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redriver

Winter Fell?

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It's such an interesting concept, and I think it holds water honestly.

Whats the last time there were no Starks in Winterfell? Roberts Rebellion perhaps? That was during winter correct? The Tourny at Herrenhall was during a "false spring" right, well maybe spring was in fact coming and then because of that day, and what later led to the rebellion and the killing of a lot of Starks, Winter returned until the Rebellion ended and Ned returned and all was right again...for a long time until well...now.

The longer they're away the worse it gets. The book may end with the coming of a new Spring and a Stark coming home.

Edit: Its also interesting to note some believe the harsher winters are tied to the lack of dragons in the world.

c

Good points. Now, how can we learn the cycle of the winters? Not to get of topic, but are not the maesters always looking through lenses and taking down notes and such to predict when the weather, or winter specifically, will come? In Bran's 3EC dream, he even sees Maester Luwin looking through his lens and writing in his notebook.

There are probably scrolls that are kept in the Citadel that may have more information regarding the passing of the seasons and the survival of the great houses during especially hard times, especially since the maesters stay in contact with the Citadel. Maybe Samwell will learn additional information now that he is in Old Town.

Sorry - I was speculating along with your good ideas.Early in AGoT, Catelyn makes a remark about the WF hotsprings meaning the difference between life and death in the long winters. Maybe during these dire times, the Stark neighbors seek protection and sustenance from Winterfell when their stores are depleted. I recall during the Fall Harvest, Bran meeting with those pledging fealty to Winterfell and there was much discussion of storing up the harvests for the winter. Then with the war and the harvests lost, how will people in general fair through winter? Just speculating: but WF may be a safe haven for more than the Starks, but only if the Starks are in residence - formally or symbolically.

The swords unsheathed on the Stark statues in the crypts suggest that the Starks "do" refuse certain factions hospitality, and it maybe during the winter when many souls will seek out Winterfell to help families to survive. Who would the Starks "not" assist? I guess I can answer that.

I am going to go through my early AGoT notes because I am sure there are early hints at the "winter" and the "Starks in WF".

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c

Good points. Now, how can we learn the cycle of the winters? Not to get of topic, but are not the maesters always looking through lenses and taking down notes and such to predict when the weather, or winter specifically, will come? In Bran's 3EC dream, he even sees Maester Luwin looking through his lens and writing in his notebook.

There are probably scrolls that are kept in the Citadel that may have more information regarding the passing of the seasons and the survival of the great houses during especially hard times, especially since the maesters stay in contact with the Citadel. Maybe Samwell will learn additional information now that he is in Old Town.

Sorry - I was speculating along with your good ideas.Early in AGoT, Catelyn makes a remark about the WF hotsprings meaning the difference between life and death in the long winters. Maybe during these dire times, the Stark neighbors seek protection and sustenance from Winterfell when their stores are depleted. I recall during the Fall Harvest, Bran meeting with those pledging fealty to Winterfell and there was much discussion of storing up the harvests for the winter. Then with the war and the harvests lost, how will people in general fair through winter? Just speculating: but WF may be a safe haven for more than the Starks, but only if the Starks are in residence - formally or symbolically.

The swords unsheathed on the Stark statues in the crypts suggest that the Starks "do" refuse certain factions hospitality, and it maybe during the winter when many souls will seek out Winterfell to help families to survive. Who would the Starks "not" assist? I guess I can answer that.

I am going to go through my early AGoT notes because I am sure there are early hints at the "winter" and the "Starks in WF".

The swords unsheathed are those of the dead lords and kings of Winterfell so perhaps they are refusing hospitality to others who are dead - keeping the dead at bay.

I'm not sure the Citadel would have much informations about this winter as I believe it's a winter that hasn't been seen since the beginning of recorded time. The first men may have survived the previous such winter and that's why the Starks (who are descended from them) hold Winterfell and remember. Why there must always be a Stark at Winterfell because they are the direct descendents and something in their genetics will allow them to defeat the endless winter (their warging abilities must come into play for this).

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I'm pretty sure that during Robert's rebellion Benjen was left as the Stark at Winterfell which made me wonder what happened during that time to make him take up the black. Could be wrong and honestly, I'm too lazy to look it up but, I'm pretty sure I remember Benjen being left as lord of Winterfell during the rebellion.

I'm not saying that as long as there's a Stark at Winterfell there will be no winter - winter comes and goes - I'm suggesting that there need to be a Stark at Winterfell for winter to go.

Hmm I think I got carried away with the False Spring stuff and all that. I think Benjen was the Stark in WF now that you mention it, Also I guess you could say at that point Robb was in Winterfell, even if he was in Catelyn at the time...stretch there perhaps.

