the first Stark King to really possess this distinctive look, then its possible that he's called Ice Eyes because his eyes resembled the Wall on most days.

The most interesting possibility, I think, are blue eyes. Usually, pale blue tends to evoke the image of ice... but in ASOIAF it's unnaturally bright blue eyes that are associated with cold things. Maybe Brandon Ice Eyes had really bright blue eyes. If we think that him and Brandon the Builder are the same guy and go the more heretical route, it's possible he, and the other Starks, have the blood of the Others in their veins which might be responsible for the potential coloration of his eyes.

:bowdown: :bowdown: WOLFSWOOD: SUPER ANALYSIS! I JUST FOUND A QUOTE THAT MIGHT WORK WITH YOUR THEORY.

I am involved in a reread, so we have been looking closely at Martin's repetitive language patterns, and your theory about the "blue" eyes may be supported by this "important" quote in AGoT POV Eddard, Chapter 40: Eddard is in a dream like state recalling the TOJ:

"Eddard!" she [Lyanna] called. A storm of rose petals blew across a blood-streaked sky, AS BLUE AS THE EYES OF DEATH."

What do you suppose this means? [Does the blood-streaked sky suggest the "comet"? Was the comet associated with the Prince TWP?] STORM is an applicable word choice for it aligns with the weather motif, but the "blue" eyes remind me of the Others, yes? The Heretics may already know about this. iT'S probably old news, :crying: but not to me. I just found it!

I also had parsed those "Wall" descriptions from Jon and Bran's POV's - I will look them up because both Jon and Bran share similar perceptions of the Wall, Bran in his 3EC dream - which may augment the "ice eyes".

Another good quote is when Tyrion says to Mormont to break the ice from his eyes. I'll find that as well. You inspired me with your ideas, and I have not even finished the thread to read Alia's posts. I hope I am not repeating something.

[evita mgfs]

True enough. The supernatural connection does run stronger in some than others. Jon and Bran, most of all, but Arya as well, I think.

:cheers: THE WOLFSWOOD: I just had to invite you to join our reread AGoT: Direwolves, Dragons [Eggs], Mormont's Raven, and Cats, Oh My! You sure seem to be on the same page as our group, and you have inspired ideas. Feel free to join us! We would be honored.

I'll find those other quotes I mentioned.

[Pelican]

Related to the OP and Winter/Winterfell, I've wondered if the White Walkers have been trying to move south because they are sensing a summons from Winterfell? Winter is Coming because it has been called?

On the Stark 'supernatural' connection:

Among the many old books that keep getting mentioned, my guess is that at least one traces the Stark generations back to their [probably surprising] beginning (Ned consulted a similar book to track Robert's offspring). It may have been considered important to track the special abilities that occasionally popped up in the Starks. Maybe the FM and Bloodraven got a peek at it.

Is there a special urgency to getting Ned's bones back to Winterfell? Most cultures try to return the bones of a fallen warrior back home, so it may be just that. Or maybe there's something to blood-red and bone-white of the weirwoods.

[redriver]

Related to the OP and Winter/Winterfell, I've wondered if the White Walkers have been trying to move south because they are sensing a summons from Winterfell? Winter is Coming because it has been called?

On the Stark 'supernatural' connection:

Among the many old books that keep getting mentioned, my guess is that at least one traces the Stark generations back to their [probably surprising] beginning (Ned consulted a similar book to track Robert's offspring). It may have been considered important to track the special abilities that occasionally popped up in the Starks. Maybe the FM and Bloodraven got a peek at it.

Is there a special urgency to getting Ned's bones back to Winterfell? Most cultures try to return the bones of a fallen warrior back home, so it may be just that. Or maybe there's something to blood-red and bone-white of the weirwoods.

I have an idea about the White Walkers possibly being drawn to Winterfell and more specifically,the crypts.Just as we're looking at the words and mottoes and how ancient they might be,this tradition of using iron swords to ward in the spirits of deceased Starks seems to be lost in the mists of time too.Every statue we've seen in the books has or had it's sword.

But we've only seen one level,there are more levels below,unexplored in the books.Theon thinks they may be partially collapsed.So what's down there?Well more dead Starks,but older ones,possibly going back to the first Lord or King of Winterfell.In Jon's recurring crypt dreams he feels a strong sense of rejection,"YOU ARE NO STARK!",but also extreme fear.

And the only dead Stark I can think of who might inspire such fear is the Night's King.In Old Nan's story as recalled by Bran at the Nightfort,he was brought down by the Stark in Winterfell (his brother) and the Wildling King,Joramun (he who blew the Horn of Winter and woke giants from the earth).

