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I don't think you have to be a Targaryen to ride a dragon. After all, the Targaryens were not the only family in Valyria. Heck, given the evidence we have it appears the Targaryens were either not very well respected or even exiled from Valyria. If there is a bloodline requirement to ride a dragon, i think one would simply need to be of Valyrian descent. I doubt legitimacy would matter either, since that doesn't change the blood. Also a greenseer/warg might be able to overcome not having Valyrian blood and still bond with/ride a dragon.

I think Dany is being set up to be an antagonist to Westeros. The dragons are here weapons and will be pretty monstrous. They are an embodiment of magic and magic is a "hiltless sword". They bring chaos and ultimately can't be completely controlled, as seen already with Drogon eating the children from that village. Dany's only answer was to take him and fly off into the wilderness away from people. That's not really possible in Westeros.

That being said, I think I remember reading somewhere that GRRM said that the literal Dragons were added as an afterthought. Am I completely off base on this? If this is true, I can't see them being the ultimate super weapon, the key to defeating the WW/others, lightbringer, etc. While GRRM could certainly have altered the story to give the dragons a bigger significance, i just can't help but view them as a huge red herring.

No I disagree, Dany has been set up to be the savior not the other way around. All good things come from Dany, ASOIAF is based off of his first short story called 'Blood of the Dragon', which is just dany's POv's from GOT. These stories are about Dany and her family. She is the good guy all the way.

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No I disagree, Dany has been set up to be the savior not the other way around. All good things come from Dany, ASOIAF is based off of his first short story called 'Blood of the Dragon', which is just dany's POv's from GOT. These stories are about Dany and her family. She is the good guy all the way.

Brace yourself for the storm of Dany hate sure to come your way! I am a Dany fan, but I do think other characters do some good things as well.

And I am pretty sure GRRM has said that the story came from the first actual chapter--Bran riding out to see the deserter beheaded. Everything grew from that.

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Brace yourself for the storm of Dany hate sure to come your way! I am a Dany fan, but I do think other characters do some good things as well.

And I am pretty sure GRRM has said that the story came from the first actual chapter--Bran riding out to see the deserter beheaded. Everything grew from that.

Sorry, but I could care less about the dany-haters, they make no sense to me and I don't hear them.

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Blood_of_the_Dragon

Blood of the dragon came out a month before GOT. And anyway i know I'm right about Dany being the Protagonist, so ppl can say whatever they want and I'll still know I'm right about that subject at least through all these books I am sure about Dany.

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Sorry, but I could care less about the dany-haters, they make no sense to me and I don't hear them.

http://awoiaf.wester...d_of_the_Dragon

Blood of the dragon came out a month before GOT. And anyway i know I'm right about Dany being the Protagonist, so ppl can say whatever they want and I'll still know I'm right about that subject at least through all these books I am sure about Dany.

Suzanna, I agree with you. I think George likes her too much for her to become the villian. But Dany haters want her to be the villian to justify their hate, as their reasoning is on pretty shaky ground. But that being said I wouldn't like to predict the remaining books at all.

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Suzanna, I agree with you. I think George likes her too much for her to become the villian. But Dany haters want her to be the villian to justify their hate, as their reasoning is on pretty shaky ground. But that being said I wouldn't like to predict the remaining books at all.

I love to be agreed with thank you. I also admit to having no idea what will happen in the last 2 books, but I am sure that Dany is a good guy all the way through. She is the reason a lot of people love the books and the show. While not all of her decisions have been perfect her and Jon are The SOIAF. and everyone needs to deal with it.

Edited by Suzanna Stormborn

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Suzanna, I agree with you. I think George likes her too much for her to become the villian. But Dany haters want her to be the villian to justify their hate, as their reasoning is on pretty shaky ground. But that being said I wouldn't like to predict the remaining books at all.

GRRM "liking" Dany doesn't necessarily preclude him from turning her into an antagonist. As stated again and again on these boards, very few characters will be purely good or evil. Dany has many admirable traits, but she has also made a lot of mistakes. I'm not a Dany hater, but I do see how it makes sense that she is, at least at the end of ADWD, heading down towards the "dark side".

