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Also- check out page 752 of DANCE. Vic: "Where? When? Will I die in battle?"

Moqorro says to Vic, "Your death is with us now, my lord" (very Maggy the Frog if you ask me!) And he only promises Vic that he will get his hand back. Not that he will save his life.....

Moqorro also says, "I have seen you in my nightmares, Vic. You come striding thru the flames stern and fierce, your great axe dripping blood, BLIND TO THE TENTACLES THAT GRASP YOUR WRIST NECK AND ANKLE, THE BLACK STRINGS THAT MAKE YOU DANCE."

I always thought the black tentacles were a reference to Crow's Eye and that Euron was controlling Vic like a marionette.

The smiling sadly part from the HoD prophecy doesn't really seem to fit Vic. He's not much for sad smiles, I think. He's more a man of action.

You certainly could be right considering the points you bring up about the Vic's POV leaving him. I'm just sharing what I thought when I read the books. Next time I read I will challenge my assumptions a little bit to see if the dead man on the prow of the ship fits better with Vic.

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Does everyone assume that the HotU prophecies are all still entirely relevant? I mean, they were written about in CoK and before Martin ever had any trouble with the five year gap or the Meereenese knot. They easily could not come to pass because "hey, not all prophecies do" if Martin realized things just couldn't work that way.

Edited by Lord Godric

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I think Little Pigeon's fate might parallel that of Littlefinger's. This is the description of LP from ADWD:

A little man with a big ego, sounds a bit like LF. This is how he dies according to Azador's report:

He trips over his bird armor, and dies for it. LF is planning on (supposedly) marrying Sansa, the little bird, off to some powerful man (Harry the Heir at the moment, but that could change) so that he can secure his own position. I suppose you could say she is kind of like his armor.

He gets killed by a lamb. and LF says this in ACOK:

The Red Lamb who kills LP is not interested in gold, only blood. I'm struggling to connect him to anyone. Here is the only description of him from ADWD:

I'm thinking maybe the Hound....but the Hound was interested in gold at one point, so it's not a perfect connection. If someone can think of a better fit, please do.

Ser Lyn Corbray

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Hello,

This is my first post on this forum ; I'm a contributor to the French wilki "La Garde de Nuit", twin of AWOIAF (so please pardon my French :unsure: ).

We would like to put a French translation of Azador's notes about the two Barristan chapters in our wiki (under CC-BY-SA) with his permission (Azador's, not Barristan's).

I've tried to ask him directly by MP, but I didn't find how to contact him on his profile (I'm not only French, but also a noob :rolleyes:).

So if he reads these lines, it would be kind of him to answer, either on this topic or by MP.

Thanks.

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Heh, my guess is poor old Barristan gets skewered by the Ironborn but we'll have to wait and see.

I would guess that Barristan will end up happily dying saving Dany since he seems to regret taking Robert's pardon and not giving his life for Aerys like a good little Kingsguard would. I have a feeling he'll run into Jamie somehow before this is all over though...

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The fact that GRRM is frontloading TWOW with both the Battle of Ice and the Battle of Fire, it really has me wondering what the rest of the book is going to entail.

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Victarion is already dead. He died in his cabin and Moqorro turned him into a UnVic (like the Uncat or BEric Dondarrion). So I think Victarion will hang around for a bit but I doubt he lasts too much longer. Perhaps Dany will be killed and Vic will use his fire to revive her as Beric did Cat? But I don't think he will be a long running character. He is on his way out.

Now that I think about it, GRRM has a thing with hands getting injured or going bad somehow. Cold Hands, Jaime, Vic, Jon Snow's burn....

Anyway, I know the dessert battle will be sweet, the Winterfell battle will be intense, but I hope the rest of the novel isn't just 800 pages of characters poking around and lamenting about sins or reflecting on life. Let's move the plot along. Maybe just a little.