Given that the NK allegedly used dark sorceries and sacrificed to the Others,perhaps they deemed it necessary to inter him deep below Winterfell and ward his remains as strongly as possible.Which is maybe where and why the custom started.

And,yes,if his remains are down there,perhaps the Others are sensing a summons.

[Addam of Hull]

:bowdown: :bowdown: WOLFSWOOD: SUPER ANALYSIS! I JUST FOUND A QUOTE THAT MIGHT WORK WITH YOUR THEORY.

I am involved in a reread, so we have been looking closely at Martin's repetitive language patterns, and your theory about the "blue" eyes may be supported by this "important" quote in AGoT POV Eddard, Chapter 40: Eddard is in a dream like state recalling the TOJ:

"Eddard!" she [Lyanna] called. A storm of rose petals blew across a blood-streaked sky, AS BLUE AS THE EYES OF DEATH."

What do you suppose this means? [Does the blood-streaked sky suggest the "comet"? Was the comet associated with the Prince TWP?] STORM is an applicable word choice for it aligns with the weather motif, but the "blue" eyes remind me of the Others, yes? The Heretics may already know about this. iT'S probably old news, :crying: but not to me. I just found it!

I also had parsed those "Wall" descriptions from Jon and Bran's POV's - I will look them up because both Jon and Bran share similar perceptions of the Wall, Bran in his 3EC dream - which may augment the "ice eyes".

Another good quote is when Tyrion says to Mormont to break the ice from his eyes. I'll find that as well. You inspired me with your ideas, and I have not even finished the thread to read Alia's posts. I hope I am not repeating something.

Blood-streaked sky evokes two possibilities in my mind. The more mundane option is that it's a way of describing the time of day (twilight, which is when the sky goes red) while also acting as a way to bring stronger imagery to the moment. The Tower of Joy was a bloody affair, after all - nine people died, after all, and one of them was laying in "bed of blood" - so it's possible Martin is doing that instead. A comet is definitely the other possibility and it's no coincidence that Rhaegar himself believed that the bleeding star from prophecy was, in fact, a comet. Saying that the sky was blood-streaked invokes the image of a long, red gash on a blue sky which fits more with this particular interpretation. It could be taken as another hint toward Jon being Azor Ahai (though I'm not keen on the idea) and, let's face it, the bleeding star is actually the most difficult part of that prophecy to invoke. Everyone has smoke (from fires) and salt around them.

I have an idea about the White Walkers possibly being drawn to Winterfell and more specifically,the crypts.Just as we're looking at the words and mottoes and how ancient they might be,this tradition of using iron swords to ward in the spirits of deceased Starks seems to be lost in the mists of time too.Every statue we've seen in the books has or had it's sword.

But we've only seen one level,there are more levels below,unexplored in the books.Theon thinks they may be partially collapsed.So what's down there?Well more dead Starks,but older ones,possibly going back to the first Lord or King of Winterfell.In Jon's recurring crypt dreams he feels a strong sense of rejection,"YOU ARE NO STARK!",but also extreme fear.

And the only dead Stark I can think of who might inspire such fear is the Night's King.In Old Nan's story as recalled by Bran at the Nightfort,he was brought down by the Stark in Winterfell (his brother) and the Wildling King,Joramun (he who blew the Horn of Winter and woke giants from the earth).

Given that the NK allegedly used dark sorceries and sacrificed to the Others,perhaps they deemed it necessary to inter him deep below Winterfell and ward his remains as strongly as possible.Which is maybe where and why the custom started.

And,yes,if his remains are down there,perhaps the Others are sensing a summons.

A few (admittedly jumbled) thoughts about Winterfell and the Others. According to Old Nan:

“In that darkness, the Others came for the first time,” she said as her needles went click click click. “They were cold things, dead things, that hated iron and fire and the touch of the sun, and every creature with hot blood in its veins."

I think it's important that Winterfell itself is often subjected to personification and thought of as being a living, breathing entity. Of note in this quotation is the fact that the Others apparently hate iron and creatures with warm blood in their veins. This might be the wrong thought line, but Winterfell itself has hot water running through its walls via a system of pipes which keep it warm all the time. Isn't that striking similar to the thing the Others hate? And, more notably, if the Others really do hate iron... well, I don't think it's unreasonable to believe that the pipes in Winterfell could be made out of iron. If that's the case, then Winterfell itself is meant to be one giant anti-Other fortification. The iron in the walls might be meant to drive them away... while the iron swords keep their corporeal "white mist" forms away from their dead. Given that Winterfell was likely constructed sometime just after the Long Night, I don't think this is exactly unlikely.

