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I know this is a Barristan thread but I'll add it here anyway because we dont have a Victarion but he is relevant to Barristans chapters.

Anyway, while rereading Dance(again, i need a new hobby) I boticed that in the fighting pits there was (paraphrasing) 'a battle between a bull and a bear, that left both creatures torn and dying'. I thought this foreshadowed Victarion, who is often described as a Bull, fightig Jorah who is often described as a Bear. The fight would end with both men wounded and eventually dying. This ties in nicely to Barristans remarks that the sellsword companies are closest to the Bay, and werent joining the fight because they were engaged with the ships; Jorah is down there with the Second Sons. Even if it doesnt happen then, I imagine when Jorah finds out that Victarion intends to wed Dany he will go ape shit and attack Vic. I also think Barristan will return to the city and find that Skahaz has killed Hizdhar... And possibly sealed the gates against him

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I know this is a Barristan thread but I'll add it here anyway because we dont have a Victarion but he is relevant to Barristans chapters.

Anyway, while rereading Dance(again, i need a new hobby) I boticed that in the fighting pits there was (paraphrasing) 'a battle between a bull and a bear, that left both creatures torn and dying'. I thought this foreshadowed Victarion, who is often described as a Bull, fightig Jorah who is often described as a Bear. The fight would end with both men wounded and eventually dying. This ties in nicely to Barristans remarks that the sellsword companies are closest to the Bay, and werent joining the fight because they were engaged with the ships; Jorah is down there with the Second Sons. Even if it doesnt happen then, I imagine when Jorah finds out that Victarion intends to wed Dany he will go ape shit and attack Vic. I also think Barristan will return to the city and find that Skahaz has killed Hizdhar... And possibly sealed the gates against him

Nice remark. I can't remember Victarion ever being described as a bull, but then again, I haven't reread his chapters in like a year. When mentioning a bull, my mind jumps to Gerold Hightower immediately, but since he's been dead for 17 years, that's not gonna fly :)

Jorah fighting Victarion would be like one suitor fighting the other. Both don't seem to be the types to give up, so I could see this happening.

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Victarion and Jorah end up mortally wounding each other, that makes sense.



Jorah would start at a disadvantage, being starved, beaten, and exposed to drought and illness, while Victarion is a well-fed death machine with an extra boost from his magical arm.



However, like he was with Lynesse's favor, Jorah's emotions for Dany would be enough to drive him on and put up a solid battle against Victarion.



Love ends up being Jorah's greatest strength and his greatest weakness.



"The things we love destroy us every time, lad. Remember that." — Jeor Mormont.

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Victarion and Jorah end up mortally wounding each other, that makes sense.

Jorah would start at a disadvantage, being starved, beaten, and exposed to drought and illness, while Victarion is a well-fed death machine with an extra boost from his magical arm.

However, like he was with Lynesse's favor, Jorah's emotions for Dany would be enough to drive him on and put up a solid battle against Victarion.

Love ends up being Jorah's greatest strength and his greatest weakness.

"The things we love destroy us every time, lad. Remember that." Jeor Mormont.

Also note that now Jorah has joined the Second Sons, he is beginning to recover somewhat. His strength will be slightly restored by the time the two clash. I also have a feelling something will happen which allows Victarion to die. Either the Dragorn Horn blows, vic is distracted and a motally wounded Jorah stabs him, or Moqorro tends his wounds and reveals that Vic was nothing more than a means to get him to SB all along, and kills him

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I think Jorah will muster up the strength to deliver the kill shot without external distractions to help. I don't expect everything to be resolved but I'd like to think the "I did it for love" thing would have a good payoff.


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I wouldn't be entirely surprised if Barristan won his battle, turned around and found the city gates locked to him. OOPS.



Since the Shavepate ostensibly supported Dany's free-the-slaves campaign, his power base would be the new freedman, and there are a lot of former slaves in the city. He could dispatch his brazen beasts to kill the rival families (I doubt many of the freedmen would object to that) and solidify his power base from there.


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I wouldn't be entirely surprised if Barristan won his battle, turned around and found the city gates locked to him. OOPS.

Since the Shavepate ostensibly supported Dany's free-the-slaves campaign, his power base would be the new freedman, and there are a lot of former slaves in the city. He could dispatch his brazen beasts to kill the rival families (I doubt many of the freedmen would object to that) and solidify his power base from there.

By freedmen do you mean the companies of freedmen on thos who are part of the Brazen Beasts? Also, while I buy into the Skahaz turning on Barristan, the presence of 2000 Unsullied makes me.wonder whether he would dare.

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I think he'd dare. The Brazen Beasts and others used by the Shavepate are better suited for cloak 'n' dagger attacks that an urban setting would virtually demand. The Unsullied are great in the field with their phalanxes, but haven't fared well in sneak attacks against them by the SotH. As for freedmen, I mean anyone who was a slave in Meereen and is now free.


