The Bakker and Women Thread Returns

[Galactus]

I'm not sure TJE and such is that much of an improvement. I mean, I can kinda, sorta see the argument for why it might be, but in the end? Eh. Mind, depending on how things turn out I might be totally wrong, but it just seems like he's added a couple more flavours of his old shit.

[Faint]

I'm not sure TJE and such is that much of an improvement. I mean, I can kinda, sorta see the argument for why it might be, but in the end? Eh. Mind, depending on how things turn out I might be totally wrong, but it just seems like he's added a couple more flavours of his old shit.

Are you speaking as to his female characters or just his writing in general?

[Francis Buck]

I'd say I'm mostly straight down the middle with TSA. The world is one of my favorites in fantasy, and think there are a ton of awesome ideas there (Dunyain, Nonmen, the Consult, the No-God, etc.), but I definitely think it's severely lacking when it comes to characterization and pacing, and just general storytelling. I do think Bakker gets short-ended by some people due to a strong negative reaction to the series's flaws, but at the same time the idea that it's some unsung masterpiece is a little over-the-top. I definitely enjoy something like ASoIaF a lot more when it comes to the simple process of reading and enjoying the writing itself.

[Faint]

I'd say I'm mostly straight down the middle with TSA. The world is one of my favorites in fantasy, and think there are a ton of awesome ideas there (Dunyain, Nonmen, the Consult, the No-God, etc.), but I definitely think it's severely lacking when it comes to characterization and pacing, and just general storytelling. I do think Bakker gets short-ended by some people due to a strong negative reaction to the series's flaws, but at the same time the idea that it's some unsung masterpiece is a little over-the-top. I definitely enjoy something like ASoIaF a lot more when it comes to the simple process of reading and enjoying the writing itself.

Wouldn't you say the storytelling elements have improved in the second trilogy though? I mean, once he ditched Kellhus as the main character and created this kind of quest narrative with Achiaman and Mimara, I think that really did a lot to improve on all his excellent world-building with more substantial characterization. Even the secondary storyline with Sorweel had much to recommend it. Esmenet remains a mess of a character but I don't think the author ever realized how much he missed on that score. Still, I generally care what happens to Achiaman, Mimara and Sorweel, whereas with Kellhus in the original trilogy I wouldn't have cared at all if he simply died and disappeared from the narrative.

[Sci-2]

Can you go into a critique of Esmi?

[Francis Buck]

To be honest, I was less drawn into the fourth book than I was the first three. I still haven't read all of WLW, but that may in part be due to a general fatigue of the series. I decided to do a re-read before continuing with WLW, because a lot of it was getting hazy, but I ended up getting to TTT and then didn't finish it. Personally, the most interesting characters from the first trilogy were Kellhus, Cnaiur, and Conphas. I generally find Achamian somewhere between irritating and just kind of boring -- I don't find the character interesting at all, but the events surrounding him often are, so it makes up for it. I don't find Esmenet irritating, but I don't find her interesting either. That was really my biggest problem with the series though. Even though I loved all these different aspects of the world and such, and I was very much intrigued by the story at large, I just didn't really enjoy the page-by-page reading of it very much.

His prose certainly improved in the second trilogy, and I did like both Mimara and Sorweel, but neither grabbed me the way Kellhus, Cnaiur, or Conphas did. So it's kind of odd when the only characters I find genuinely interesting are all basically sociopaths (well, Kellhus isn't really a sociopath per se, but you get the idea). The lack of those kind of characters in TJE felt like a loss to me.

[Faint]

Can you go into a critique of Esmi?

I mean, the long and short of it is that she spends almost every single waking moment either being raped or manipulated by whatever man happens to be around her at the time, be that a child, a grown male, or an alien. Our only respite is when she wallows in shame and regret and contemplates her time as a whore. Then the author goes through the charade of building her up as something special, a great intellect; all I suppose to justify turning Achiaman into a cuckold and setting up the conflict between Achiaman and Kellhus, giving rise to Achiaman's current storyline. But, as it later turns out, there is never any evidence of this is special quality, that, of all coincidences, she out all women happens to possess. In other words, Esmenet is simply a narrative device to drive conflict between the two dominant males in the story and nothing more. There was never any deeper meaning to her character; she is a contrivance, and not a particularly interesting one at that.

[Darth Richard]

fixed that for ya. ;)

You lost me.

[Sci-2]

I'm not sure TJE and such is that much of an improvement. I mean, I can kinda, sorta see the argument for why it might be, but in the end?

Overall, or just depiction of women?

[Madness]

+1 for Threads, Darth. The difference is jaw-dropping... and it's mostly the same people :bang: ;), lmao.

I'm going to condense my new argument. PON: Premise. TAE: Premise. TSTSNBN: Conclusion.

Then try and Circumfix the guy.

And, Francis & anyone else who hasn't. Skip the fuck ahead and read The White-Luck Warrior. It's mostly Bakker's best, in my opinion.

[Sci-2]

I'm going to condense my new argument. PON: Premise. TAE: Premise. TSTSNBN: Conclusion.

I don't really see why you can't analyze the books as they are. Each book can succeed and fail individually, and really at this point we're examining five books.

[Darth Richard]

I'm probably the sole person in the world who liked TDTCB best out of all five novels so far. I think that's maybe it's because that one has the least ick factor of the five. Really, really liked TJE though. WLW....not so much.

I should probably go on the record as saying I DO enjoy the series as a whole.

I made this topic mainly to stop Wert from killing us all. :P

Madness: Your argument assumes that third series will even be written, let alone published.