[Beric Zoolander]

Not long ago, I posted a thread on Arya and the Water Motif in Braavos. We filled some 22+ pages of evidence from the novels that involve Arya and her association with water, not only in Braavos.

As we plodded along, I proposed that each Stark may be associated with an element, or an aspect of nature: Arya/water; Sansa/air; Bran/wood and roots and stone; Jon / ice and fire; Rickon / brute strength. Now I do not have all the particulars worked out, but we kicked about some neat stuff that seems possible. For instance, there seemed to be sufficient evidence that Arya, with her water association, may warg Casso King of Seals and then move onto bigger sea creatures, like even a kracken. All these elements are interdependent on one another. Water becomes Snow - out-of-control fire is quenched with water, and so on.

I guess we were even suggesting that the Starks might be a force like the Avengers who all must join together to balance the song of ice and fire.

This is an interesting idea and as I was reading this post I was able to jump to conclusions on who was involved with what element and it makes a ton of sense. Bran is more of rock and stone to me. Makes sense he;s on Skagos which In my mind at least is this rocky dangerous place filled with cannibals and unicorns. Don't all those ships always smash on the rocks near Skagos?

Anyways what this really reminded me of is that quote by Ned in AGOT:

“Let me tell you something about wolves, child. When the snows fall and the white winds blow, the lone wolf dies, but the pack survives. Summer is the time for squabbles. In winter, we must protect one another, keep each other warm, share our strengths. So if you must hate, Arya, hatethose who would truly do us harm.

Arya actually brings this back up again later on and refutes it and says its wrong that the lone wolf survives BUT she doesn't know her family is still alive AND its not winter. I think Arya is wrong in this, and Ned has the right of it.

[redriver]

Blood-streaked sky evokes two possibilities in my mind. The more mundane option is that it's a way of describing the time of day (twilight, which is when the sky goes red) while also acting as a way to bring stronger imagery to the moment. The Tower of Joy was a bloody affair, after all - nine people died, after all, and one of them was laying in "bed of blood" - so it's possible Martin is doing that instead. A comet is definitely the other possibility and it's no coincidence that Rhaegar himself believed that the bleeding star from prophecy was, in fact, a comet. Saying that the sky was blood-streaked invokes the image of a long, red gash on a blue sky which fits more with this particular interpretation. It could be taken as another hint toward Jon being Azor Ahai (though I'm not keen on the idea) and, let's face it, the bleeding star is actually the most difficult part of that prophecy to invoke. Everyone has smoke (from fires) and salt around them.

A few (admittedly jumbled) thoughts about Winterfell and the Others. According to Old Nan:

I think it's important that Winterfell itself is often subjected to personification and thought of as being a living, breathing entity. Of note in this quotation is the fact that the Others apparently hate iron and creatures with warm blood in their veins. This might be the wrong thought line, but Winterfell itself has hot water running through its walls via a system of pipes which keep it warm all the time. Isn't that striking similar to the thing the Others hate? And, more notably, if the Others really do hate iron... well, I don't think it's unreasonable to believe that the pipes in Winterfell could be made out of iron. If that's the case, then Winterfell itself is meant to be one giant anti-Other fortification. The iron in the walls might be meant to drive them away... while the iron swords keep their corporeal "white mist" forms away from their dead. Given that Winterfell was likely constructed sometime just after the Long Night, I don't think this is exactly unlikely.

I like the way you think!Attempting to link together the two quotes you are using,the first thing that strikes me is the comet.(Well not literally).The comet we see in the books seems to herald the renaissance of magic in the world,the birth of dragons.In debates I've had in Heresy on the subject,linking the return of the White Walkers to the comet gets rebutted by the fact that the WW appeared before the comet was seen.

But my response is maybe the WW sensed the comet in other ways long before it was seen by men,and perhaps that same comet helped fracture the ward that the NK is under,below Winterfell.

On Winterfell itself,I'm pretty sure there are no iron pipes.The hot water is piped through the stone of the walls,roman aqueduct style.WF was built long before iron,at least in the bronze age,and even more likely,in the obsidian age.

But in essence,I think you're right,WF is a natural deterrent to the Others,not because of iron but because of obsidian.It's found at Hardhome (volcanic),Dragonstone (volcanic) and,as Mel testifies,Valyria (volcanic).

That WF sits on hot water springs means it's probably a natural source of obsidian too,connecting the dots together.A very good reason to select it as the secondary,or maybe primary defense against the Others.

And a good reason to ward the NK there.

