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Makes you think that basically GRRM had already mostly written out the Meereen battle prior to publishing ADWD. That's probably why he's reading these chapters this "early". I'm actually concerned this means nothing in terms of how quickly he will be able to finish all of TWOW and get it published...

How many pages do you think the battles of Meereen and Winterfell will take up? Winterfell should probably take less since we only have 2 POV chapters there, and Meereen has Tyrion, Barry, Vic, and probably Dany (if she arrives soon enough).

That's probably 100+ pages there.

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While the way the chapter ended outside Victarion's chapter was unusual, Victarion has continued as a POV. I don't think your interpretation/theory is correct.

It doesn't matter that he has continued as a POV. He isn't aware himself that he is UnVic. Two things- In the House of the Undying Dany sees "A corpse stood at the prow of a ship, eyes bright in his dead face, grey lips smiling sadly". Greyjoy...a grey smile. But the dead face.....I think I am correct.

Next- aside from Dany's chapter when she steps into fire, it is the only time in all the books when the POV narrative actually detaches from the character. It actually left the room he was in.

So Vic will be puppeted by Moqorro, but in the end, I sort of agree with people who are saying he is a vehicle for the horn. Or perhaps simply the supplier of many ships for Dany and he rides for a while. We'll have to wait and see. And she will probably sail East past (bummer scrapped 5 yr gap) Asshai and land on the Stoney Shore or CAsterly Rock, or something like that. "to go West you must go East" you know.

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How many pages do you think the battles of Meereen and Winterfell will take up? Winterfell should probably take less since we only have 2 POV chapters there, and Meereen has Tyrion, Barry, Vic, and probably Dany (if she arrives soon enough).

That's probably 100+ pages there.

I hope it's not that much. While the battle certainly does seem interesting and will certainly set things in motion, I can't imagine, if that one battle takes up that much time, that two more books will be sufficient.

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How many pages do you think the battles of Meereen and Winterfell will take up? Winterfell should probably take less since we only have 2 POV chapters there, and Meereen has Tyrion, Barry, Vic, and probably Dany (if she arrives soon enough).

That's probably 100+ pages there.

I may be out to lunch, but it seems everyone's assuming the "battle in the ice" GRRM is referring to is WF, Stannis vs. Boltons. What if that's only the prelude, and the Jon stabbing is part of the bigger battle about to unfold - NW vs. Wildlings vs. Queen's men, possible throwing in the Others too!

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For one mind-numbing moment, I read that last sentence in the OP as Barristan wondering about his son with the Starks, and I was all like: B+L=J?!?

Very exciting stuff, though. Thanks for this.

Edited by Techelles

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It doesn't matter that he has continued as a POV. He isn't aware himself that he is UnVic. Two things- In the House of the Undying Dany sees "A corpse stood at the prow of a ship, eyes bright in his dead face, grey lips smiling sadly". Greyjoy...a grey smile. But the dead face.....I think I am correct.

Next- aside from Dany's chapter when she steps into fire, it is the only time in all the books when the POV narrative actually detaches from the character. It actually left the room he was in.

So Vic will be puppeted by Moqorro, but in the end, I sort of agree with people who are saying he is a vehicle for the horn. Or perhaps simply the supplier of many ships for Dany and he rides for a while. We'll have to wait and see. And she will probably sail East past (bummer scrapped 5 yr gap) Asshai and land on the Stoney Shore or CAsterly Rock, or something like that. "to go West you must go East" you know.

I think this is likely to be Wights/Others sailing the Night Watch's ships back from Hardhome, bypassing the wall.

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I'm all for Merreen getting burned to the ground. There IS no better time. Dany is away with one dragon, probably recruiting a new Dothraki army. If she comes back to find Merreen utterly destroyed and her other two dragons taken? And a fleet of ships with something resembling an army at her disposal? Then she pretty much HAS to get the f*ck out of Dodge and head for Westeros. I think we all agree that storyline needs to end NOW. Dany really should be making a dramatic entrance on the shores of Westeros by the end of TWOW so she has the whole final book to get her story done. That means, bam!, out of Merreen after the battle.

If Vic blows the horn this helps that along. Why else introduce the horn to the story? Why prophecize Dany seeing a corpse at the bow of a ship? Why even bring the boats if she isn't going to use them? Seems to me what you guys are piecing together in on the right path; Vic will die and Dany will seize his ships. That's all they were ever good for anyway. Selmy will probably die as well, but I wouldn't bet the rent on it just because it looks so obvious. As for Merreen's destruction, why is it so against the character's path? If she's gone when it happens she's absolved of any blame and the whole thing is taken out of her hands. If she comes back and there's nothing to rule she can say, "you know what? This is an omen I need to get back to my real purpose, reclaiming the iron throne". And if her dragons are missing and someone tells her they are being taken to KL or somewhere in Westeros? Instant course correction for Dany.

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It doesn't matter that he has continued as a POV. He isn't aware himself that he is UnVic. Two things- In the House of the Undying Dany sees "A corpse stood at the prow of a ship, eyes bright in his dead face, grey lips smiling sadly". Greyjoy...a grey smile. But the dead face.....I think I am correct.

