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redriver

Winter Fell?

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Hmm,it's difficult.I think Jon quotes Ned as saying that "you cannot tell a lie in front of a heart tree."But obviously you can.

Jeyne Poole told everyone she was Arya Stark at the false wedding.Under severe duress,admittedly.

But a lie nonetheless,the point being that you can utter words that are lies,but the old gods will know it's a lie.

If Theon confesses the truth,it won't necessarily be believed unless certain other people in the know step forward to confirm it.

That aside,I'm really buzzing to find out what happens on that damned island.

Who else knows the truth? I think everyone is dead or gone.

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This thread is a real eye opener for me. It seems this entire series is a compilation of mystery on top of mystery. I am personally grateful that I found this sight. This whole topic of Winter's Fall and what power the Starks have in the control of it is fascinating to me. I feel really stupid right now not catching any of this. I knew there was more to it than Jon's secret but I am now realizing that the North's secret is as amazing. It there a Citadel secret? How many layers are there to this story? Thank you Red River for opening my eyes to the possibilities. I feel for the people that only watch the sereis.

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I think the "there must always be a stark in winterfell" is overrated. What is there in the books to suggest its more than simply a good policy for running your land?

Good question.No one aside from the Starks mention it explicitly in the novels but the reaction of certain northerners,especially the mountain clans suggest they believe it to be true.

Take the Liddle who meets Bran and the Reeds in ASOS.

"When there was a Stark in Winterfell,a maiden girl could walk the kingsroad in her name-day gown and still go unmolested,and travelers could find fire,bread and salt at many an inn and holdfast.But the nights are colder now,and doors are closed...

It was different when there was a Stark in Winterfell.But the old wolf's dead and young one's gone south to play the game of thrones."

The bolded part may be foreshadowing what's to come when the Boltons officially take over but the overall sentiment is obvious.

When Stannis takes Deepwood Motte it's the mountain clansmen who insist on marching on Winterfell.

Ser Justin had opposed it from the start,along with many of the knights and lords who had come with Stannis from the south.But the wolves insisted;Roose Bolton could not be suffered to hold Winterfell,and the Ned's girl must be rescued from the clutches of his bastard.So said Morgan Liddle,Brandon Norrey,Big Bucket Wull,the Flints,even the She-Bear.

At this stage,if you're opposed to the overall theory,you could say the clansmen want a Stark in Winterfell for pragmatic reasons,though this sort of passion argues that it's more entrenched than that,-

Lord Peasebury turned against the northmen."This march was madness.More dying every day,and for what?Some girl?

"Ned's girl," said Morgan Liddle.....

"Ned's girl," echoed Big Bucket Wull."And we should have had her and the castle both if you prancing southron jackanapes didn't piss your satin breeches at a little snow."

I love that quote,and this one from the Bucket,-

Winter is almost upon us,boy.And winter is death.I would sooner my men die fighting for the Ned's little girl than alone and hungry in the snow,weeping tears that freeze upon their cheeks......

...As for me,I am old.This will be my last winter.Let me bathe in Bolton blood before I die.I want to feel it spatter across my face when my axe bites deep into a Bolton skull.I want to lick it off my lips and die with the taste of it on my tongue.

Stirring stuff.Someone who's prepared to die for the cause.There is certainly Bolton hatred here,which I think goes beyond the Red Wedding.They will not suffer the Boltons to hold Winterfell because there must be a Stark there.And there are reasons to infer that the old gods feel the same way.

Let's take quotes from northmen,one in the Stannis camp,one in Winterfell itself.From The Sacrifice,ADWD,-

"What has your southron god to do with snow?" Demanded Artos Flint.His black beard was crusted with ice."This is the wroth of the old gods come upon us.It is them we should appease."

"Aye," said Big Bucket Wull."Red Rahloo means nothing here.You will only make the old gods angry.They are watching from their island.

So,what have the old gods got to be angry about?Old Lord Locke is in Winterfell to witness the sham marriage that legitimizes Ramsay Bolton as Lord of Winterfell and he feels the old gods aren't happy too.From A Ghost in Winterfell,ADWD,-

"The gods have turned against us.This is their wroth.A wind as cold as hell itself and snows that never end.We are cursed."
.

So,once again,why are the old gods angry?I submit that they don't think "There must always be a Stark in Winterfell" is over rated.