[Faint]

It really is terrible how there might not be a third trilogy. I wish more people gave the series a try. It can still be quite entertaining while ignoring most of its esoteric nature and its problems with female characters.

Incidentally, for anybody who is knowledgeable on the subject, have sales of the series waned over time, was it never that popular to begin with, or a combination of the two? Is there some point when it all started going wrong and, if so, what was the cause?

[Sci-2]

As much as I'd like to see a conclusion, I actually think Bakker should start writing something else instead of the final trilogy. Something completely outside of Earwa, as this whole world is unlikely to generate any substantial monetary return.

Of course, he could write other books and short stories while working on his Earwa books. I actually think if he dropped the philosophical wanking he'd be a successful horror novelist.

[Though I'd lay off the brutalized women.]

=-=-=

eta:

Our only respite is when she wallows in shame and regret and contemplates her time as a whore. Then the author goes through the charade of building her up as something special, a great intellect; all I suppose to justify turning Achiaman into a cuckold and setting up the conflict between Achiaman and Kellhus, giving rise to Achiaman's current storyline.

This is actually a pretty good critique. One of the challenges I think Bakker faced was what would be like to have an actual patriarchy set in a scriptural world. This is a world where women largely by into patriarchal institutions.

So Serwa, Esmenet, their thoughts run along channels that are counter to our own modern intuitions. What Bakker was trying to do was to note that you can't always be pull yourself up by your bootstraps, and that in many situations it is impossible.

Now I'd say your criticism remains valid, and I think even with an understanding of what Bakker was trying to do there is still criticism of how the story has been written.

[Faint]

I'm only recently learning that the books are not all that successful, although I probably should not find that a surprise. It's because of how much they are discussed on this forum that I have always had a bad perspective on the matter. All that said, I really feel the series can't be completed properly without a substantial third part to it. It doesn't seem anywhere near conclusion.

[Shryke]

I mean, the long and short of it is that she spends almost every single waking moment either being raped or manipulated by whatever man happens to be around her at the time, be that a child, a grown male, or an alien. Our only respite is when she wallows in shame and regret and contemplates her time as a whore. Then the author goes through the charade of building her up as something special, a great intellect; all I suppose to justify turning Achiaman into a cuckold and setting up the conflict between Achiaman and Kellhus, giving rise to Achiaman's current storyline. But, as it later turns out, there is never any evidence of this is special quality, that, of all coincidences, she out all women happens to possess. In other words, Esmenet is simply a narrative device to drive conflict between the two dominant males in the story and nothing more. There was never any deeper meaning to her character; she is a contrivance, and not a particularly interesting one at that.

I think it's certainly true that Esmenet spends alot of PON being manipulated by others, but that's kinda the point. Her intellect does her no good because of her station in life and her sex. She goes far beyond just being a narrative device. I'm not really sure where you get your conclusion here from.

In PON, Serwe is kind of a mirror to this as her life is essentially the same as Esmenet's but she more or less accepts her lot in life.

[Faint]

Now I'd say your criticism remains valid, and I think even with an understanding of what Bakker was trying to do there is still criticism of how the story has been written.

I am curious to know the opinion of others on where Esmenet's story is going because despite the protestations I hear about the symbolic role she plays in the story and the great ideas the author intended to convey via her character, it is my opinion that the sum of her contribution to this point has been that of a mechanism to bring about the division between Achiaman and Kellhus, as well as giving Mimara someone to hate.

[Sci-2]

Oh I think she is a stagnant character so I agree with you.

[Darth Richard]

It really is terrible how there might not be a third trilogy. I wish more people gave the series a try. It can still be quite entertaining while ignoring most of its esoteric nature and its problems with female characters.

Incidentally, for anybody who is knowledgeable on the subject, have sales of the series waned over time, was it never that popular to begin with, or a combination of the two? Is there some point when it all started going wrong and, if so, what was the cause?

Well, personally, I had a friend who was so disgusted by the last scene in TWP he dropped the series entirely and started warning people off it. And he wasn't the type of person who is easly offended by dark or violent stuff, he's the one who turned me on to Glen Cook and Banks.

Also, I've mentioned this before, but I don't think you can just blatantly rec this series to someone based on the fact that they also like ASOIAF or dark fantasy in general. This stuff is DARK. As dark as it gets, as far as I've read.

Well, before things get so dark and porny they turn into Ann Bishop. Bleeech. That's another discussion though. Actually, no, it's not. Those books are just gross. :P

[Spring Bass]

To be honest, I don't even understand why we had so many Esmi POV chapters in the second trilogy. They and the rest of the chapters in the Three Seas just killed the flow of the story in the Great Ordeal and Akka/Mimara storylines, which was where the interesting action is at. It's like Bakker keeps bringing her back just to knock her down again.

This is all well-tread ground, though. I'd be okay with a blanket moratorium on Bakker discussions until we actually get some new stuff from Bakker, be it an Atrocity Tale, an excerpt from TUC, or news that TUC is done and getting ready to be published.

Sciborg"]Of course, he could write other books and short stories while working on his Earwa books. I actually think if he dropped the philosophical wanking he'd be a successful horror novelist.

[Though I'd lay off the brutalized women.]

Considering Stephen King, having the brutalized women might actually work to his advantage, if he could somehow avoid his constant tendency to intensely sexualize them regardless of genre (or his obsession with pop neuroscience).

I told him on his blog a while back that he ought to try his hand at writing a horror novel, since he's fantastic at writing viscerally horrifying scenes. Trying to write a thriller was dumb, particularly with his fondness for philosophical commentary and often ponderous pace.