Winter Fell?

[redriver]

I suspect there is something the Others want in the Crypts-the Nights King.Strictly speaking he shouldn't be there,he wasn't King in the North or Lord of Winterfell.But I think it would be seen as a Stark responsibility to inter and ward his remains for all time.

There are underground passages under the Wall but I'm not sure they extend to Winterfell.Besides there would have been no need for a Wall if the Others could use this way.

[alienarea]

I suspect there is something the Others want in the Crypts-the Nights King.Strictly speaking he shouldn't be there,he wasn't King in the North or Lord of Winterfell.But I think it would be seen as a Stark responsibility to inter and ward his remains for all time.

There are underground passages under the Wall but I'm not sure they extend to Winterfell.Besides there would have been no need for a Wall if the Others could use this way.

And maybe this is why Jon is afraid of the crypts? He'll become Nights King 2.0 and will be warded there as well?

[The Mother of The Others]

Roose's haphazard hold on the North would suddenly not look so poorly orchestrated if Roose knows he doesn't have to hold Winterfell forever, but just long enough for the Dark Stark to rise within the crypts and awaken all the other Stark kings as his corpse army. Then, when they bust out into the feeble daylight, that's when Roose's desperate play will be made to switch sides and join the winning team, the non-humans. That'd be why he's done all he's done leading up to now, so he could strip Winterfell of its defenders and be there to take advantage at the moment that matters--the beginning of the undead avalanche. He'd hope to join their party as a better-than-wight Lich Lord? And then Ramsay can go screw himself or his pets. But Rams may have something to say about that. (Or nothing magical happens at the end and everyone swordfights it out like on Black Sails.)

[Khal Shaggydog]

"...adn the wind came howling from the North..." That is going to be one of my new favorite lines, along with the North Remembers and Winter is Coming (as we're getting another couple winter storms this very week).

Interesting thoughts on the potential secrets in the Winterfell crypts, and the way larger game that Roose might be playing. That rings pretty true, because Roose seems to be a little too smart to have such a crappy plan that is already falling apart before the storm hits and they fight Stannis. Its an open secret the Manderlys are hostile to the Bolton/Frey alliance, and Roose has to know the Umbers will take revenge as soon as they can, and no one, especially Roose, is going to rely on the Freys for much at all. I think its a pretty wild play to be relying on a "Dark Stark" to rise from the crypts, but we dont know what Roose knows, and just like Tywin, there is usually at least one more layer to the plan than we can initially see.

I also think there might be something to the connection between Brandon Ice Eyes and Roose. Those eyes are significant, they indicate something larger and something darker. It is the reason why Roose ultimately acknowledges Ramsay. They are acutely described by almost every POV that comes in contact with Roose.

I also think there is something larger going on with Roose's plan based on the fact that he doesnt care about leaving behind any heirs, he is alright with the fact that Ramsay would eventually kill any male sons of his, and he also seems to be pretty OK with the thought of Ramsay dying as well. If that is the case, then why bother with this huge plan of betraying the Starks and grabbing control of Winterfell? Unless there was some larger, darker purpose. It just reminds me somewhat of Craster and his reliance on an alliance with the WW.

[Dagda]

"...adn the wind came howling from the North..." That is going to be one of my new favorite lines, along with the North Remembers and Winter is Coming (as we're getting another couple winter storms this very week).

Interesting thoughts on the potential secrets in the Winterfell crypts, and the way larger game that Roose might be playing. That rings pretty true, because Roose seems to be a little too smart to have such a crappy plan that is already falling apart before the storm hits and they fight Stannis. Its an open secret the Manderlys are hostile to the Bolton/Frey alliance, and Roose has to know the Umbers will take revenge as soon as they can, and no one, especially Roose, is going to rely on the Freys for much at all. I think its a pretty wild play to be relying on a "Dark Stark" to rise from the crypts, but we dont know what Roose knows, and just like Tywin, there is usually at least one more layer to the plan than we can initially see.