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This thread is a real eye opener for me. It seems this entire series is a compilation of mystery on top of mystery. I am personally grateful that I found this sight. This whole topic of Winter's Fall and what power the Starks have in the control of it is fascinating to me. I feel really stupid right now not catching any of this. I knew there was more to it than Jon's secret but I am now realizing that the North's secret is as amazing. It there a Citadel secret? How many layers are there to this story? Thank you Red River for opening my eyes to the possibilities. I feel for the people that only watch the sereis.

And thank you very much for your comments,they are very much appreciated.At the end of the day,it's a theory which is either right or wrong.But I think there are enough pointers in the text to support it.

And yes,I'm sure the Citadel has it's secrets but that's another story....!

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:bowdown: :bowdown: GREAT JOB, REDRIVER!

I love this and where you are going. May I share a few of my observations? I really am inspired by your thoughts here, so I am going to offer up some of my connections through the novels.

The Wiki of Ice and Fire defines GUEST RIGHT:

“The guest right is a ancient and sacred tradition, that goes back thousands of years in Westeros to the First Men.[1]

The guest right is a sacred law of hospitality. When a guest, be he common born or noble, eats the food and drinks the drink off a host's table beneath the host's roof, the guest right is invoked. When invoked, neither the guest can harm his host nor the host harm his guest for the length of the guest's stay.[1] For either to do so would be to break a sacred covenant that is believed to invoke the wrath of the Gods both old and new. Both the teachings of the Old Gods and the Faith of the Seven hold to this.. .

A lord with a bared sword across his knees is making a traditional sign that he is denying guest right.

It is sometimes customary for a host to give "guest gifts" to the departing guests when they leave the host's dwellings; this usually represents the end of the sacred guest right. In addition, visiting guests will sometimes offer their host "guest gifts" as gratitude for giving them food and shelter.[2]

First, remember this following theory as you read my evidence and commentary: According to the Wiki of Ice and Fire, a “stance” assumed by a lord withholding his hospitality to a visitor is removing his sword from its sheath and laying it across his lap, very much like the posture assumed by the dead Starks and Kings of Winter in the crypts of Winterfell. Does this mean that the depiction of the stone Starks send the message: you are not welcome? [Only Starks belong in Winterfell or [crypts]?

I have long been following the “laws of hospitality” motif in Martin’s series, which also is an important thematic device in Homeric myth and epics. For example, the cause of the Trojan War is sometimes wrongly placed on Helen’s shoulders; although Helen is besieged with guilt for her part in causing the war, the Atrides Agamemnon and Menelaus blame the Trojan Prince Paris who “violated” the sacred laws of hospitality when he abducted Helen of Sparta, taking her to Troy. It is not good form to “seduce” the wife of a host and then “kidnap” her, stealing her away to have for your own.

The Trojan War onset is similar to what we know of Rhaegar abducting Lyanna and raping her, according to Robert; this incident incites Robert’s Rebellion. I wonder then under what circumstances did Rhaegar “steal” Lyanna? Did Rhaegar violate the laws of hospitality in any way?

I always found it ironic that Jaime Lannister first “saves” Bran, even directing him to “TAKE MY HAND!” Martin’s word choice is appropriate – the forces that are the old gods may deliver an apt, karmic-like punishment to Jaime, one in which they do as Jaime directs: they take his HAND. The same hand that pushes Bran, and the same hand that killed Aerys.

Jaime, along with his sister Cersei, violate the laws of hospitality by committing adultery and fornicating in the broken tower located on the property of their HOST Lord Eddard Stark of Winterfell.

It is ironic that Cersei, the proud lioness of Lannister, has her gorgeous mane shorn, and she must parade naked through King’s Landing for a public condemnation. Moreover, Cersei’s name appears on Arya’s “hit list”, or her daily “prayer”, and Arya’s list is shortening, even without Arya’s direct involvement. Maybe the forces that are the old gods are far reaching, even “related” to the godheads of other religions. Him-of-Many-Faces has some likenesses to aspects of the old gods, especially the faces on the weirwood trees. Similarly, the thousand hoods in the vaults below the HoB&W link to Bloodraven telling Bran he will have 1000 eyes, a 100 skins, and knowledge deep as the roots of trees, or pretty close to that.