Edited by Red Raven

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I don't think he'd turn on Barristan, no. Barristan is widely considered one of the Danaery's most important councilors, whom the Unsullied listen to.



If the Shavepate really was behind the poisoning, and successfully fooled Barristan into usurping Hizzdar, then why make an enemy when you have a foolish friend? Especially with the situation so precarious. I'll assume the Shavepate knows Volantes is considering going to war, which means winning this battle means nothing if it costs him the best line infantry in the world making the city that much easier for Volantis to overwhelm.



However, there are several, smaller actions he can take to secure his power that won't necessarily pit him against the Unsullied and Baristan.


  • Killing King Hizzdar.
  • Taking Danaery's cup bearers into his own custody to use them more aggressively as hostages.
  • Attacking the pyramids of the other great families.
  • Seizing grain stores... with which he could control the city.

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I don't think the Shavepate poisoned her. He needed Dany alive (or thought to be still alive) to make the moves he did. Killing her would not have served his cause. I also wouldn't be surprised if he were genuinely loyal to her.


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I don't think the Shavepate poisoned her. He needed Dany alive (or thought to be still alive) to make the moves he did. Killing her would not have served his cause. I also wouldn't be surprised if he were genuinely loyal to her.

:agree:

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I don't think the Shavepate poisoned her. He needed Dany alive (or thought to be still alive) to make the moves he did. Killing her would not have served his cause. I also wouldn't be surprised if he were genuinely loyal to her.

It would have served his cause since Dany had married Hizdahr, and Hizdahr was replacing people in Dany's court. He was losing the ground he had just gained in Meereen. If Dany and Hizdahr had died from poison, then he could have blamed it on the Yunkai'i and rally Dany's forces to attack the slavers. He would have Dany's army and her two dragons, making him the undisputed ruler of Meereen.

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I disagree.



If Dany had been killed by the locusts, Barristan would not have stayed in Meereen, also the Freedmen remain together because they think Dany is alive. Without that belief, they disband and the Shavepate's power base crumbles. The Shavepate needs Dany being alive as a rallying point; poisoning her would have destroyed that.



Blaming it on the Yunkai'i when there are multiple factions inside of Meereen that want her dead (and everyone knows it) would have been empty and impotent, and how would the Yunkai'l have gotten access to the kitchens to poison the locusts in the first place? It was obviously an inside job.



ETA: If the Shavepate did poison the locusts then I think his target wasn't Dany but Hizdar.


Edited by Red Raven

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It would have served his cause since Dany had married Hizdahr, and Hizdahr was replacing people in Dany's court. He was losing the ground he had just gained in Meereen. If Dany and Hizdahr had died from poison, then he could have blamed it on the Yunkai'i and rally Dany's forces to attack the slavers. He would have Dany's army and her two dragons, making him the undisputed ruler of Meereen.

He would not have had the Dragons any more than Quentyn did.

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I disagree.

If Dany had been killed by the locusts, Barristan would not have stayed in Meereen, also the Freedmen remain together because they think Dany is alive. Without that belief, they disband and the Shavepate's power base crumbles. The Shavepate needs Dany being alive as a rallying point; poisoning her would have destroyed that.

Blaming it on the Yunkai'i when there are multiple factions inside of Meereen that want her dead (and everyone knows it) would have been empty and impotent, and how would the Yunkai'l have gotten access to the kitchens to poison the locusts in the first place? It was obviously an inside job.

ETA: If the Shavepate did poison the locusts then I think his target wasn't Dany but Hizdar.

Dany left Meereen, and Barristan is still there, and he would be inclined to see her killers brought to justice. The freedmen would still be naturally opposed to the people who enslaved them, without Dany, and they would be likely to avenge her if they thought she was betrayed and murdered. He needed her alive as his rallying point? Alive, she was the one in control and her husband was removing him from power.

Multiple factions in Meereen who want her dead? I think there was only one faction: the Meereenese nobility, and outside it was the Yunkai'i and their allies. The locusts were not from the kitchens of the Great Pyramid but a confectioner, and the freedmen aren't described as completely rational beings, and anger and rage over Dany's death would likely inhibit their ability to reason and look at all the evidence which isn't entirely available to them. The Yunkai'i would be the first suspects in Dany's death.

It was meant for Dany and Hizdahr, Dany knows that they had no reason to kill Hizdahr as he was the one who constructed the peace deal with the Yunkai'i, and had many friends amongst them and their allies.

It's gone over here.

He would not have had the Dragons any more than Quentyn did.

But he still would have had Meereen and an army. The dragons were in the Great Pyramid, and he isn't the most cunning given his clumsy assassination attempt.

Edited by Fire Eater

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