I also think there might be something to the connection between Brandon Ice Eyes and Roose. Those eyes are significant, they indicate something larger and something darker. It is the reason why Roose ultimately acknowledges Ramsay. They are acutely described by almost every POV that comes in contact with Roose.

I also think there is something larger going on with Roose's plan based on the fact that he doesnt care about leaving behind any heirs, he is alright with the fact that Ramsay would eventually kill any male sons of his, and he also seems to be pretty OK with the thought of Ramsay dying as well. If that is the case, then why bother with this huge plan of betraying the Starks and grabbing control of Winterfell? Unless there was some larger, darker purpose. It just reminds me somewhat of Craster and his reliance on an alliance with the WW.

Remember the book Roose's burned at Herrenhal . He knows something that has to do either with the Starks or Winterfell.

[GrumpkinsAndStarks]

Yes,it certainly started there but I suggest the marriage of Ramsay and "Arya" made it legal and binding in the sight of the old gods.From this moment on Ramsay can call himself the Lord of Winterfell.Until then the Starks were nominally and legally in charge of it.

Theon styled himself Prince of Winterfell but I don't think anyone recognized this,including his own family.Besides throughout his reign,the Stark boys were there.When Ramsay sacked the castle,bringing Theon with him,he left it unclaimed,leaving squatters to move in.

Absolutely. The Bastard of Bolton's marriage to Jeyne Poole marked the end of Stark rule in Winterfell. It would seem there is significance in ceremony throughout the series. Perhaps, especially those performed before a Heart Tree. The question is, why must there be a Stark in WF? Are the Starks bestowed with some ancient power to gaurd against WWs or the full force of winter itself? Or maybe a pact was set with the CotF after the Long Night has them as gaurdians of some tool/weapon? A second Black Gate? Or maybe, more ominously, the Horn of Joramun which has also been called the Horn of Winter?

In any case, great post! I love these threads!

[The Great Cornholio!]

Remember the book Roose's burned at Herrenhal . He knows something that has to do either with the Starks or Winterfell.

Where did you find that in the books? If its true, it could be significantly impacting his actions.

[GrumpkinsAndStarks]

I only vaguely remember Roose's time at Harrenhal, After finishing ADwD I re-read AFfC and then ADwD again, Just started a re-read of the series so books 2 and 3 are foggy. Were the books Roose was burning named in the text?

BTW, I don't doubt that Roose has something up his sleeve. And by "his" I mean "it's". And by sleeve I mean some poor schlep's arm skin he's got draped over it's skeletal appendage. And by appendage I me . . . Ah enough!

[Dagda]

Where did you find that in the books? If its true, it could be significantly impacting his actions.

Sorry I'm slow. It's in the Arya POV when she is his cup bearer. On the iPad so can't quote.

[GrumpkinsAndStarks]

Arya POV ACoK

"Roose Bolton was seated by the hearth reading from a thick leatherbound book when she entered. [...] Bolton turned a few more pages with his finger, then closed the book and placed it carefully in the fire. He watched the flames consume it, pale eyes shining with reflected light. The old dry leather went up with a whoosh, and the yellow pages stirred as they burned, as if some ghost were reading them."

No mention of a title or an association with Starks or WF but the info within must have been important enough to destroy in order to prevent it getting out, Not long after this he sets in motion a series of events that would have him, in all but title, Lord of Winterfell.

[Dagda]

Arya POV ACoK

"Roose Bolton was seated by the hearth reading from a thick leatherbound book when she entered. [...] Bolton turned a few more pages with his finger, then closed the book and placed it carefully in the fire. He watched the flames consume it, pale eyes shining with reflected light. The old dry leather went up with a whoosh, and the yellow pages stirred as they burned, as if some ghost were reading them."

No mention of a title or an association with Starks or WF but the info within must have been important enough to destroy in order to prevent it getting out, Not long after this he sets in motion a series of events that would have him, in all but title, Lord of Winterfell.

Thank you.

