Winter Fell?

[Black Crow]

I had many talks with George. He told me of the ice swords, and the reflective, camouflaging armor that picks up the images of the things around it like a clear, still pond. He spoke a lot about what they were not, but what they were was harder to put into words. Here is what George said, in one e-mail: 'The Others are not dead. They are strange, beautiful… think, oh… the Sidhe made of ice, something like that… a different sort of life… inhuman, elegant, dangerous.

That goes way beyond a this is what they look like. The artist is demanding and GRRM is telling him how to visualise them. He has to know much more than that they are tall with white skin and blue eyes, he has to be able to capture their character as well and that's what's important about this description because it tells us how GRRM sees them and what's he's thinking about when he visualises them.

[greensleeves]

....

:bowdown: :bowdown: Thank you for the kind words evita mgfs! Much love right back at you!

I do think there is a lot connecting Sansa to Winterfell and the winter. Beyond the snow-castle chapter, there's also the ghost of high heart's prophecy.

In this prophecy, Sansa slays "a savage giant in a castle built of snow." If we assume this prophecy is unfulfilled, then it seems to suggest that Sansa will be in another castle built of snow (ignore the giant part for now). This may mean that she will build another snow-castle or it could be referring to Winterfell. If the redriver's theory is right, then Winterfell's supernatural connection to winter could make it the 'castle built of snow' and Sansa will be there.

There's also a lot of material in Sansa's last AFFC chapter:

Even the gods were silent. The Eyrie boasted a sept, but no septon; a godswood, but no heart tree. No prayers are answered here, she often thought, though some days she felt so lonely she had to try. Only the wind answered her, sighing endlessly around the seven slim white towers and rattling the Moon Door every time it gusted.

The gods of the seven and the old gods are not answering her prayers. Instead, the winter winds answer her. Later on in this same chapter she associates the winds with a ghost wolf, thus connecting the wind with wolves (house stark/winterfell) and the dead (crypts of winterfell?).

In addition to all of this foreshadowing, there may be more evidence of some supernatural association between Sansa and winter.

At the beginning of the chapter, it's winter at the Eyrie (where Sansa is) and autumn in the valley below. Towards the start of the chapter, she states that "on the valley floor autumn still lingered, warm and golden" and "far below the Vale stretched green and golden." She also talks about crossing the snow line in a timely manner. Clearly, there is no snow at the Gates of the Moon.

In contrast, the Eyrie is "wrapped in an icy mantle, the Giant's Lance above buried in waist deep snows." Her thoughts also suggest that it has been winter at the Eyrie for some time: "but winter had closed around the mountain peaks. They had weathered three snowstorms, and an ice storm that transformed the castle into crystal for a fortnight."

However, "the snow began to fall as they were leaving Stone", just as dusk falls.

Half the night was gone before they sighted the lights of the Gates of the Moon through the falling snow. The last part of their journey was the most peaceful. The snow fell steadily, cloaking all the world in white.

So essentially, winter comes with Sansa down the mountain.

Edit: Note that it is also a bright, sunny day at the beginning of the chapter. When they are leaving, however, Mya notes that "there's a smell of snow in the air."

[Alia of the knife]

I had many talks with George. He told me of the ice swords, and the reflective, camouflaging armor that picks up the images of the things around it like a clear, still pond. He spoke a lot about what they were not, but what they were was harder to put into words. Here is what George said, in one e-mail: 'The Others are not dead. They are strange, beautiful… think, oh… the Sidhe made of ice, something like that… a different sort of life… inhuman, elegant, dangerous.

That goes way beyond a this is what they look like. The artist is demanding and GRRM is telling him how to visualise them. He has to know much more than that they are tall with white skin and blue eyes, he has to be able to capture their character as well and that's what's important about this description because it tells us how GRRM sees them and what's he's thinking about when he visualises them.

That is very much how I envisioned them in my mind, and again, I don't tend to them wholly evil, but a force to be respected. What they do and why remains to be seen, but I suspect along with a few others it has to do with some imbalance and they are reactiing to it.

:bowdown: :bowdown: Thank you for the kind words evita mgfs! Much love right back at you!

I do think there is a lot connecting Sansa to Winterfell and the winter. Beyond the snow-castle chapter, there's also the ghost of high heart's prophecy.

In this prophecy, Sansa slays "a savage giant in a castle built of snow." If we assume this prophecy is unfulfilled, then it seems to suggest that Sansa will be in another castle built of snow (ignore the giant part for now). This may mean that she will build another snow-castle or it could be referring to Winterfell. If the redriver's theory is right, then Winterfell's supernatural connection to winter could make it the 'castle built of snow' and Sansa will be there.

There's also a lot of material in Sansa's last AFFC chapter:

The gods of the seven and the old gods are not answering her prayers. Instead, the winter winds answer her. Later on in this same chapter she associates the winds with a ghost wolf, thus connecting the wind with wolves (house stark/winterfell) and the dead (crypts of winterfell?).