I also have an idea that usually gets shot down, but I persist: I think that two locations will be the sight of the forces of the old gods seeking justice for the violations of the laws of hospitality: Winterfell and the Wall. The Boltons and company have taken Winterfell under false pretenses, and Bolton’s men take the castle regardless of the fact that there is a Stark in Winterfell: the little lordling in the weirwood watching, taking in the entire show, which includes a mummer’s farce of a wedding. Theon “pretends” to stand-in for a Stark lord, playing the role of Lord Ned Stark’s foster son. The Turncloak is “giving away” Jeyne Poole, who is pretending to be Arya Stark. This “violation” is taking place in the godswood, beneath the heart tree where Ned sat to clean Ice, a sacred place to the Starks.

Lady Dustin suspiciously opens the crypts of Winterfell, and she goes to a great deal of trouble to do so. Maybe by opening the entrance to the crypts, Lady Dustin has allowed an avenue of escape, either for the spirits of the dead Starks, or other?

At the Wall, the men of the Night’s Watch may have to pay for their violations of the laws of hospitality: they killed their host Craster, they raped his wives and daughters, and they killed their own Lord Commander Mormont. More recently, a faction of black brothers assassinated or “attempted to” assassinate Lord Commander Jon Snow. Worthy of note is that Jon Snow NEVER ate from Craster’s board. Martin made a point of mentioning this, demonstrating Jon’s stubbornness. However, I have speculated that Jon will be protected from punishment because he never took Craster’s hospitality.

But back to Winterfell and why there must always be a Stark present: The Stark presence indicates “inhospitality” – no “visitors” are welcome without permission of the host, or ‘the Stark in Winterfell.’ If you take up residence without a Stark host, be forewarned. If there is a breach of hospitality, the Starks, alive, dead, and in-between, unleash a force augmented or inspired by the forces that are the old gods.

The Boltons have not been invited guests to Winterfell: they steal her under falsely, and worse yet, they do so “in the presence” of a Stark in Winterfell: the little lordling in the heart tree who witnesses ALL THE SHINANIGANS!

The murder of ravens is also going to play into what comes down at Winterfell, I think.

Sadly, we learn that Bran knows what is going on in the bedroom with Ramsay, Theon, Jeyne, and a dog, for a raven quorks in the godswood.

Originally I was going to post the movement of the snow in an early Bran point of view, but reading on into the thread, I thought I’d share my thoughts about the crypts and the heart tree – Maester Luwin even says Winterfell is like a tree.

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This is a really interesting topic, and I definitely want to get into this more. I've read most of it, but got excited to post, so I'm not sure if this has been touched upon at all yet but its interesting that most if not all the major characters have dealt with serious weather at one time or another.

Theon and Stannis and Asha with the snow storm in the north, that seems never ending

Tyrion and Victarion deal with that huge storm at sea.

Robb and Catelyn along with many others deal with that huge rain storm that swept down into the Riverlands and onward. Delays them on their way to the Red Wedding.

Arya and Sandor also dealt with that rain storm.

Dany in the dessert dealt with the lack of rain for her entire trip across the Red Waste.

Sam dealt with a huge storm at sea on his way to Braavos.

Some of these may be stretches but others aren't and it's interesting to see how these storms effect everyone, and to think about where they come from...messages from old gods or the new?

They do mention that fall tends to be a stormy season...but I doubt its all a coincidence.

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As I said, I am getting very inspired by this thread. GREAT POINTS, BERIC ZOOLANDER.

I am adding my next post for fun, THEN I'll get my snow post up. But Zoolander brings up the rain, and we have been following the "rain" in our AGoT reread: if characters are not rained upon, they are snowed upon. Khaleesi takes baths of hot, steaming water. Robb and Bran have snow fall on their faces when they ride out into the wolfwood. Arya enters the dragon's mouth and comes out in a sewer. Viserys has a bath of gold - I am sure there are more.

If there are indeed “old gods”, they have a great deal to be angry about, especially now with a Stark lordling as part of their godhead.

I did some looking up of the etymology of the word “fell” and how its meaning changes depending on what part of speech it takes when used in a sentence. As a transitive verb, “fell” means to “strike, cut, knock down, or kill”. So does Winter “fell” mean that “Winter will strike, cut, knockdown, and/or kill __________[fill in the blank]????”