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Dany may or may not sit on the iron throne. The slaves meant nothing to her, and look what she has done for them; or at least tried to do. With the counsel of the likes of Barristan and Tyrion and perhaps the support or guidance of Victarion and the maester from the Citadel, I don't see her going down the dark path.

She will play a pivotal role against the Others. After that, she might die, sit the Iron Throne, return to the East where she spent most of her life and where a lot of people call her mother, or even lead the first settlement into the ruins of the old Valyrian Empire.

But GRRM has NOT set her up to be a villain.

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Dany may or may not sit on the iron throne. The slaves meant nothing to her, and look what she has done for them; or at least tried to do. With the counsel of the likes of Barristan and Tyrion and perhaps the support or guidance of Victarion and the maester from the Citadel, I don't see her going down the dark path.

She will play a pivotal role against the Others. After that, she might die, sit the Iron Throne, return to the East where she spent most of her life and where a lot of people call her mother, or even lead the first settlement into the ruins of the old Valyrian Empire.

But GRRM has NOT set her up to be a villain.

I agree :) But what do you mean that 'the slaves meant nothing to her; and look what she has done for them' ?

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GRRM "liking" Dany doesn't necessarily preclude him from turning her into an antagonist. As stated again and again on these boards, very few characters will be purely good or evil. Dany has many admirable traits, but she has also made a lot of mistakes. I'm not a Dany hater, but I do see how it makes sense that she is, at least at the end of ADWD, heading down towards the "dark side".

yeah I mean I think he bad stuff has already happened. IMO what she did that was 'bad' was worry about Hizdar while she locked her dragons up. And when she was at the cave with Drogon and she turned her back on him and started walking away and then starting like dying or whatever was wrong with her. those were bad choices, clearly because right after that drogon came back to save her and then they feasted on burnt horse together :) (yummy) plus she made the terrible decision of saving MMD. So i think all in all she has already had a lot of 'bad' already.

don't you think?

Edited by Suzanna Stormborn

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I agree :) But what do you mean that 'the slaves meant nothing to her; and look what she has done for them' ?

I meant that she could have simply sacked the slaver cities and moved on to Pentos/Westeros. But instead she has been freeing slaves. She has spent a lot of time and effort on making sure that the freed are not enslaved again.

It is possible that GRRM intends Dany to move along this 'breaker of chains' story. She could go to Volantis where slaves are ready to rebel. If the slavers are decisively defeated outside Meereen, a lot of cities could be rid of slaves. It is possible that Dany arrives in Westeros with a unique army of Unsullied, Dothraki, freed slaves and Dragons! I am already drooling :)

BTW, I agree that Dany has already seen a lot of bad. Losing her brother, her husband and her son, not to mention the loss of her other family, is huge IMO.

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I meant that she could have simply sacked the slaver cities and moved on to Pentos/Westeros. But instead she has been freeing slaves. She has spent a lot of time and effort on making sure that the freed are not enslaved again.

It is possible that GRRM intends Dany to move along this 'breaker of chains' story. She could go to Volantis where slaves are ready to rebel. If the slavers are decisively defeated outside Meereen, a lot of cities could be rid of slaves. It is possible that Dany arrives in Westeros with a unique army of Unsullied, Dothraki, freed slaves and Dragons! I am already drooling :)

BTW, I agree that Dany has already seen a lot of bad. Losing her brother, her husband and her son, not to mention the loss of her other family, is huge IMO.

YUP agreed totally, I am also drooling waiting to see what happens. I hope they do go to volantis, that city is ripe. And now she has the iron born fleet and the volantis fleet to get her there. :cheers:

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I meant that she could have simply sacked the slaver cities and moved on to Pentos/Westeros. But instead she has been freeing slaves. She has spent a lot of time and effort on making sure that the freed are not enslaved again.

It is possible that GRRM intends Dany to move along this 'breaker of chains' story. She could go to Volantis where slaves are ready to rebel. If the slavers are decisively defeated outside Meereen, a lot of cities could be rid of slaves. It is possible that Dany arrives in Westeros with a unique army of Unsullied, Dothraki, freed slaves and Dragons! I am already drooling :)

BTW, I agree that Dany has already seen a lot of bad. Losing her brother, her husband and her son, not to mention the loss of her other family, is huge IMO.