In addition to all of this foreshadowing, there may be more evidence of some supernatural association between Sansa and winter.

At the beginning of the chapter, it's winter at the Eyrie (where Sansa is) and autumn in the valley below. Towards the start of the chapter, she states that "on the valley floor autumn still lingered, warm and golden" and "far below the Vale stretched green and golden." She also talks about crossing the snow line in a timely manner. Clearly, there is no snow at the Gates of the Moon.

In contrast, the Eyrie is "wrapped in an icy mantle, the Giant's Lance above buried in waist deep snows." Her thoughts also suggest that it has been winter at the Eyrie for some time: "but winter had closed around the mountain peaks. They had weathered three snowstorms, and an ice storm that transformed the castle into crystal for a fortnight."

However, "the snow began to fall as they were leaving Stone", just as dusk falls.

So essentially, winter comes with Sansa down the mountain.

Edit: Note that it is also a bright, sunny day at the beginning of the chapter. When they are leaving, however, Mya notes that "there's a smell of snow in the air."

I think Sansas experiences make sense in how she is being uniquely prepared for the Long Night.

Like any young person itching to leave what they know, it's not until they experience the reality of what they idolized and find it wanting that they appreciate what they left behind, and actually helps solidify her idenity.

It truly is you don't know who you are, or what you had until it was lost, and in this way, Sansa is being strengthened and made battle-ready for what is to come in way that wouldn't have happened had her life progressed normally.

[Mace Cooterian]

I had many talks with George. He told me of the ice swords, and the reflective, camouflaging armor that picks up the images of the things around it like a clear, still pond. He spoke a lot about what they were not, but what they were was harder to put into words. Here is what George said, in one e-mail: 'The Others are not dead. They are strange, beautiful… think, oh… the Sidhe made of ice, something like that… a different sort of life… inhuman, elegant, dangerous.

That is very much how I envisioned them in my mind, and again, I don't tend to them wholly evil, but a force to be respected. What they do and why remains to be seen, but I suspect along with a few others it has to do with some imbalance and they are reactiing to it.

In terms of reacting to the imbalance, where do you think this is directed? Do they fear their extinction; and without fighting they will end up as......puddles of water? Or perhaps they are looking to protect the imbalance? In this instance I suppose it would be the protection of Winter.

[Black Crow]

I think it may be much simpler. Winter and the Lands of Always Winter are their natural habitat. Winter is coming and so are they.

[alienarea]

I think it may be much simpler. Winter and the Lands of Always Winter are their natural habitat. Winter is coming and so are they.

Or, even simpler, they are Winter. With the return of magic the seasons are able to take human shape.And the CotF caused all this by dabbling in black magic.

[Beric Zoolander]

Its that question, which I believe Sam poses. Do they bring the cold or does the cold bring them, is it dark when they come or do they bring the dark... Will Winter come because of them or are they coming because of the long foretold Winter. Will they have to be defeated for spring to return? It sounds like it.

They are clearly the creatures of Ice, Cold, Winter, Darkness.

[Alia of the knife]

In terms of reacting to the imbalance, where do you think this is directed? Do they fear their extinction; and without fighting they will end up as......puddles of water? Or perhaps they are looking to protect the imbalance? In this instance I suppose it would be the protection of Winter.

I think of almost as it is in Natve American spirituality where Man is out of harmony with his enviromment and Nature.

[Black Crow]

Have a wander across to Heresy, you may enjoy it. :cool4:

[The Last Grenseer]

^{I think Martin did it for symbolic reasons, like a strom is about to erupt, and the center of the storm is Winterfell}

[Beric Zoolander]

Was just thinking about this while reading another topic. Not only are the Starks somewhat linked to different elements but so are many of the major houses of Westeros.

Winterfell Linked to Winter

combats Winter it with the natural springs. Built by Bran the Builder, possibly with help from Giants.

Storms End Linked to Storm Gods

Legends claim it was built by the first Storm King Durran, who declared war against the gods after they killed his guests and family at his wedding to Elenei. He created six castles each larger and stronger than the last until he created Storms End as it is now. It is said he had help from the children of the forrest for magic to resist storms. Some also believe Bran the Builder had a hand it its construction.

The Eyrie Linked to Air and Sky

Artys Arryn drove the First Men from the Vale and ascended to the Eyrie on the back of a great falcon and slew the Griffin King

Dragonstone Linked to Fire

Built over rivers of fire, and constructed with magic of old Valaryia, the house of dragons and dragon fire.

These become less convincing but...I guess they are lesser houses to an extent.

Pyke Linked to the Sea and Drowned God

Based on Islands in the water

Dorne/Sunspear As far I can tell may be linked to Earth

Riverrun connected to the rivers and water of the Riverlands.

Highgarden also possibly earth or plants, growth, not much is known yet.

Casterly Rock The Rock, huge stronghold, linked to gold and stone and wealth.

I guess some of this can be chalked up to a country with different regions, but I still think its slightly interesting, especially the legends to go along with the more notable ones.