Either way I think theres definitely some old god magic going on in Winterfell. It brings me back to what Bran saw while being the WF weirwood tree, and the blood sacrifice he witnessed. Could have something to do with it maybe?

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The swords unsheathed are those of the dead lords and kings of Winterfell so perhaps they are refusing hospitality to others who are dead - keeping the dead at bay.

I'm not sure the Citadel would have much informations about this winter as I believe it's a winter that hasn't been seen since the beginning of recorded time. The first men may have survived the previous such winter and that's why the Starks (who are descended from them) hold Winterfell and remember. Why there must always be a Stark at Winterfell because they are the direct descendents and something in their genetics will allow them to defeat the endless winter (their warging abilities must come into play for this).

Stark Born Again: Thank you for your clarification. And you are right - when did they even have "written word"? Only the educated folk can read and write, so the value of any books and scrolls seem limited to the wealthy who can afford hand-copied documents for the libraries. That is why Maester Aemon was taking those treasured books with him to the Citadel, if I recall.

Something I do remember: Sam found a map of the weirwoods with their faces in the wormways. Maybe the early scrolls are just picture books of sorts?

It is fun speculating.

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Hmm I think I got carried away with the False Spring stuff and all that. I think Benjen was the Stark in WF now that you mention it, Also I guess you could say at that point Robb was in Winterfell, even if he was in Catelyn at the time...stretch there perhaps.

Either way I think theres definitely some old god magic going on in Winterfell. It brings me back to what Bran saw while being the WF weirwood tree, and the blood sacrifice he witnessed. Could have something to do with it maybe?

Beric Zoolander: Absolutely agree with you: I think that Martin hints at a blood sacrifice - maybe even to appease the forces that are the old gods - or some other force - to stay off the worst of the weather. [i know how they feel! We have had an endless winter in PA this time around!]

The blood sacrifice also makes me think that it could be the force that reanimates the spirits of the dead Starks in the crypts. But I am just speculating on your ideas. Good points. This is very interesting - and I think it could be important.

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It's such an interesting concept, and I think it holds water honestly.

Whats the last time there were no Starks in Winterfell? Roberts Rebellion perhaps? That was during winter correct? The Tourny at Herrenhall was during a "false spring" right, well maybe spring was in fact coming and then because of that day, and what later led to the rebellion and the killing of a lot of Starks, Winter returned until the Rebellion ended and Ned returned and all was right again...for a long time until well...now.

The longer they're away the worse it gets. The book may end with the coming of a new Spring and a Stark coming home.

Edit: Its also interesting to note some believe the harsher winters are tied to the lack of dragons in the world.

In one sense you can say there has never been a time before Ramsay married fArya that there was no Stark in Winterfell.The Bael story,if true,comes close,but the actions of Bael save the day,albeit through the female line.

The female line is rightly deemed just as significant as the male.When Ned first uses the words "There must always be a Stark in Winterfell",he says it to Catelyn as the reason she must remain,whilst he goes south with Robert.She married Ned in front of a heart tree,therefore she is a Stark.

So,even if Benjen wasn't in Winterfell during Robert's rebellion,no doubt female Starks were.The same applies to the Tourney at Harrenhall.

I take the real start of the current Stark absence to be the fake marriage,not when Bran and Rickon left.By that time,Theon had been removed by Ramsay and he laid no claim to WF then,he just burned it.Theon wasn't recognized as Prince of Winterfell by anyone apart from himself,and Robb still held the title of Lord,despite his absence.

Essentially I'm speculating that a Stark in Winterfell is a legal issue in sight of the old gods,rather than a question of physical presence.

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I think this quote alone is hugely important to everything here. Which was mentioned in the OP.

]North and north and north he looked,to the curtain of light at the end of the world,and then beyond that curtain.He looked deep into the heart of winter,and then he cried out,afraid,and the heat of his tears burned on his cheeks.

Now you know,the crow whispered,as it sat on his shoulder.Now you know why you must live.

"Why?"Bran said,not understanding,falling,falling.

Because Winter is coming.

Winter is coming. If you look at that Bran passage theres actually a ton of insight as to what is to come, he sees most of the world in his dream, its pretty interesting.

This great Long Winter, and the coming of the Great Other etc... All stems from this and is tied to Winterfell. Makes me wonder what is going to happen and if the paths the Starks took are where they should be. Such as how is Arya or Sansa or Rickon going to play their part in defending the realm from this Winter. Its more clear how Bran and Jon are.

I wonder if there is some old forgotten thing in the crypts that may help. Similar to at the wall how they found dragon glass and it was almost forgotten what its use would be.