[evita mgfs]

This is an interesting idea and as I was reading this post I was able to jump to conclusions on who was involved with what element and it makes a ton of sense. Bran is more of rock and stone to me. Makes sense he;s on Skagos which In my mind at least is this rocky dangerous place filled with cannibals and unicorns. Don't all those ships always smash on the rocks near Skagos?

Anyways what this really reminded me of is that quote by Ned in AGOT:

Arya actually brings this back up again later on and refutes it and says its wrong that the lone wolf survives BUT she doesn't know her family is still alive AND its not winter. I think Arya is wrong in this, and Ned has the right of it.

:bowdown: :bowdown: BERIC ZOOLANDER: GREAT TIE-IN WITH THE QUOTE:

“Let me tell you something about wolves, child. When the snows fall and the white winds blow, the lone wolf dies, but the pack survives. Summer is the time for squabbles. In winter, we must protect one another, keep each other warm, share our strengths. So if you must hate, Arya, hate those who would truly do us harm."

This quote also corresponds to the "winter fell" theory and the "elements" theory - and you did not edit the quote as many posters do when using this evidence: everyone thinks the important part is the "lone wolf" dying and the pack surviving when the context of Ned's entire passage to Arya is just as relevant and significant. "We must protect one another" - I love it! "In Winter". Then the "share our strengths" - maybe there is hope that the Starks will unite again in Winterfell - and all the "lone" wolves will return to the "pack" to survive as they did in the early POV's in AGoT as a family. I personally think Martin "sets up" symbols, motifs, language patterns, foreshadowing, and much more in AGoT. It is like a little blue print of what may come, and I am sure after reading WoW, we will still be able to reread AGoT and see how Martin masterminds his plot development and characterizations that extend through WoW. [i hope that makes sense!]

Also, the word "strength" is a favorite of Martin's when he describes his characters maturing - or healing - as with Bran who grows stronger - or his heart beats stronger - when he hears Summer and the direwolves singing through his window in his sick room. Then Bran feels stronger when he is out riding Dancer with the snow fall that grows "stronger" as the suspense mounts, culminating in Robb "protecting" Bran from the wildlings and deserters in the wolfswoods. The Stark direwolves are also part of the "strengthening" of Bran and Jon definitely, and I do think Martin insinuates Robb's growing physical strength and mental maturity in other POV's that observe Robb and Grey Wind together. Martin even intimates that Rickon is connecting with Shaggy, and I love the quote that begins one of Bran's POV's that says "Rickon ran with the wolves!". Now I speculate that these words may contain a little gem of providence: maybe Rickon will be the leader of his own pack with Shaggy, running with the wolves. Arya's Nymeria is gathering a formidable pack in the Riverlands.

My mind is going in several directions because I am thinking of the "snow", and I wonder about the stone direwolves and their obvious past importance to the Starks and winter. Has anyone ever suggested that the direwolves may have combined their strengths in packs that might have been used for travel during heavy snow falls? You know, maybe pulling a sled? After all, isn't that an important transport in Alaska even today? [i know we have nifty vehicles that move over snow, but not in Martin's world].

Look at how Stannis is snowed in, and those horses having to wear special footgear so that they do not sink. Horses are a rough go in snow - they also can slip easily and go lame. Wolves/dogs would have been more reliable and sensible in times of impassable snow for the Starks.

Oh well, I am just rambling now. I need to sit and organize my ideas better and hunt for some more evidences. With everyone forgetting what they once knew, it might be using wolves and dogs to pulls sleds in snow is part of the knowledge the First Men knew now forgotten in Winterfell? :dunno:

[Longspear Ryk]

Interesting that Brandon Stark (I believe he was also Brandon the Builder) was referred to as Ice Eyes - (wondering why anyone??)

For some reason I was unable to include the quote you found which mentioned the "Ice Eyes".

i thought he was called Ice Eyes because he was part Bolton... Or was it a bolton in the skin of a stark?

[LordStoneheart]

Great thread! I was just thinking how lots of the other houses words seem to refer directly to something they DO or ARE (Hear me roar, Ours is the Fury, we do not sow and even fire and blood could just be short for we are/bring fire and blood), while "Winter is coming" doesn't. Or does it? As in "We are the Starks and we can bring the winter"?

So in conclusion: "There must always be a Stark in Winterfell" - or else "Winter is coming" = bc the Starks "control" the winter.

The show, I thought, did an awesome version of this when Robb tells a lion supporter to tell Joffrey "Winter is coming for him."

[Alia of the knife]

I have also speculated on the possibility that there could be a fourth dragon, a dragon unique to Jon, an Ice Dragon.