But some of the other definitions for “fell” as a noun and adjective are interesting:

The term “fell” is also associated with trees and timber counts, which is interesting. Then as an adjective, “inhumanely cruel nature; fierce; capable of destroying; lethal; dire; sinister.”

This “fell” could take on several different meanings, and for some reason I associate the Starks with Winter on a higher level than mere location. If a Stark is not “officially” in Winterfell, what does this mean for restoring balance to the world of ice and fire? [i personally think “Bran in the heart tree” suffices for a Stark presence in Winterfell, and maybe it will be Bran who will use those forces available to him to cause Winter “to” fell the enemies and administer justice.

However, a “fake” Stark in Winterfell might really, really be a bad thing!

Below, for fun, are the definitions from http://www.thefreedictionary.com/fell

fell

tr.v. felled, fell·ing, fells

1.

a. To cause to fall by striking; cut or knock down: fell a tree; fell an opponent in boxing.

b. To kill: was felled by an assassin's bullet.

2. To sew or finish (a seam) with the raw edges flattened, turned under, and stitched down.

n.

1. The timber cut down in one season.

2. A felled seam.

[Middle English fellen, from Old English fellan, fyllan.]

fell a·ble adj.

fell

adj.

1. Of an inhumanly cruel nature; fierce: fell hordes.

2. Capable of destroying; lethal: a fell blow.

3. Dire; sinister: by some fell chance.

4. Scots Sharp and biting.

Idiom:

at/in one fell swoop

All at once.

[Middle English fel, from Old French, variant of felon; see felon1.]

fell ness n.

fell

1. The hide of an animal; a pelt.

2. A thin membrane directly beneath the hide.

[Middle English fel, from Old English fell; see pel-3 in Indo-European roots.]

fell

n. Chiefly British

1. An upland stretch of open country; a moor.

2. A barren or stony hill.

[Middle English fel, from Old Norse fell, fjall, mountain, hill.]

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AGOT Bran V Book 1, Chapter 38

SNOW SUMMATION

In Bran’s fifth POV, Bran, now mounted on his specially trained filly Dancer and on his specially Tyrion-designed saddle, joins Robb and a company, including Theon, Maester Luwin, Joseth, four guardsmen, Summer and Grey Wind, on an outing to the market square and the wolfswoods. Even though Bran wishes he and Robb could ride out alone together without a large company, Bran feels exhilarated on Dancer and even thinks riding “almost” felt “as good as flying” (398).

FIRST SENTENCE OF BRAN’S FIFTH POV

“A light snow was falling.”

  • Martin modifies “snow” with “light” – so we are informed that at the POV’s beginning the snow falling is minimal. However, as the action in the POV builds, the snow falls heavier. “The snow was falling more heavily now.”
  • The SNOW” correlates to the “RAIN” in Ned Stark’s previous POV. As the action builds in Ned’s POV, the rain falls harder.
  • Mention of “snow” reminds the readers of the character Jon Snow, and even though Jon Snow does not appear in this POV in a literal sense, Jon Snow’s spirit is a significant part of Bran’s POV. 1) Bran recalls fishing with Jory Cassel and Jon Snow, but Bran did not catch a fish; therefore, Jon Snow gave Bran his fish. 2) Bran asks Robb if he will ever see Jon Snow again. Robb assures him that Jon will visit, just as Benjen used to visit Winterfell; 3) Robb reprimands Theon Greyjoy for taking a risky shot with his arrow that may have just as easily killed Bran as saved him. Robb says that Jon Snow always thought that Theon was an ass.

“Bran could feel the flakes on his face, melting as they touched his skin like the gentlest of rains. He sat straight atop his horse, watching as the iron portcullis was winched upward. Try as he might to keep calm, his heart was fluttering in his chest.”

The snowflakes melting when they touch the skin “feels like the gentlest of rains”: the snow melting on the face is a theme within this POV.

Robb lifted his face to the snow, and the flakes melted on his cheeks.

  • The snowflakes melt on both Bran and Robb’s cheeks, and their watery state is characteristic of crying. The melting snow replaces the salt tears the Stark’s might otherwise shed.

The joy Bran had felt at the ride was gone, melted away like the snowflakes on his face.

  • Bran feels that the joy he felt melted away, like the snowflakes. This symbolizes that the snow is temporary, and Bran associates Snow with Joy.