Also the return of Dragons is no coincidence, they will play a big part in ending it and bringing back Spring.

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I think this quote alone is hugely important to everything here. Which was mentioned in the OP.

Winter is coming. If you look at that Bran passage theres actually a ton of insight as to what is to come, he sees most of the world in his dream, its pretty interesting.

This great Long Winter, and the coming of the Great Other etc... All stems from this and is tied to Winterfell. Makes me wonder what is going to happen and if the paths the Starks took are where they should be. Such as how is Arya or Sansa or Rickon going to play their part in defending the realm from this Winter. Its more clear how Bran and Jon are.

I wonder if there is some old forgotten thing in the crypts that may help. Similar to at the wall how they found dragon glass and it was almost forgotten what its use would be.

Also the return of Dragons is no coincidence, they will play a big part in ending it and bringing back Spring.

I´m not so sure... I have a feeling that the Starks will not defend the realm from the winter, but embrace it and use it as their weapon. Winter is Coming is not an warning, it´s a battle cry!

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As far as we know Starks are around for 8000 years.Some people believe that the longer a family lives around a place the stronger their bond with that place gets.Winterfell is as old as the Wall and WF only knew one master all those years the Stark family.So if we assume Brandon the Builder build both WF and Wall then we can assume that Wf too has the same magical barriers against the Others and WF too intesify magical powers.(according to mel her powers work better since she came to the wall)

Now walk with me folks.First after death both warg and greenseers souls go to the weirwoods.It is rumored that first Stark kings were wargs the other unwarg folks souls rest under WF in the crypts but the souls of the warg kings passed to the weirwoods inside WF.So aside from its natural defences and magical barriers WF also is under the protection of the Old Gods.Because when someone passes to werwood you became a part of the Old Gods.If I understand the concept of Old Gods it means that Old Gods are a collective being.Old Gods are the collective knowledge and power of the death wargs and greenseers whose souls are passed to the weirwoods.This finishes the first part.The second part is that when the Starks were forced to left WF Old Gods were angered but after Ramsay claiming WF and tricking people infront of the heart tree by claiming he is marrying Arya Stark Old Gods unlished their anger.Now Roose Bolton thinks Old Gods are on his side but I think this blizzard will help Stannis more then it will help Roose Bolton.I think with Old Gods help Bran will interfere and tell the Northmen the will of the Old gods.

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I think this quote alone is hugely important to everything here. Which was mentioned in the OP.

Winter is coming. If you look at that Bran passage theres actually a ton of insight as to what is to come, he sees most of the world in his dream, its pretty interesting.

This great Long Winter, and the coming of the Great Other etc... All stems from this and is tied to Winterfell. Makes me wonder what is going to happen and if the paths the Starks took are where they should be. Such as how is Arya or Sansa or Rickon going to play their part in defending the realm from this Winter. Its more clear how Bran and Jon are.

I wonder if there is some old forgotten thing in the crypts that may help. Similar to at the wall how they found dragon glass and it was almost forgotten what its use would be.

Also the return of Dragons is no coincidence, they will play a big part in ending it and bringing back Spring.

:bowdown: :bowdown: BERIC ZOOLANDER: Great ideas. I also think those crypts are very important and will lead to something "big".

I will share a few of my ideas about the other Starks and how they will/may fit in, especially with the "weather" element. Not long ago, I posted a thread on Arya and the Water Motif in Braavos. We filled some 22+ pages of evidence from the novels that involve Arya and her association with water, not only in Braavos.

As we plodded along, I proposed that each Stark may be associated with an element, or an aspect of nature: Arya/water; Sansa/air; Bran/wood and roots and stone; Jon / ice and fire; Rickon / brute strength. Now I do not have all the particulars worked out, but we kicked about some neat stuff that seems possible. For instance, there seemed to be sufficient evidence that Arya, with her water association, may warg Casso King of Seals and then move onto bigger sea creatures, like even a kracken. All these elements are interdependent on one another. Water becomes Snow - out-of-control fire is quenched with water, and so on.

I guess we were even suggesting that the Starks might be a force like the Avengers who all must join together to balance the song of ice and fire. We also worked in all the religous aspects - and Howland Reed and Arya will eventually join up since they allianced are water forces - or they have a "green" gift that allows them to embrace a certain element. I believe Arya's training mirrors Bran's, and when she drinks ffrom the cold cup, it is awakening her "third eye" in

the same way the weirwood paste is awakening Bran's gifts that are part of his blood, the blood of the First Men.

It may sound confused, but we really had excellent evidence and analytical commentary.

Now with Redriver's theory, it makes sense that the "snow" may be a "protector" and a "power" gifted to the Starks by the forces that are the old gods.

