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Darth Richard

The Bakker and Women Thread Returns

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Or maybe:

Bakker and Women: Revenge of the Consult?

Bakker and Women Rises?

Anyway, this is to suck the Bakker conversation out of the best series ever thread, before Wert goes insane and kills us all.

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Bakker, Women and a Bottomless Pit to Stick a Dick In, is what i'd go with.

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Is this about the female characters, Bakker himself hypothetically alienating female readers, or a combination of the two?

Also, if you gave us your analysis/opinion it would help - maybe things in the old Bakker and Women threads that you presumably searched through and found of interest?

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Do we really need this? Can't just everybody search for the old threads and pretend they're new?

But they don't have that great new thread smell!

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I made this thread, because of the constant thread-jacking going on in other threads, which resulted in aforementioned Wert telling people to take it to a separate thread. I figured people here would be smart enough to figure that out.

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Well Wert did ask at least twice for people to take the Bakker convo out of the other thread. Though it'd be good to have a quote and commentary to start the thread.

And theoretically it would be interesting to look at past complaints and see how they hold up now that we have Serwa as the head of the Swayali School, Mimara as a potential messiah, Nanny Pat, and Esmi as Empress.

I[t]'d be interesting if anyone who found the series lacking in women with agency found improvements in the second act.

Also, if any female reader actually decided not to read Bakker specifically because of his online shennanigans.

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Meh, discussing Bakker in threads meant for Bakker is boring. The only people who look at the threads are those who care about the argument. It's much more fun when people randomly stumble into a Bakker-is-sexist argument against their expectations. It's like exhibitionism or something.

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i reiterate my previous position that RSB enacted the womb plague on his audience by alienating all women readers and making his male readers crazy forever and addicted to atrocity. it is unique therefore in speculative fiction.

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Well, apparently I'm just a fucking bakker and can't do anything right for shit.

fixed that for ya. ;)

The key to getting this iteration of this thread right is to start from the proposition that Bakker is guilty (on a crime relating to women or a crime of your choice, no relation to women required). Then you work your way backwards to find out what crime he committed.

It is amazing how many crimes Bakker is guilty of when one is using this tried and true (and now patented!) Bakker-and-Women-thread© method.

None has ever sinned as much as he.

Truly, he is the Most Damned of All Men! Breaker of Threads and Forums!

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I for one want to thread jack this Bakker thread and instead talk about The Wire.

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I for one want to thread jack this Bakker thread and instead talk about The Wire.

Well, Simon does write women a lot more convincing than Bakker.

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Meh, discussing Bakker in threads meant for Bakker is boring. The only people who look at the threads are those who care about the argument. It's much more fun when people randomly stumble into a Bakker-is-sexist argument against their expectations. It's like exhibitionism or something.

So true . . . you'd think it would make them curious to read the series but apparently not.

Anyway, my position is that Bakker isn't particularly sexist in his writing but his female characters from the first trilogy were just terribly written and they had thankless roles to boot. He has improved measurably with the addition of Mimara and Serwa to the cast who are both very good but, in true Bakker fashion, he had already scared away all his female readers for that to make any difference.

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Mod:

I'm going to go ahead and make the call that it's ok to talk about Bakker. Embarrassing, perhaps, but kosher. This thread is at least temporarily in a state of grace and may continue to exist, for all your womanly, Bakkery needs. Whether people have the patience to deal with that is another question. It's also not off limits to talk about Bakker, when and if relevant in other threads, just not to the point of taking over the entire conversation and alienating the rare soul who does not, in fact, give two fucks about Bakker one way or another.

Carry on.

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I for one want to thread jack this Bakker thread and instead talk about The Wire.

i reiterate my previous position that RSB enacted the womb plague on his audience by alienating all women readers and making his male readers crazy forever and addicted to atrocity. it is unique therefore in speculative fiction.

Like.

I find Bakker fans and Bakker haters to be overly extreme in their opinions. Honestly, the idea that Bakker has written pure shit seems as absurd to me as the idea that he has written a true masterpiece.

I think Bakker fans end up doing him a disservice when they try to write off flaws, specifically his [in text] treatment of women, as distractions. Bakker himself digs his own hole by apparently being incapable of reaching out toward any middle ground without coming across as condescending.

I don't personally think he's sexist, and would be interested in hearing more about the "casual sexism" he displays, but I also recognize he's hardly some pure soul who was made the victim of identity politics.

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I believe I'm part of the middle ground, which is claimed to be such a minority. I think his books are plenty entertaining, that they have actually improved over time, and I am eagerly anticipating the one to come. That said, I'm not blind to his many faults and I find it somewhat bizarre the pedestal some of his readers have him on.

As for the question about sexism, I do find that a little overblown. I mean, yes, Esmenet ends up coming off as ridiculous but no more so than many a character in fantasy literature. And, like I stated above, Bakker has expanded the female cast in recent books with characters that don't spend all their time being raped and manipulated by all the men surrounding them.

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