I do think the portrayal of Volantis as a dynamite keg ready to be lit with regards to the slaves is a foreshadowing of events to come. However, unless the Narrow Sea freezes over in the next Winter, I don't see how all those people will get to Westeros.

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Sorry, but I could care less about the dany-haters, they make no sense to me and I don't hear them.

http://awoiaf.wester...d_of_the_Dragon

Blood of the dragon came out a month before GOT. And anyway i know I'm right about Dany being the Protagonist, so ppl can say whatever they want and I'll still know I'm right about that subject at least through all these books I am sure about Dany.

Eh? No. The first scene that GRRM wrote was the scene with Bran and the direwolves. Have a look at the Publishing History section here or here. You are right that "Blood of the Dragon" was the first story published, but the germ of George R.R. Martin's genius began with the direwolves being found in the snow. There's nothing to suggest (so far) that Dany is or isn't the protagonist, but her story is thickening and I am doubtful that George's done with her yet. Still, I implore you not to get your hopes up. Remember Ned and Robb. No one is invulnerable in the books of GRRM.

I meant that she could have simply sacked the slaver cities and moved on to Pentos/Westeros. But instead she has been freeing slaves. She has spent a lot of time and effort on making sure that the freed are not enslaved again.

It is possible that GRRM intends Dany to move along this 'breaker of chains' story. She could go to Volantis where slaves are ready to rebel. If the slavers are decisively defeated outside Meereen, a lot of cities could be rid of slaves. It is possible that Dany arrives in Westeros with a unique army of Unsullied, Dothraki, freed slaves and Dragons! I am already drooling :)

BTW, I agree that Dany has already seen a lot of bad. Losing her brother, her husband and her son, not to mention the loss of her other family, is huge IMO.

I think it's quite possible, probable even that Dany becomes mhysa for much of Essos. Remember Tyrion/Jorah's meeting with the Widow at the Waterfront, and the great emphasis placed on the ridiculous contrast of slaves/non-slaves in the city. Also we have Talissa from the HBO show coming from Volantis- it'd be unusual for them to include lore in that kind of medium lest it have some purpose down the road (they need to trim the fat).

I think however, it's foolish to dismiss the point of the poster in here doubting whether Dany is a protagonist. If anything can be gleaned from GRRM, is that he doesn't deal in black and white (unless it's Faceless Men ;) ), he deals in interesting. Dany as a Joan-of-Arc, dragon-riding slave-liberator is damned interesting, but too puffy and pure for this kind of story. We've seen how wild and dangerous dragons are, how one has murdered and eaten a child and doesn't discriminate at all in diet (man or animal it's all meat). They are terrifying creatures of fire made flesh (Others are described as "ice made flesh, hmm") and we know one of the main tropes GRRM's set to combat is the black/white, good/evil worlds that have dogged the genre since Tolkien.

From that meta-perspective, all you can really take away is that things are going to get interesting, as Dany's status as a morally outstanding badass abolitionist or a tragically fatal war-bringer and "bride of death" is.. well, very much up in the air right now.

I agree :) But what do you mean that 'the slaves meant nothing to her; and look what she has done for them' ?

Tyrion's chapters give pivotal insight into this. I've brought it up in another thread, and won't rehash it here, but Martin's treatment of slavery is well-done I think, for the most part. It is morally abhorrent, but striking the chains off of slaves and saying "well, now you're free; enjoy your live" isn't that simple. Tyrion's chapters in DwD give us some fantastic insight on just what it means to be a slave. He compares slaves to servants and notices little differ from them- indeed, in his experience he ate better, dressed better and was treated better than most in castles. The point isn't to say slavery is preferable, or slavery is needed or that Dany's doing wrong by opposing the system. What it brings is deeper insight; that you can have literal or social chains, but they bind all the same.. and tighter in some places than other. Then we have the case of Xaro's merchant friend, who begs to be enslaved by him now that his business is ruined. Many freedmen are poor and unable to provide for themselves. Whores may be free but what other trade do they know? Some people are better off, some ruined. The power structures shift but the whole remains rotten and repressive. I would of course prefer to be a freeman over a slave, if only for the ideal, but we can see in the narrative that what Dany is doing is not universally good and is going to bring a lot of suffering to people.