I only presented our theory in its most basic form and left out details so as not to get off topic. :blushing:

But good thoughts. Keep them coming. This is what I like to see on threads: posters brainstorming together to come up with ideas - and posters "inspiring" others with ideas. I do not have all the answers for sure, but it sure is mentally stimulating to discuss Martin with others who appreciate his novels.

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I´m not so sure... I have a feeling that the Starks will not defend the realm from the winter, but embrace it and use it as their weapon. Winter is Coming is not an warning, it´s a battle cry!

:bowdown: :bowdown: PROFION: I LOVE YOUR IDEA TOO. We figured in our Arya/Water Thread that a "water" force is necessary when dragons are involved. No matter how well-intentioned a dragon's flame may be, out-of-control fires are a hazard of the beast - so the dragons and the direwolves with their Stark counterparts will need to help one another to restore the balance.

I love "Winter is coming" as a battlecry! :commie:

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As far as we know Starks are around for 8000 years.Some people believe that the longer a family lives around a place the stronger their bond with that place gets.Winterfell is as old as the Wall and WF only knew one master all those years the Stark family.So if we assume Brandon the Builder build both WF and Wall then we can assume that Wf too has the same magical barriers against the Others and WF too intesify magical powers.(according to mel her powers work better since she came to the wall)

Now walk with me folks.First after death both warg and greenseers souls go to the weirwoods.It is rumored that first Stark kings were wargs the other unwarg folks souls rest under WF in the crypts but the souls of the warg kings passed to the weirwoods inside WF.So aside from its natural defences and magical barriers WF also is under the protection of the Old Gods.Because when someone passes to werwood you became a part of the Old Gods.If I understand the concept of Old Gods it means that Old Gods are a collective being.Old Gods are the collective knowledge and power of the death wargs and greenseers whose souls are passed to the weirwoods.This finishes the first part.The second part is that when the Starks were forced to left WF Old Gods were angered but after Ramsay claiming WF and tricking people infront of the heart tree by claiming he is marrying Arya Stark Old Gods unlished their anger.Now Roose Bolton thinks Old Gods are on his side but I think this blizzard will help Stannis more then it will help Roose Bolton.I think with Old Gods help Bran will interfere and tell the Northmen the will of the Old gods.

:bowdown: :bowdown: JON STARK I: I agree with your assessment, and I support many of your theories; but I am trying to work in the angle of the violations of the laws of hospitality as the "evil force" of men that brings on the imbalance with nature and the weather. I do think it is made clear even early in a GoT that the Stark spirits are somehow resting in the roots of the "heart tree" in WF. The ward at the Wall and the ward on the crypts will break similtaneously, I think. With the snow pounding WF - and the snow at the Wall - plus the violations of hospitality at both venues bodes "bloody justice", probably with the help of a new greenseer lordling who has a vested interest in both locales.

I am looking forward to seeing the Stark spirits rise - how can they not? And their direwolves too!

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I´m not so sure... I have a feeling that the Starks will not defend the realm from the winter, but embrace it and use it as their weapon. Winter is Coming is not an warning, it´s a battle cry!

Great observation, and I can see that connection, but the Starks themselves have remember their connections and thats where Bran comes in.

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Great observation, and I can see that connection, but the Starks themselves have remember their connections and thats where Bran comes in.

:bowdown: :bowdown: ALIA OF THE KNIFE: YOU ARE SO RIGHT! Another dah for me - :bang: andI always like to tack on that phrase that Bran will remember "what the First Men knew now forgotten in Winterfell"!!

I just found your TOJ thread. I read the whole thing through, too. Very nice job! No one argued or flamed - very respectul posters.

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:bowdown: :bowdown: ALIA OF THE KNIFE: YOU ARE SO RIGHT! Another dah for me - :bang: andI always like to tack on that phrase that Bran will remember "what the First Men knew now forgotten in Winterfell"!!

I just found your TOJ thread. I read the whole thing through, too. Very nice job! No one argued or flamed - very respectul posters.

Thanks Evita!

Yes, it was always a topic that came up in R+L=J, and not that thats wrong, but it seemed like it deserved it's own thread.

And you are correct, given the topic, it is quite amazing that everyone was so polite.

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The swords unsheathed are those of the dead lords and kings of Winterfell so perhaps they are refusing hospitality to others who are dead - keeping the dead at bay.

I'm not sure the Citadel would have much informations about this winter as I believe it's a winter that hasn't been seen since the beginning of recorded time. The first men may have survived the previous such winter and that's why the Starks (who are descended from them) hold Winterfell and remember. Why there must always be a Stark at Winterfell because they are the direct descendents and something in their genetics will allow them to defeat the endless winter (their warging abilities must come into play for this).