[Alia of the knife]

Was just thinking about this while reading another topic. Not only are the Starks somewhat linked to different elements but so are many of the major houses of Westeros.

Winterfell Linked to Winter

combats Winter it with the natural springs. Built by Bran the Builder, possibly with help from Giants.

Storms End Linked to Storm Gods

Legends claim it was built by the first Storm King Durran, who declared war against the gods after they killed his guests and family at his wedding to Elenei. He created six castles each larger and stronger than the last until he created Storms End as it is now. It is said he had help from the children of the forrest for magic to resist storms. Some also believe Bran the Builder had a hand it its construction.

The Eyrie Linked to Air and Sky

Artys Arryn drove the First Men from the Vale and ascended to the Eyrie on the back of a great falcon and slew the Griffin King

Dragonstone Linked to Fire

Built over rivers of fire, and constructed with magic of old Valaryia, the house of dragons and dragon fire.

These become less convincing but...I guess they are lesser houses to an extent.

Pyke Linked to the Sea and Drowned God

Based on Islands in the water

Dorne/Sunspear As far I can tell may be linked to Earth

Riverrun connected to the rivers and water of the Riverlands.

Highgarden also possibly earth or plants, growth, not much is known yet.

Casterly Rock The Rock, huge stronghold, linked to gold and stone and wealth.

I guess some of this can be chalked up to a country with different regions, but I still think its slightly interesting, especially the legends to go along with the more notable ones.

That is awesome. :bowdown:

[Alia of the knife]

What are the implications of a man like Jon, who could be both warg, blood of the Dragon, AND have the blood of The Others, going back to the NIght King?

[redriver]

Been away for a few days,and I've come back to some very impressive posts and ideas.I like greensleeves finds from the Sansa chapters,especially her bringing winter down the mountain with her,Evita is quite right!

And I agree with Greenfyre that it seems unlikely that Sansa will end up Lady of Winterfell in the political context of the story,but the foreshadowing seems so strong!Perhaps she will "mastermind" the return of a Stark to WF,presumably slaying this giant in the process.But given the innocent mistakes she made in AGOT,I wouldn't be surprised if Martin balances that by making her Queen of Winter somehow.

Some excellent ideas from Beric the elemental associations with the great houses.(That little bit about the builder of Storms End being told how to do it by a small boy always intrigues me).

Alia,some tend to dismiss Jon's Targ blood as irrelevant but I don't.I'm developing some notions on where that's going,but they're at the still speculative stage.What are your thoughts? :cheers:

The case seems to be getting stronger...

[Profion]

Been away for a few days,and I've come back to some very impressive posts and ideas.I like greensleeves finds from the Sansa chapters,especially her bringing winter down the mountain with her,Evita is quite right!

And I agree with Greenfyre that it seems unlikely that Sansa will end up Lady of Winterfell in the political context of the story,but the foreshadowing seems so strong!Perhaps she will "mastermind" the return of a Stark to WF,presumably slaying this giant in the process.But given the innocent mistakes she made in AGOT,I wouldn't be surprised if Martin balances that by making her Queen of Winter somehow.

Some excellent ideas from Beric the elemental associations with the great houses.(That little bit about the builder of Storms End being told how to do it by a small boy always intrigues me).

Alia,some tend to dismiss Jon's Targ blood as irrelevant but I don't.I'm developing some notions on where that's going,but they're at the still speculative stage.What are your thoughts? :cheers:

The case seems to be getting stronger...

That part about the small boy (who some say that was Brandon the Builder as a kid) always intrigued me either, because, I mean... How the Hell a child could have such knowledge in both magic and construction? I mean, I don´t think anyone has it. My guess is the small boy was actualy a Child of the Forest. Perhaps with thousand years and magic knowledge.

[redriver]

That part about the small boy (who some say that was Brandon the Builder as a kid) always intrigued me either, because, I mean... How the Hell a child could have such knowledge in both magic and construction? I mean, I don´t think anyone has it. My guess is the small boy was actualy a Child of the Forest. Perhaps with thousand years and magic knowledge.

Agreed,it's the most likely explanation,though you'd imagine they could tell the difference between a COTF and a boy back then.There's also some odd notions that it was the current Bran doing some time warp stuff.Hope not,best leave that one a loose end!

[Laurelin Dena]

I'm playing the Facebookgame too. Yet I got another piece of the Wierbook. It tells about an amber tear, cried by the first wierwoodtree. And when the prophecy is happening, you will find the Amber Tear in the Wolfs Den in White Harbour.!! (sorry for my language, I'm not born englishspeaking)

[redriver]

I'd love to learn more about this Facebook game,but I fear I'd become obsessed and it would take over my life.History repeating,pattern recognition...

[LordStoneheart]

What are the implications of a man like Jon, who could be both warg, blood of the Dragon, AND have the blood of The Others, going back to the NIght King?

How is Jon related to the Night's King?

[KingJonTargaryen1]

How is Jon related to the Night's King?

The Night's King was a Stark.