However, my Husband suggested that just as it took the fires of Drogos funeral pyre to hatch Danys Valaryan Dragons, that in the case of this particular dragon, it may need to be cold. REALLY cold, as in Winter is Coming/The Long Night cold.

Martin has not used this dragon in his Ice and Fire/Dunk & Egg series, but wrote a seperate childrens book, (bittersweet of course), about dragons in a Northern realm, (very much like Winterfell and the rest of the North), a young girl who sounds very much like an Other who bonded with this dragon. This dragon was unlike it's Southern, or Valaryan counterpart and deadly.

I feel that if Martin thought it out in another work, it's not outside the realm of possibility that this unique creature might put in an appearance later on.

( I won't spoil the rest if anyone wants to read it. It's a very short read, but as I said, bittersweet).

[greensleeves]

On the topic of connecting Winterfell to the weather:

In her last chapter from AFFC, Sansa thinks that the wind "sounds like a wolf... A ghost wolf, big as mountains."

One obvious 'ghost wolf' is Jon's wolf Ghost, but another interpretation is that 'ghost wolf' is a reference to Lady. After all, Starks of old had their wolves buried alongside them. We talk a lot about the ghosts of those Starks, but maybe the ghosts of the wolves are something to be concerned about as well. Lady is buried at Winterfell... the only one of the current wolves who is at the castle at all. Considering the bonds between the Starks and their wolves, maybe part of Sansa *is* at Winterfell. This connection would also help further explain the snow Winterfell scene.

If we interpret it this way, then the fact that Sansa hears Lady on the wind means that the wind might have originated at Winterfell.

[Alia of the knife]

True enough. The supernatural connection does run stronger in some than others. Jon and Bran, most of all, but Arya as well, I think.

:agree:

[Addam of Hull]

I like the way you think!Attempting to link together the two quotes you are using,the first thing that strikes me is the comet.(Well not literally).The comet we see in the books seems to herald the renaissance of magic in the world,the birth of dragons.In debates I've had in Heresy on the subject,linking the return of the White Walkers to the comet gets rebutted by the fact that the WW appeared before the comet was seen.

But my response is maybe the WW sensed the comet in other ways long before it was seen by men,and perhaps that same comet helped fracture the ward that the NK is under,below Winterfell.

On Winterfell itself,I'm pretty sure there are no iron pipes.The hot water is piped through the stone of the walls,roman aqueduct style.WF was built long before iron,at least in the bronze age,and even more likely,in the obsidian age.

But in essence,I think you're right,WF is a natural deterrent to the Others,not because of iron but because of obsidian.It's found at Hardhome (volcanic),Dragonstone (volcanic) and,as Mel testifies,Valyria (volcanic).

That WF sits on hot water springs means it's probably a natural source of obsidian too,connecting the dots together.A very good reason to select it as the secondary,or maybe primary defense against the Others.

And a good reason to ward the NK there.

I think my ultimate caveat with regards to the White Walkers and the comet is that Bloodraven has been subterranean now for decades and decades, using the so-called power of the old gods and the weirwood network to watch over the events of the North. Simply put, magic has been alive and well for nearly a hundred years now... but only the magic that's associated with the old gods. I suspect that the lack of abilities of the Essos-based magics (the sorcerers of Qarth, the red priests, and others) has much more to do with the Doom of Valyria than anything else. We have a sort of "chicken and the egg" moment with the Dragons - are they the source of the returned magics or are they simply the indicator?

I suspect that the very nature of the Dragons really is magical in a way that has a lasting effect on other beings that use magic. My ultimate belief is that Valyria itself was one of the "hinges" of the World, similar to the Wall, and its destruction was very similar to a volcanic eruption - the result devastated the "magical" ecosystem - enough so that even the Dragons died out, who were inherently linked to that location - but that with the passing of time, things have begun to settle down and magic is capable again in that portion of the world. As an aside, there's nothing to indicate that the CotF or the Giants were endangered by this event. As for the White Walkers themselves, I tend to believe that they're finally rising again because of how weak the Night's Watch has gotten. It's implied that the strength of the Watch influences the strength of the Wall, after all.

With regards to Winterfell, I think you're probably right about the aquaducts - that would make sense. Even without iron, I think that there's definitely reasons to believe that Winterfell is constructed as an anti-Other castle. I'm not sure that it actually has much to do with obsidian, either. We know from the legends that Winterfell was supposedly constructed by Bran the Builder after the long night - although whether Bran actually existed is questionable - so it was likely constructed with that in mind.

I definitely think that the iron swords are meant to prevent the Others from defiling Stark dead and raising them as Wights. If the Night's King was a Stark - which seems likely - he probably is buried down there.