HELLO ONCE MORE, STARK BORN AGAIN. I found a quote about the Citadel and the maesters tracking the season. That is why I wondered if they kept records from the past. In this passage from Tyrion POV III book I AGoT, Lord Commander Mormont reacts to Tyrion's insensitivity to the gravity of impending winter:

"When I was a boy," Tyrion replied, "my wet nurse told me that one day, if men were good, the gods would give the world a summer without ending. Perhaps we've been better than we thought, and the Great Summer is finally at hand." He grinned.

The Lord Commander did not seem amused. "You are not fool enough to believe that, my lord. Already the days grow shorter. There can be no mistake, Aemon has had letters from the Citadel, findings in accord with his own. The end of summer stares us in the face."

Mormont points out that Maester Aemon has been watching the sky and recording his findings regarding the shortening of the days. [Maester Luwin does the same, and Bran observes him doing so in his 3EC vision earlier.] Maester Aemon even has letters from the Citadel that confirm the end of summer, and winter is coming.

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I like the idea of "Winter is Coming" as a warcry and that the Starks thrive in the winter.

In ADWD, when we're being told some of the history of the wolf's den, it was said that it was captured by Stepstones, and it was during the winter when the Starks took it back.

Then a long cruel winter fell,” said Ser Bartimus. “The White Knife froze hard, and even the firth was icing up. The winds came howling from the north and drove them slavers inside to huddle round their fires, and whilst they warmed themselves the new king come down on them. Brandon Stark this was, Edrick Snowbeard’s great-grandson, him that men called Ice Eyes. He took the Wolf’s Den back, stripped the slavers naked, and gave them to the slaves he’d found chained up in the dungeons. It’s said they hung their entrails in the branches of the heart tree, as an offering to the gods. The old gods, not these new ones from the south. Your Seven don’t know winter, and winter don’t know them.”

edit: Also, there's that offering to the gods as well that may tie in with the sacrifices.

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HELLO ONCE MORE, STARK BORN AGAIN. I found a quote about the Citadel and the maesters tracking the season. That is why I wondered if they kept records from the past. In this passage from Tyrion POV III book I AGoT, Lord Commander Mormont reacts to Tyrion's insensitivity to the gravity of impending winter:

"When I was a boy," Tyrion replied, "my wet nurse told me that one day, if men were good, the gods would give the world a summer without ending. Perhaps we've been better than we thought, and the Great Summer is finally at hand." He grinned.

The Lord Commander did not seem amused. "You are not fool enough to believe that, my lord. Already the days grow shorter. There can be no mistake, Aemon has had letters from the Citadel, findings in accord with his own. The end of summer stares us in the face."

Mormont points out that Maester Aemon has been watching the sky and recording his findings regarding the shortening of the days. [Maester Luwin does the same, and Bran observes him doing so in his 3EC vision earlier.] Maester Aemon even has letters from the Citadel that confirm the end of summer, and winter is coming.

Thanks for looking that up - I was pretty sure they kept track somehow or other - just wonder how long it goes back. Of course Tyrion was talking about the Soutron gods and not the old gods - I think it's the old gods that are responsible for the winter coming, perhaps the new gods are responsible for the dragons and this is not going to be clash of the kings anymore but rather clash of the gods. Which ones will win????

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I like the idea of "Winter is Coming" as a warcry and that the Starks thrive in the winter.

In ADWD, when we're being told some of the history of the wolf's den, it was said that it was captured by Stepstones, and it was during the winter when the Starks took it back.

edit: Also, there's that offering to the gods as well that may tie in with the sacrifices.

Interesting that Brandon Stark (I believe he was also Brandon the Builder) was referred to as Ice Eyes - (wondering why anyone??)

For some reason I was unable to include the quote you found which mentioned the "Ice Eyes".

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I like the idea of "Winter is Coming" as a warcry and that the Starks thrive in the winter.

In ADWD, when we're being told some of the history of the wolf's den, it was said that it was captured by Stepstones, and it was during the winter when the Starks took it back.

edit: Also, there's that offering to the gods as well that may tie in with the sacrifices.

:bowdown: :bowdown: NENYA: GREAT QUOTE FIND! I bet Redriver will like that one, especially with Winter used as a subject and "fell" as the verb in the sentence.

Also, if this is not ironic: Ned Stark wishes to deliver the king's justice to Jorah Mormont for trying to sell poachers to some Tyroshi slavers. That is how Jorah ends up far from Bear Island. The quote about the Wolf's Den involves slaves and slavers. :dunno:

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