Next- aside from Dany's chapter when she steps into fire, it is the only time in all the books when the POV narrative actually detaches from the character. It actually left the room he was in.

So Vic will be puppeted by Moqorro, but in the end, I sort of agree with people who are saying he is a vehicle for the horn. Or perhaps simply the supplier of many ships for Dany and he rides for a while. We'll have to wait and see. And she will probably sail East past (bummer scrapped 5 yr gap) Asshai and land on the Stoney Shore or CAsterly Rock, or something like that. "to go West you must go East" you know.

Wow I never thought about that; the POV detaching from the character in that chapter. I remember reading it and did notice something off about the way he wrote about screams coming from the cabin but for some reason I didn't register what was going on with the change in narrative style. Thanks for pointing that out for me. I think it's definitely food for thought and I do kinda think Vic is somewhat zombified now

EDIT - by screams I meant maniacal laughter

Edited by Marmelodov

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I enjoyed reading about this, but do wonder if Martin is starting to give away too much.

i wouldnt mind if GRR|M decided to release all the WOW chapters before publishing :cool4:

The more we get, the better

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"to go West you must go East" you know.

Could this not refer to Dany having to use Vic's ships because he is from the east?

Also why can't Dany defeat the Khal with her dragon and show up to Meeren with an army of dothraki screamers, they only follow the strong which she would be. That why she would also be going back to go forwards as she is returning to the Dothraki

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It doesn't matter that he has continued as a POV. He isn't aware himself that he is UnVic. Two things- In the House of the Undying Dany sees "A corpse stood at the prow of a ship, eyes bright in his dead face, grey lips smiling sadly". Greyjoy...a grey smile. But the dead face.....I think I am correct.

I always thought this was Jon Connington and the grey lips / corpse thing was a reference to greyscale.

OP- thanks so much for your notes on GRRM's reading

Edited by mushroomshirt

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I always thought this was Jon Connington and the grey lips / corpse thing was a reference to greyscale.

OP- thanks so much for your notes on GRRM's reading

That's interesting, too. I suppose I can't entirely rule out Jon Cnnington. But there are also a few allusions to a kraken of 10 arms, or "black tentacles" and the like. Black being the color of death, the 10 arms being a squid of course.

Also- check out page 752 of DANCE. Vic: "Where? When? Will I die in battle?"

Moqorro says to Vic, "Your death is with us now, my lord" (very Maggy the Frog if you ask me!) And he only promises Vic that he will get his hand back. Not that he will save his life.....

Moqorro also says, "I have seen you in my nightmares, Vic. You come striding thru the flames stern and fierce, your great axe dripping blood, BLIND TO THE TENTACLES THAT GRASP YOUR WRIST NECK AND ANKLE, THE BLACK STRINGS THAT MAKE YOU DANCE."

To me that sounds like "striding thru the flames" is every zombie created in the series (uncat and Beric), but the black tentacles are too odd to simply call out he is a kraken. Sigils don't really control the characters. But a puppeteer controls characters. Like Moqorro who zombified Victarion and is now controlling him. And Vic is "blind to the tentacles." He even himself doesn't seem too concerned about his crazy terminator hand he has all of a sudden. And he is suddenly a bad ass unchained like out of nowhere- like he had a shot of B12 to his balls. "Stern and Fierce"

And again, if anyone doubts it, why have the POV leave Vic's view? "the iron captain was not seen again that day". That alone makes it evident for me. GRRM doesn't make literary mistakes like that. That was purposeful.

So, I stand by my theory- Undead Vic and he isn't even aware of it yet. And when he does become aware, that's when we will see him dropped from a POV. Or when Moqorro is done with him. Whichever comes first.

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I'm all for Merreen getting burned to the ground. There IS no better time. Dany is away with one dragon, probably recruiting a new Dothraki army. If she comes back to find Merreen utterly destroyed and her other two dragons taken? And a fleet of ships with something resembling an army at her disposal? Then she pretty much HAS to get the f*ck out of Dodge and head for Westeros. I think we all agree that storyline needs to end NOW. Dany really should be making a dramatic entrance on the shores of Westeros by the end of TWOW so she has the whole final book to get her story done. That means, bam!, out of Merreen after the battle.

LOL This is so true.

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Surely you mean unvic

"What is dead may never die, but rises again, harder and stronger."

I don't think Vic will die in this book, even though it "fits" that his story ends here (bringing the horn to Daenerys). But Daenerys isn't in Mereen.

Victarion will push through the lines of both the attackers and the defenders.

"We do not sow"

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I don't think Victarion will die until he sees Euron again. George has built the storyline of these two characters with vengeance and betrayal of one another, it would seem odd if their last meeting was in AFFC.

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I don't think Victarion will die until he sees Euron again. George has built the storyline of these two characters with vengeance and betrayal of one another, it would seem odd if their last meeting was in AFFC.

Perhaps this is why the dusky woman is really with Victarion, perhaps Euron is using her in some way.

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There are many theories on the Dusky Woman and Moqorro. None of it is fact yet, but the facts we do know are Euron is extremely cunning and insane and Victarion is extremely stupid when it comes to everything besides reaving.

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