The association with the snow fall is not intrusive and unpleasant as is the rainfall in Ned’s POV. Here, the snowfall is gentle like a rain. Later, Martin will describe the snow as a “blanket”. The snow was falling more heavily now. Where it touched the ground it melted, but all about him rock and root and branch wore a thin blanket of white.” The “snow” is seemingly a comforting force for the Starks.

"Direwolves," Bran said. Still half-grown, they were as large as any wolf he had ever seen, but the differences were easy to spot, if you knew what to look for. Maester Luwin and Farlen the kennelmaster had taught him. A direwolf had a bigger head and longer legs in proportion to its body, and its snout and jaw were markedly leaner and more pronounced. There was something gaunt and terrible about them as they stood there amid the gently falling snow.

  • Bran is an apt student, absorbing information from Maester Luwin and Farlen about the proportions of a direwolf compared to a wolf.
  • Martin describes the direwolves as “gaunt and terrible”, yet the “falling snow” is GENTLE. This offers a marked contrast in images, even a paradox. The monstrous direwolves stand amid the gently falling snow.

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:bowdown: :bowdown: GREAT JOB, REDRIVER!

I love this and where you are going. May I share a few of my observations? I really am inspired by your thoughts here, so I am going to offer up some of my connections through the novels.

The Wiki of Ice and Fire defines GUEST RIGHT:

“The guest right is a ancient and sacred tradition, that goes back thousands of years in Westeros to the First Men.[1]

The guest right is a sacred law of hospitality. When a guest, be he common born or noble, eats the food and drinks the drink off a host's table beneath the host's roof, the guest right is invoked. When invoked, neither the guest can harm his host nor the host harm his guest for the length of the guest's stay.[1] For either to do so would be to break a sacred covenant that is believed to invoke the wrath of the Gods both old and new. Both the teachings of the Old Gods and the Faith of the Seven hold to this.. .

A lord with a bared sword across his knees is making a traditional sign that he is denying guest right.

It is sometimes customary for a host to give "guest gifts" to the departing guests when they leave the host's dwellings; this usually represents the end of the sacred guest right. In addition, visiting guests will sometimes offer their host "guest gifts" as gratitude for giving them food and shelter.[2]

First, remember this following theory as you read my evidence and commentary: According to the Wiki of Ice and Fire, a “stance” assumed by a lord withholding his hospitality to a visitor is removing his sword from its sheath and laying it across his lap, very much like the posture assumed by the dead Starks and Kings of Winter in the crypts of Winterfell. Does this mean that the depiction of the stone Starks send the message: you are not welcome? [Only Starks belong in Winterfell or [crypts]?

I have long been following the “laws of hospitality” motif in Martin’s series, which also is an important thematic device in Homeric myth and epics. For example, the cause of the Trojan War is sometimes wrongly placed on Helen’s shoulders; although Helen is besieged with guilt for her part in causing the war, the Atrides Agamemnon and Menelaus blame the Trojan Prince Paris who “violated” the sacred laws of hospitality when he abducted Helen of Sparta, taking her to Troy. It is not good form to “seduce” the wife of a host and then “kidnap” her, stealing her away to have for your own.

The Trojan War onset is similar to what we know of Rhaegar abducting Lyanna and raping her, according to Robert; this incident incites Robert’s Rebellion. I wonder then under what circumstances did Rhaegar “steal” Lyanna? Did Rhaegar violate the laws of hospitality in any way?

I always found it ironic that Jaime Lannister first “saves” Bran, even directing him to “TAKE MY HAND!” Martin’s word choice is appropriate – the forces that are the old gods may deliver an apt, karmic-like punishment to Jaime, one in which they do as Jaime directs: they take his HAND. The same hand that pushes Bran, and the same hand that killed Aerys.

Jaime, along with his sister Cersei, violate the laws of hospitality by committing adultery and fornicating in the broken tower located on the property of their HOST Lord Eddard Stark of Winterfell.

It is ironic that Cersei, the proud lioness of Lannister, has her gorgeous mane shorn, and she must parade naked through King’s Landing for a public condemnation. Moreover, Cersei’s name appears on Arya’s “hit list”, or her daily “prayer”, and Arya’s list is shortening, even without Arya’s direct involvement. Maybe the forces that are the old gods are far reaching, even “related” to the godheads of other religions. Him-of-Many-Faces has some likenesses to aspects of the old gods, especially the faces on the weirwood trees. Similarly, the thousand hoods in the vaults below the HoB&W link to Bloodraven telling Bran he will have 1000 eyes, a 100 skins, and knowledge deep as the roots of trees, or pretty close to that.

