[TWoW Spoilers] Barristan

[kraziness]

I think Little Pigeon's fate might parallel that of Littlefinger's. This is the description of LP from ADWD:

A little man with a big ego, sounds a bit like LF. This is how he dies according to Azador's report:

He trips over his bird armor, and dies for it. LF is planning on (supposedly) marrying Sansa, the little bird, off to some powerful man (Harry the Heir at the moment, but that could change) so that he can secure his own position. I suppose you could say she is kind of like his armor.

He gets killed by a lamb. and LF says this in ACOK:

The Red Lamb who kills LP is not interested in gold, only blood. I'm struggling to connect him to anyone. Here is the only description of him from ADWD:

the one the other boys called Red Lamb, though as yet that one was all ferocity and no technique.

Forgive me if this isn't news, but I wanted to make sure this has been addressed- isn't that quote above pretty much EXACTLY how Roose Bolton describes Ramsay's style (as learned from Reek)?

I'm not saying I buy the theory that this was all posed in, but I couldn't help but notice that.

Edited March 7, 2013 by kraziness

[greywindsrage]

Thanks A Lot! I've been dying for something. The anxiety is killing me.

[StoneToilet]

It might be just me, but why exactly are we discussing the strategy of the Ironborn and the Tyrells on the thread about Barristan's two new chapters? At least talk about something related to him, like the fate of Daenerys or the battle of Meereen or when Dany's whole army will board the ships, where will they land? Talking about the rest just seems off-topic.

Ya really, thread got high jacked. Thanks veltigar.

Seems to me like aegons getting embroiled in the game, while Dany is on a course to end it. Don't know if it will end up that way but that's how it seems to be shaping up.

If dany's side wins the battle the yunkish will be completely broken, right? Is that why we were given a survey of all their lords assembled outside of mereen, showing us all the slaver eggs in their basket?

If the battle is decisive, and goes her way, I can see Dany managing to pull herself away, I just don't know how she will get to westeros. Has anyone estimated how many ships she will need? I wouldn't think the ironborn would have enough to transport her with her unsullied and freedmen and sellsword companies, even if they were somehow dispossessed of them.

I'm also wondering what essos' role in the larger story (the ice and fire part) is, that role likely having some bearing on what happens with Dany.

She has overturned the established order, and if she wins and ends the slave trade in slavers bay it will have ripple effects throughout essos. Maybe it works out to her advantage as a hero of the new world order or something. Could give her one more tool in whatever part she's going to play. Or she winds up having caused havoc and leaving essos weakened and chaotic.

[Veltigar]

Ya really, thread got high jacked. Thanks veltigar.

You're welcome :cool4:

If dany's side wins the battle the yunkish will be completely broken, right? Is that why we were given a survey of all their lords assembled outside of mereen, showing us all the slaver eggs in their basket?

Yep, the only enemy left are the giant Volantine fleet and the sons of the harpy

If the battle is decisive, and goes her way, I can see Dany managing to pull herself away, I just don't know how she will get to westeros. Has anyone estimated how many ships she will need? I wouldn't think the ironborn would have enough to transport her with her unsullied and freedmen and sellsword companies, even if they were somehow dispossessed of them.

Large Volantine warfleet manned by slaves who believe she's AA coming their way... Between those ships and the ships of the Ironborn she shouldn't have a problem to transport her people

[DExit]

Large Volantine warfleet manned by slaves who believe she's AA coming their way... Between those ships and the ships of the Ironborn she shouldn't have a problem to transport her people

The slaves are rowing the ships, but I assume there are fighters on board who arn't slaves- this far east and in Dany's storyline I'm never entirely sure btw.

Again assuming the slaves doing the hard work of rowing the galleys. the amount of food she would need to carry her army, possibly a Khalshar, and the slaves to westeros is immense, this seems a problem to me.

[Veltigar]

The slaves are rowing the ships, but I assume there are fighters on board who arn't slaves- this far east and in Dany's storyline I'm never entirely sure btw.

Again assuming the slaves doing the hard work of rowing the galleys. the amount of food she would need to carry her army, possibly a Khalshar, and the slaves to westeros is immense, this seems a problem to me.

The fighters are also slaves http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Tiger_Cloaks

[StoneToilet]

Ya I assumed all the references to slaves outnumbering non slaves 10-1 meant that we should disregard volantis as a threat, but even if the whole fleet mutinies will they be free to help Dany? As in, will the ships and/or crews be available to her? It's one thing to dispatch a few ships out of a large fleet to get the golden company out of your hair, another thing to just give a third of your fleet away. I could be remembering wrong, but I thought it was said that volantis had 1000 ships and was sending 300 to slavers bay

[Sapphire]

At this rate we'll have to read a quarter into WoW to reach new material lol. Not that I'm complaining. I love me some Barristan! Can't wait for the three way collision course we're headed for.

[DExit]

The fighters are also slaves http://awoiaf.wester...hp/Tiger_Cloaks

In that case it will be alot more simple for the slaves to go over to Dany. My main question is, how does Volantis excist if workers and fighters are slaves? The only known comparrison to men in history, where there were as many slaves as in essos, is the Roman Empire, but they always had free Romans in the army to do the fighting and supressing slave-revolts.