There is no better example than Astapor... Dany liberated that city, gave it freedom and a wise council to rule in her stead. Before she came the city was decaying admittedly, stained with the blood of slaves and the Unsullied especially. It was a miserable place, but it existed and there was prosperity and happiness to be found (Dany admits this when she remembers the lovers kissing on the way to claim her Unsullied)- and not all slaves were mistreated (though many were clearly). She left it a smoking ruin, full of horrors like King Cleon and Queen Whore, the Pale Mare and the "new" Unsullied made from noble's children. Most are dead now, or dying outside her walls spreading more plague. It's like Vaes Tolorro now, only we know how it fell and what became of its people.

Don't take that as apology for slavery though, like I said the institution is morally abhorrent. However, it is not so simple as removing the chains and feeling good for yourself. All the structural inequalities that dog Westeros are rife in Essos, and Dany's uprising- however noble, has also brought people from all economic and social backgrounds immense (and in many cases horrific) suffering. Unless Dany plans to bring upheaval to the feudal system as well, little is going to change structurally for many of the people in Westeros/Essos- you may be free, but still a slave to social structure and nobility and all this. It's a testament to the complexity of the story; it's not easy, it's not simple and it's not black and white.

Edited by Gordias

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I agree that dragons will become a problem. About Dany's reactions and tribulations about this, please let it be shorter and faster than her usual POVs...

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@Gordias - Thank you for posting such thoughts. If only I could type that much :D

I don't think Dany's path is going to be that easy. And as many people have pointed out, it is unlikely that she will reach Westeros before the end of TWoW. For that reason, and others that you and I mentioned, I think she will go to Volantis. How, though? Maybe through the roads of the old Valyrian empire? It would be such a shame for there to be so much discussion of Valyria etc without us even getting a glimpse of it. And who better to walk into the Empire than someone who has the blood of the old dragonlords?

Its all speculation, of course, and that's what is great about this series. There are so many plot-lines and characters that almost anything is possible. I think that it has become more and more probable with each book that Dany may not sit the Iron Throne. But she will rule somewhere, of that I am sure. And she will play a stellar part in the fight against the Others. You only have to watch the series to realize just how much more prominence they give to her role as compared to the books. Surely they are not doing that for nothing.

As for the dragons, they might cause some trouble in the beginning. But ultimately, a way will be found to make them obedient. At least as obedient as a dragon can be.

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@Gordias - Thank you for posting such thoughts. If only I could type that much :D

I don't think Dany's path is going to be that easy. And as many people have pointed out, it is unlikely that she will reach Westeros before the end of TWoW. For that reason, and others that you and I mentioned, I think she will go to Volantis. How, though? Maybe through the roads of the old Valyrian empire? It would be such a shame for there to be so much discussion of Valyria etc without us even getting a glimpse of it. And who better to walk into the Empire than someone who has the blood of the old dragonlords?

Its all speculation, of course, and that's what is great about this series. There are so many plot-lines and characters that almost anything is possible. I think that it has become more and more probable with each book that Dany may not sit the Iron Throne. But she will rule somewhere, of that I am sure. And she will play a stellar part in the fight against the Others. You only have to watch the series to realize just how much more prominence they give to her role as compared to the books. Surely they are not doing that for nothing.

As for the dragons, they might cause some trouble in the beginning. But ultimately, a way will be found to make them obedient. At least as obedient as a dragon can be.

The fun thing is, we may also find out that the Others aren't the principal worry of the realm. Martin's opposition black & white goes well beyond just the tinges of his universe and seeps right into the very fabric of what makes fantasy, fantasy (i.e. there's a Dark Lord that needs extinguishing so everyone can live happily ever after). Dany's path will be illuminating because she embodies the Fire in A Song of Ice and Fire, but will she and her dragons turn out protagonists? What will become of her? Who are the Others and the Red Lot?

It's going to be hard waiting for GRRM to tidy those plot-lines up but it's sure to be a wonderful book, as we're going to start really getting into the meat of those questions.

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If only GRRM kept to the usual 2 years between books...but I guess that the plot has thickened so much that it will probably take him a long time to clear up the mess :(

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