[A Bastard Snow]

BranFell

[Oren]

I think you guys are reading too much into this. There always got to be a stark in winterfell, because the starks have the blood of the greenseers (which is why they can wear the skins of animals/humans). The motto is winter is coming, because it's the duty of the greenseers to defend the north from the white walkers.

[TheSamsa]

I think you guys are reading too much into this. There always got to be a stark in winterfell, because the starks have the blood of the greenseers (which is why they can wear the skins of animals/humans). The motto is winter is coming, because it's the duty of the greenseers to defend the north from the white walkers.

I don't think so. GRRM once used in a SSM the reason that Benjen stayed in WF during Roberts Rebellion was "There must always be a Stark in Winterfell" wich I find quite interessting that he said that! :)

[Dagda]

I think you guys are reading too much into this. There always got to be a stark in winterfell, because the starks have the blood of the greenseers (which is why they can wear the skins of animals/humans). The motto is winter is coming, because it's the duty of the greenseers to defend the north from the white walkers.

There isn't exactly allot of information that the Starks are all wargs. It may be that a Stark on location may keep whatever is bottled up at Winterfell under control.

[Oren]

There isn't exactly allot of information that the Starks are all wargs. It may be that a Stark on location may keep whatever is bottled up at Winterfell under control.

Well of course not. That's what the story is about. Ned died before he passed the knowledge to the next generation (or maybe the knowledge died decades ago), and its up for the stark orphans to rediscover their role.

Evidence that the starks are wargs is that both Bran and Arya (father Ned) and Jon (Mother Lyanna) have warging capacities. Bran the builder built the wall by commanding giants. He could have done this by warging the giants. He built the wall and winterfell and established the stark lineage, as well as the night watch, to protect the realm of men from the white walkers. The stark line is probably diluted at present day of the story, so the warging powers are weak (with the exception of Bran), but the motto of the family remained. The starks need to stay in winterfell because they have to guarantee the survival of the greenseer lineage. It is also likely, that like the wall, winterfell was built with magic, and therefore staying in winterfell enhances their warging capacities. They are the only ones who can defeat the white walkers (as Bran the builder did the first time and Bran the cripple is about to do soon). IMO this will be discovered in the coming books as Bran uses the memory of the trees to rediscover the secret of his ancestors.

[bobbybuilderton]

I think you guys are reading too much into this. There always got to be a stark in winterfell, because the starks have the blood of the greenseers (which is why they can wear the skins of animals/humans). The motto is winter is coming, because it's the duty of the greenseers to defend the north from the white walkers.

Then why must there always be a Stark in Winterfell? If it's just about having the blood of greenseers, why can't there be a Karstark in Winterfell? Or some other family that's related to them? Those specific children are not "evidence" that Starks are wargs. Why would whatever activated those abilities in them not have activated anyone elses who is related to them by blood? And Bran the builder using giants to build Winterfell could easily just be some smallfolk seeing the place and saying "well he must have used giants, how else could someone build so high?!"

No one can even say for certain if Brandon the Builder ever lived. He is as remote from the time of the novels as Noah and Gilgamesh are from our own time.

source: http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/The_Wall

MEANING a lot of myth has probably crept in and the grandeur of their deeds likely exaggerated. Also probably didn't build the wall, as in the same SSM, he says it took hundreds of years to complete, thousands to reach present height. So unless Brandon lived for hundreds of years, he didn't build the wall. He helped, maybe. started the project, perhaps. Assuming he actually existed, of course. There's also the fact that if a female Stark married off into another family, their descendants at this point would have blood that is no more "diluted" than a male's descendants. The differences would be in their name only. Leading back to the question of why does it have to be a Stark, if it's just about blood? Plenty of other northerners, and possibly some southerners too, have greenseer blood that would be marginally more diluted after thousands of years.

You think we're over thinking. I think you are oversimplifying and using shaky evidence. At the very least, this is more than just "The Starks have greenseer blood and greenseers have to defend against the others."