...wish I had read that before I posted, lol

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I always thought the black tentacles were a reference to Crow's Eye and that Euron was controlling Vic like a marionette.

The smiling sadly part from the HoD prophecy doesn't really seem to fit Vic. He's not much for sad smiles, I think. He's more a man of action.

You certainly could be right considering the points you bring up about the Vic's POV leaving him. I'm just sharing what I thought when I read the books. Next time I read I will challenge my assumptions a little bit to see if the dead man on the prow of the ship fits better with Vic.

I think this may be a literal reference, supposedly there are actual krakens pulling ships under. maybe one is going to break Vic's ship and drown him. in the new Arianne chapter there is a mention of kraken's pulling ships under. it would be poetic justice if the ironborn were set upon by some sea monsters.

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Does everyone assume that the HotU prophecies are all still entirely relevant? I mean, they were written about in CoK and before Martin ever had any trouble with the five year gap or the Meereenese knot. They easily could not come to pass because "hey, not all prophecies do" if Martin realized things just couldn't work that way.

I would agree that the prophecies are supposed to be treacherous, and thus misleading or tricksy. But I doubt an author of MArtin's caliber is going to simply "scrap" all the prophecies laid down there simply because the gap didn't work exactly right. For example- I think the undying prophecizes Victarion, but Quaithe warns her in DANCE not to trust the "Kraken and Dark Flame". Or the Undying predicts a lion in grass as tall as a man- which I take as meaning the lion is as tall as a man (Tyrion is big inside). THere are numerous references to that in the whole series. And we have to remember he did have the meat of the story planned from the beginning- so he knows where Dany, Tyrion, Jon, and Arya are ending up. Maybe a few others, since he has never hinted at who he believes are the "main characters". In that case, I would wager everything happening to Dany is close to the original plan.

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The fact that GRRM is frontloading TWOW with both the Battle of Ice and the Battle of Fire, it really has me wondering what the rest of the book is going to entail.

The battle of the vapors I assume.

Edited by Marmelodov

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The fact that GRRM is frontloading TWOW with both the Battle of Ice and the Battle of Fire, it really has me wondering what the rest of the book is going to entail.

Those were intended to be the climax of ADwD, so he didn't intend to lead TWoW with them. I would hope that means there is plenty of other events that were intended for the next book. He is past the restructuring from removing the 5 year gap and "Mereenese knot" issues, so hopefully things will be more on track with his intended direction from here.

http://sf-fantasy.suvudu.com/2011/07/dance-interview-with-george-r-r-martin-editor-anne-groell.html

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Nice observation. "grey lips smiling sadly" always screamed "Greyjoy", but combine this with Moqorro giving him the fiery hand and the suggestion that Victarion is now something akin to Melisandre or Beric is there. Considering the condition Jon was in at the end of ADWD, and the proximity of Melisandre, he might undergo a similar process in TWOW (it would be handy to have his own internal heating source anyway, considering the circumstances at and around the Wall).

The "black tentacles" Moqorro was talking about may be Euron's rather than Moqorro's, though.

---agree

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I wonder.. Do you think the "mount" she must ride "to bed" refers to Victarion? He seeks to marry Dany, and he has a horn that controls her dragons. She might have to get close to him (i.e. marry him) and let him bed her in order to steal that dragon horn and escape. The mount, by the way, is Drogon. She will be riding the dragon, but the dragon will be flying to Victarion. Hizdhar, by this point, of course is dead. Victarion will see to that, I'm sure.

I believe her mounts are her actual mounts - she rides her silver to bed (with Drogo) and then she's now on Drogon to dread (the meeting with Khal Jhaqo?) and then to love is...? But we will see! (As far as bed/dread/love with actual people, Dany loved Drogo, he was her sun and stars, so he was more than just a bedmate to her...maybe that means she's already had her "love" part of the prophecy?)