I also have an idea that usually gets shot down, but I persist: I think that two locations will be the sight of the forces of the old gods seeking justice for the violations of the laws of hospitality: Winterfell and the Wall. The Boltons and company have taken Winterfell under false pretenses, and Bolton’s men take the castle regardless of the fact that there is a Stark in Winterfell: the little lordling in the weirwood watching, taking in the entire show, which includes a mummer’s farce of a wedding. Theon “pretends” to stand-in for a Stark lord, playing the role of Lord Ned Stark’s foster son. The Turncloak is “giving away” Jeyne Poole, who is pretending to be Arya Stark. This “violation” is taking place in the godswood, beneath the heart tree where Ned sat to clean Ice, a sacred place to the Starks.

Lady Dustin suspiciously opens the crypts of Winterfell, and she goes to a great deal of trouble to do so. Maybe by opening the entrance to the crypts, Lady Dustin has allowed an avenue of escape, either for the spirits of the dead Starks, or other?

At the Wall, the men of the Night’s Watch may have to pay for their violations of the laws of hospitality: they killed their host Craster, they raped his wives and daughters, and they killed their own Lord Commander Mormont. More recently, a faction of black brothers assassinated or “attempted to” assassinate Lord Commander Jon Snow. Worthy of note is that Jon Snow NEVER ate from Craster’s board. Martin made a point of mentioning this, demonstrating Jon’s stubbornness. However, I have speculated that Jon will be protected from punishment because he never took Craster’s hospitality.

But back to Winterfell and why there must always be a Stark present: The Stark presence indicates “inhospitality” – no “visitors” are welcome without permission of the host, or ‘the Stark in Winterfell.’ If you take up residence without a Stark host, be forewarned. If there is a breach of hospitality, the Starks, alive, dead, and in-between, unleash a force augmented or inspired by the forces that are the old gods.

The Boltons have not been invited guests to Winterfell: they steal her under falsely, and worse yet, they do so “in the presence” of a Stark in Winterfell: the little lordling in the heart tree who witnesses ALL THE SHINANIGANS!

The murder of ravens is also going to play into what comes down at Winterfell, I think.

Sadly, we learn that Bran knows what is going on in the bedroom with Ramsay, Theon, Jeyne, and a dog, for a raven quorks in the godswood.

Originally I was going to post the movement of the snow in an early Bran point of view, but reading on into the thread, I thought I’d share my thoughts about the crypts and the heart tree – Maester Luwin even says Winterfell is like a tree.

Great post Evita.I never caught that "Take my hand" line from Jaime.Boy,those old gods have a wicked sense of humour :lol: ....

And that observation about the Lords sitting with a bared sword across their laps is new to me too.Perhaps those dead kings and lords are warding out,as well as being warded in.The crypts fascinate me,and I'm sure someone will explore and find something of huge importance down there.I doubt Mance was looking for a way out when he got Holly to grill Theon on the subject.But Jon,with his scary recurring crypt dreams looks the most likely candidate.And those kings with their swords don't exactly make him feel welcome.

You've shown us that Martin is truly eclectic in his source inspirations,from Shakespear to the Greek and Roman myths.The thought Ned has about "a frozen hell reserved for the Starks",got me thinking about Inferno by Dante,because the deeper levels of hell in his vision are icy.And right at the deepest,the 9th,level you have this.

Round 3 is named Ptolomaea, probably after Ptolemy, son of Abubus, who invited Simon Maccabaeus and his sons to a banquet and then killed them.[55] Traitors to their guests are punished here, lying supine in the ice, which covers them, except for their faces. They are punished more severely than the previous traitors, since the relationship to guests is an entirely voluntary one.[56]Fra Alberigo, who had armed soldiers kill his brother at a banquet, explains that sometimes a soul falls here before Atropos cuts the thread of life. Their bodies on Earth are immediately possessed by a demon, so what seems to be a walking man has reached the stage of being incapable of repentance (Canto XXXIII).

Breaching guest rights again.Not looking good for the Freys!!And we encounter a creature called a Geryon,which sounds familiar...