[Oren]

Then why must there always be a Stark in Winterfell? If it's just about having the blood of greenseers, why can't there be a Karstark in Winterfell? Or some other family that's related to them? Those specific children are not "evidence" that Starks are wargs. Why would whatever activated those abilities in them not have activated anyone elses who is related to them by blood? And Bran the builder using giants to build Winterfell could easily just be some smallfolk seeing the place and saying "well he must have used giants, how else could someone build so high?!"

MEANING a lot of myth has probably crept in and the grandeur of their deeds likely exaggerated. Also probably didn't build the wall, as in the same SSM, he says it took hundreds of years to complete, thousands to reach present height. So unless Brandon lived for hundreds of years, he didn't build the wall. He helped, maybe. started the project, perhaps. Assuming he actually existed, of course. There's also the fact that if a female Stark married off into another family, their descendants at this point would have blood that is no more "diluted" than a male's descendants. The differences would be in their name only. Leading back to the question of why does it have to be a Stark, if it's just about blood? Plenty of other northerners, and possibly some southerners too, have greenseer blood that would be marginally more diluted after thousands of years.

You think we're over thinking. I think you are oversimplifying and using shaky evidence. At the very least, this is more than just "The Starks have greenseer blood and greenseers have to defend against the others."

Fair enough. However, this is still my hunch. If I remember correctly from the first book, Sansa looks like her mother while Jon and Arya look exactly like Ned. This would imply that the stark genes are more dominant in their cases. Why there should be a stark in Winterfell. I still think its related to maintaing the blood. Yes, the female line could have greenseer in them, and some of this blood has been passed around over the generations on both sides of the wall (e.g., Varamyr, Jojen Reed). They kept a stark in Winterfell from the same reason that the rest of the kingdom prefers boys to girls in inheritance matters. Its an arbitrary way of knowing of at least one line that have the greenseer blood. IF this is actually the case, we should see when the next book comes out.

[The Great Cornholio!]

Then why must there always be a Stark in Winterfell? If it's just about having the blood of greenseers, why can't there be a Karstark in Winterfell? Or some other family that's related to them? Those specific children are not "evidence" that Starks are wargs. Why would whatever activated those abilities in them not have activated anyone elses who is related to them by blood? And Bran the builder using giants to build Winterfell could easily just be some smallfolk seeing the place and saying "well he must have used giants, how else could someone build so high?!"

MEANING a lot of myth has probably crept in and the grandeur of their deeds likely exaggerated. Also probably didn't build the wall, as in the same SSM, he says it took hundreds of years to complete, thousands to reach present height. So unless Brandon lived for hundreds of years, he didn't build the wall. He helped, maybe. started the project, perhaps. Assuming he actually existed, of course. There's also the fact that if a female Stark married off into another family, their descendants at this point would have blood that is no more "diluted" than a male's descendants. The differences would be in their name only. Leading back to the question of why does it have to be a Stark, if it's just about blood? Plenty of other northerners, and possibly some southerners too, have greenseer blood that would be marginally more diluted after thousands of years.

You think we're over thinking. I think you are oversimplifying and using shaky evidence. At the very least, this is more than just "The Starks have greenseer blood and greenseers have to defend against the others."

All interesting. I wonder if that was a book of Stark lineages.

[Dagda]

Fair enough. However, this is still my hunch. If I remember correctly from the first book, Sansa looks like her mother while Jon and Arya look exactly like Ned. This would imply that the stark genes are more dominant in their cases. Why there should be a stark in Winterfell. I still think its related to maintaing the blood. Yes, the female line could have greenseer in them, and some of this blood has been passed around over the generations on both sides of the wall (e.g., Varamyr, Jojen Reed). They kept a stark in Winterfell from the same reason that the rest of the kingdom prefers boys to girls in inheritance matters. Its an arbitrary way of knowing of at least one line that have the greenseer blood. IF this is actually the case, we should see when the next book comes out.

Cat's grandmother is a Whent, so she also has FM blood running strong in her, which could produce wargs or green seers, and would be concurrent with the theory that it is the matrilineal lines in the North that is the key. See the Bael the Bard tale.