I'm wondering about that "tall and twisted thing with one black eye and ten long arms sailing on a sea of blood" that was supposed to be the biggest threat to Dany in one of the prophecies. That sounds just like Euron to me. I think he might have set Vic up - possibly with a fake dragon's horn? - and is going to swoop in, possibly with the real dragon's horn, at a crucial point. I'm sure Euron knows how to play Vic like a fiddle, or like a kraken's tentacles. He knows Vic hates him and he knows Vic would want to get back at him and would be Captain Obvious about it. I don't see it ending well.

GRRM has said himself that Vic is "Dumb as a stump" so I wonder if he's going to meet a Quentyn-ish fate trying to tame a dragon. Euron, OTOH, just might have brushed up on his Dragon Taming 101, and he's hung out with enough interesting people (or so he says) and quaffed enough hallucinogens to pose some kind of threat.

What I'm wondering as far as all this tying in with Barristan and Co. is if they will be able to use the Iron Fleet to go back to Westeros. If they can get the ironborn on their side, or gain control over them, the ships are right there...but they'd be advised to have at least a few ironmen around because they are the ones who know how to actually sail them.

Edited by KittensRuleBeetsDrool

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What I'm wondering as far as all this tying in with Barristan and Co. is if they will be able to use the Iron Fleet to go back to Westeros. If they can get the ironborn on their side, or gain control over them, the ships are right there...but they'd be advised to have at least a few ironmen around because they are the ones who know how to actually sail them.

My prediction is that they may use what's left of the Iron Fleet to get back to Westeros, but there just seems to be no way Dany can get her entire host as it currently stands to Westeros by boat. Besides, so she's going to show up there with a host of completely foreign looking invaders? How is that going to help her win over allies and small folk? Then even assuming she "wins" the IT, what does she then do with her host? Keep the unsullied around KL? Send everyone else back home after they get a chance to rape and plunder?

My guess is that GRRM has thought through these issues already. I think something will happen either leading much of her host to die in battle, or for Dany to decide to return to Westeros with a much smaller contingent. Or perhaps the big "red herring" is that she'll never make it back to Westeros after all...

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The funniest part I see is the fact that Barristan doesn't know that Tywin, Joffrey, the Starks etc. are dead.

Which means that if Tyrion gets a chance to talk to Barristian it will be a pretty interesting conversation.

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The funniest part I see is the fact that Barristan doesn't know that Tywin, Joffrey, the Starks etc. are dead.

Which means that if Tyrion gets a chance to talk to Barristian it will be a pretty interesting conversation.

My prediction is that unfortunately, Barristan will never get to have that conversation with Tyrion. Unless the entire new Barristan chapter is full of red herrings, I got the feeling the battle won't end well for him.

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My prediction is that unfortunately, Barristan will never get to have that conversation with Tyrion. Unless the entire new Barristan chapter is full of red herrings, I got the feeling the battle won't end well for him.

That doesn't mean he'll be dead. Likely he'll be on the losing side, or he gets captured again.

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First of all, I love this forum. Been reading your theories for a while now and decided, I should start participating a little, although I don't have any revolutionary crackpot-theories (yet). ;) And excuse my English. I think, I'm doing fine, but it still is just a second language.

In my opinion, it's pretty clear that Barristan won't survive the battle of Meeren. As far as we know from this (part-)chapter, everything seems to be going really well. And that's exactly when things start to go really bad for GRRM-Characters. As much as I'd love to see Ser Grandfather surviving this, i just don't believe it. Moreover, i think that Victarion will disappear as a POV. Euron is playing him somehow, we can take that for granted. What interests me the most, is what's gonna happen to Tyrion. I just have no idea, how his storyline is going to develop. But he's eventually gonna end up with Dany, since Quaithe warned her about the Lion. Anyways, so looking forward to the battle of Meeren with Dragons, Unsullied, Ironborn, Slavers, Dothraki, a fleet of sellswords from Volantis and lots of other sick shit going on. Maybe reading through all that boring Meeren stuff was worth it after all. :)

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