The last two circles of Hell punish sins that involve conscious fraud or treachery. These circles can be reached only by descending a vast cliff, which Dante and Virgil do on the back of Geryon, a winged monster traditionally represented as having three heads or three conjoined bodies.[33] However, Dante describes Geryon as having three mixed natures: human, bestial, and reptilian.[33] Dante's Geryon is an image of fraud, having the face of an honest man on the body of a beautifully colored wyvern, with the furry paws of a lion and a poisonous sting in the pointy scorpion-like tail[34] (Canto XVII).

ETA I should add that I think Martin puts his own unique spin on any source material,be it mythology or literature.

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It seems to me there's something odd about the weather in Westeros in the latter half of ADWD.Yes,a harsh winter has been heralded since the series began in AGOT, mainly because of the unusually long summer.But in the natural course of events you might expect winter to descend from the north,from the Land of Always Winter.

But that doesn't appear to be the case in Dance.The winter weather seems to have started at Winterfell,the worst of it is at Winterfell and it's radiating outwards from there.

This is a very interesting theory.

I wonder if the timeline is right for it to overlap with Sansa's snow castle chapter. In that chapter, She notably thinks that it's the *snow* that wakes her up. Afterwards, she has a strange snow religious experience followed by the single-minded building of snow-Winterfell. If the snow that originally woke her had origins in Winterfell it adds yet another layer to that scene. Maybe Winterfell is calling her home?

A couple quotes from that chapter:

"The castle was all that mattered."

"The snow fell and the castle rose."

"It was the taste of Winterfell." (talking about the snow)

Anyways, it furthers the connection between Winterfell and the snow.

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This is a very interesting theory.

I wonder if the timeline is right for it to overlap with Sansa's snow castle chapter. In that chapter, She notably thinks that the *snow* that wakes her up. Afterwards, she has a strange snow religious experience followed by the single-minded building of snow-Winterfell. If the snow that originally woke her had origins in Winterfell it adds yet another layer to that scene. Maybe Winterfell is calling her home?

A couple quotes from that chapter:

"The castle was all that mattered."

"The snow fell and the castle rose."

"It was the taste of Winterfell." (talking about the snow)

Anyways, it furthers the connection between Winterfell and the snow.

I don't think it's part of the storm we see in ADWD but I think it's a very important chapter in foreshadowing what will happen at Winterfell and the relationship the Starks have to the castle and winter.

This quote caught my eye because it indicates an innate link between Winterfell and Stark blood.

She wondered where the courage had come from,to speak to him so frankly.From Winterfell,she thought.I am stronger within the walls of Winterfell.

It suggests strongly that Sansa might be the Stark to retake and rebuild Winterfell,perhaps destroying Littlefinger in the process.

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There must be always be a Stark in Winterfell.

They were known as the "Kings of Winter."

Whenever the Starks have gone South, bad things happened to them.

Yes, I definitely think there is a "live" connection between them and the foundations of Winterfell, the Weirwoods, and perhaps even the Others......

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There must be always be a Stark in Winterfell.

They were known as the "Kings of Winter."

Whenever the Starks have gone South, bad things happened to them.

Also, are the dragons a force for good, and the Others a force of evil?

Or, is it backwards?

The Others could be a symptom of the corruption of The First Men, and the Dragons a symbol of subjugation.

But can the Dragons themselves survive a blizzard when one of the dragons of Aegon the Conquerers was grounded in a rain storm in the Riverlands?

Perhaps the Long Winter is to stop the Dragons.

Or

Maybe the hotsprings of Winterfell are nurturing something else, something else that Bran thought he saw in the fiery smoke of WF. Perhaps it has it's own dragons to counter the Targaryens and Targaryen subjugation.

So yes, I definitely think there is a "live" connection between them and the foundations of Winterfell, the Weirwoods, and perhaps even the Others......

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There must be always be a Stark in Winterfell.

They were known as the "Kings of Winter."

Whenever the Starks have gone South, bad things happened to them.

Also, are the dragons a force for good, and the Others a force of evil?

Or, is it backwards?

The Others could be a symptom of the corruption of The First Men, and the Dragons a symbol of subjugation.

But can the Dragons themselves survive a blizzard when one of the dragons of Aegon the Conquerers was grounded in a rain storm in the Riverlands?

Perhaps the Long Winter is to stop the Dragons.