[Lebronn Jaime]

In that case it will be alot more simple for the slaves to go over to Dany. My main question is, how does Volantis excist if workers and fighters are slaves? The only known comparrison to men in history, where there were as many slaves as in essos, is the Roman Empire, but they always had free Romans in the army to do the fighting and supressing slave-revolts.

The Ottoman Empire had issues with large slave soldier classes. Look up the Mamluks and Janissaries.

[DExit]

The Ottoman Empire had issues with large slave soldier classes. Look up the Mamluks and Janissaries.

Actually remeber mamluks from when they started fighting in the last part of christian/crusader activity in the holy lands, I'll certainly look after them, but I'm also sure that the Ottomans had regular forces apart from slaves, I think mamluks and janissars were elites or something? The mix in volantis is more likely to have a succesfull explosion.

[StoneToilet]

In some ways I think soldiers are easier to keep a hold on than other slaves. They're regimented and quartered in barracks and kept under the thumbs of commanders.

Didn't parts of the American south have slave populations that outnumbered whites?

I think of tyrions thoughts on how easy it is to accept bondage, the fear that others won't join you if you rise up, geographic isolation from potential sympathizers, and fear of starvation.

[armidil0]

Actually remeber mamluks from when they started fighting in the last part of christian/crusader activity in the holy lands, I'll certainly look after them, but I'm also sure that the Ottomans had regular forces apart from slaves, I think mamluks and janissars were elites or something? The mix in volantis is more likely to have a succesfull explosion.

The Unsullied were slaves. They were the best fighting force in the known world, and they never revolted. Even though they probably could have successfully.

[DExit]

It's probably also that all the officers are free men, there are no slaves of high standing, so there are no slaves the other slaves could look up to and accept commands from.

I thought of it, and being a soldier-slave or a pit fighter, the men would have high standards of honor, they are probably proud of what they do and who they are, when there are not so much free men, there is probably a hyrarchy among slaves, and fighters would be the number one in that case.

Having thus proven myself wrong about the whole "slave fighters, could that even work " thing. I'm coming to wonder, are the ones at the top of the slave piramide going to give up their top postition of something? Probably for the fighters living standards are higher than of those who are rowing the ships and doing dirty work in volantis, who is to say that the living conditions of the fighters are going to improve when they are free men?

[King Zee]

In the context of the Ottomans slavery means that people were owned not neceassarily that they were oppressed. there would be a definite hierarchy of slaves. Under Sultan Suleiman I his favorite wife was a slave, his Prime Minister was a slave, the elites of the bureaucracy and the military were slaves.

at the other end you have galley slaves.

Edited March 8, 2013 by King Zee

[Veltigar]

It's probably also that all the officers are free men, there are no slaves of high standing, so there are no slaves the other slaves could look up to and accept commands from.

I thought of it, and being a soldier-slave or a pit fighter, the men would have high standards of honor, they are probably proud of what they do and who they are, when there are not so much free men, there is probably a hyrarchy among slaves, and fighters would be the number one in that case.

Having thus proven myself wrong about the whole "slave fighters, could that even work " thing. I'm coming to wonder, are the ones at the top of the slave piramide going to give up their top postition of something? Probably for the fighters living standards are higher than of those who are rowing the ships and doing dirty work in volantis, who is to say that the living conditions of the fighters are going to improve when they are free men?

They are going to give up this position of relatvie comfort for religion. Almost every tigercloak follows the Red God (that's why the Triarchs wanted to hire the GC to attack the temple instead of making the tigercloaks attack their own religion) and as seen from the Volantine scenes, they are all quite fanatical in this. For them Daenerys will be AA, the saviour reborn, why on earth would they want to fight her.

Another pro for giving up comfort is the Dragons. You can't enjoy higher rank when your dead. And by the way, as free men things could get even beter for them, besides fighting along side of AA gives them a-get-into-heaven-for-free-card... Don't think they'll pass on that. Also think about the fact that the Unsullied had the same choise, take revenge on those awfule slavers and be free or remaining in chains. These elite fighters chose for freedom.

Personally, I think that when they see the Dragons and the queen most of them will turn to her and they'll probably fight the loyal tigercloaks. After that Dany will merge them with her own army and attack Volantis.

[George W. Lannister]

Sweet reading! Barristan slicing through douche bags is going to be a beauty.

Speaking of slicing -- I really hope that we get to see another Victarion chapter in which he's slaying on a massive scale. I just re-read the Shield Islands chapter from aFfC where he kills between 6-11 guys in only three pages, and throws the young noble guy into the water. I want to see a doubling or tripling of that, similar to the Japanese fight scene in Kill Bill 1.

[Mulled Wino]

Unless they pull back to better guard their own lands, or skip it to go directly to KL and better defense Marg or to intimidate and look more powerful.

After all, it's just one sellsword company, right? They can wait. :cool4:

Cant really do either though. Leave highgarden or KL undefended?

Actually, sounds like a Mace Tyrell plan to me!!!

[Khal Rhaggat - Cart King]

Thanks so much!!

[Ame]

One concern is the galley; rowing takes a lot of energy so you need a large store of food and water; which limits how many people could be transported by galleys. Will a galley fleet really be enough to transport Dany and her followers? If not Ironborn have always taken what they wanted; but are the right types of ships locally available after the battle?