Or

Maybe the hotsprings of Winterfell are nurturing something else, something else that Bran thought he saw in the fiery smoke of WF. Perhaps it has it's own dragons to counter the Targaryens and Targaryen subjugation.

So yes, I definitely think there is a "live" connection between them and the foundations of Winterfell, the Weirwoods, and perhaps even the Others......

It's hard to know how winter would affect dragons.Silverwing,made it as far as the Wall,at least,so perhaps they can handle the cold.

But I think we'll just have to wait and see.

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It's hard to know how winter would affect dragons.Silverwing,made it as far as the Wall,at least,so perhaps they can handle the cold.

But I think we'll just have to wait and see.

Woops, sorry for the double-post.

Yes, but I think we can speculate that when the dragons were coming North, it was in the midst of Spring/Summer?

I think it might be actually when it's Winter, the Starks are at their most powerful if there is any metaphysical/Supernatural connection. And I think it's interesting that both the Direwolves and the Dragons appeared roughly around the same time.

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I don't think it's part of the storm we see in ADWD but I think it's a very important chapter in foreshadowing what will happen at Winterfell and the relationship the Starks have to the castle and winter.

This quote caught my eye because it indicates an innate link between Winterfell and Stark blood.

She wondered where the courage had come from,to speak to him so frankly.From Winterfell,she thought.I am stronger within the walls of Winterfell.

It suggests strongly that Sansa might be the Stark to retake and rebuild Winterfell,perhaps destroying Littlefinger in the process.

:bowdown: :bowdown: GREAT CATCH with this quote by Sansa, REDRIVER. This reinforces Maester Luwin comparing Winterfell to a tree, and the hot pools that spread warmth through the walls like blood circulating in a human's body. The castle and the tree are ALIVE!

And as far as the true "evil" in a song of ice and fire, my bet is on mankind, not an outside faction or entity. Well, at least that is what I am thinking at this point.

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As anything in Martin world, I don´t think we will see a truly evil side, but side fighting side for what they believe is right... Perhaps the Others are fighting for their survival as much as humans do, and the CotF are tired from being at war for so long against the humans... It´s true that humans are the most vicious animal in the world, destroying and consuming... but other species do this as well... I think ultimatly, the battle will be a survival one.

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Someone directed me to this thread after I questioned the meaning of "there must always be a Stark in Winterfell" along with "Winter is coming" and was trying to figure out what they meant. Glad to find the thread and interesting theories coming forth. Putting these 2 mottos together along with 'the north remembers' I'm wondering if it means that there needs to be a Stark in Winterfell in order for winter to end. We know there have been winters before because they've been mentioned but they've also always ended (and there's always been a Stark in Winterfell). Winterfell could mean the fall of winter - winter has been survived (defeated) and without a Stark in winterfell it's not possible to have winter defeated.

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Someone directed me to this thread after I questioned the meaning of "there must always be a Stark in Winterfell" along with "Winter is coming" and was trying to figure out what they meant. Glad to find the thread and interesting theories coming forth. Putting these 2 mottos together along with 'the north remembers' I'm wondering if it means that there needs to be a Stark in Winterfell in order for winter to end. We know there have been winters before because they've been mentioned but they've also always ended (and there's always been a Stark in Winterfell). Winterfell could mean the fall of winter - winter has been survived (defeated) and without a Stark in winterfell it's not possible to have winter defeated.

It's such an interesting concept, and I think it holds water honestly.

Whats the last time there were no Starks in Winterfell? Roberts Rebellion perhaps? That was during winter correct? The Tourny at Herrenhall was during a "false spring" right, well maybe spring was in fact coming and then because of that day, and what later led to the rebellion and the killing of a lot of Starks, Winter returned until the Rebellion ended and Ned returned and all was right again...for a long time until well...now.

The longer they're away the worse it gets. The book may end with the coming of a new Spring and a Stark coming home.

Edit: Its also interesting to note some believe the harsher winters are tied to the lack of dragons in the world.

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I'm pretty sure that during Robert's rebellion Benjen was left as the Stark at Winterfell which made me wonder what happened during that time to make him take up the black. Could be wrong and honestly, I'm too lazy to look it up but, I'm pretty sure I remember Benjen being left as lord of Winterfell during the rebellion.

I'm not saying that as long as there's a Stark at Winterfell there will be no winter - winter comes and goes - I'm suggesting that there need to be a Stark at Winterfell for winter to go.

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