[TWoW Spoilers] Barristan

[BrojenReed]

It would make me so happy if when Victarion blows the horn, the dragons flock directly to him, only to torch him Quentyn-style.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

We have no idea what blowing the dragonbinder horn will do. I suspect it won't be as straightforward as someone blows it and the dragons come up to you - ie, it's not a dragon version of a dog whistle. I suspect the horn needs to be used along with either some other magic to fully control the dragons, and/or the dragons need to be more fully trained than Dany's are to respond as desired.

I sort of think it will be like a dog whistle, only in the sense that the dragon will come right to it. but no way will the dragon just show submission immediately, I mean they're dragons.

But I do think there is something to the Euron/Vic arrangement. Either Euron thinks the Dragon will just kill Vic, but that is a big waste, or he thinks that Vic will get control of a dragon and what just fly back to the iron islands and just hand it over to Euron. That doesn't make sense either, I know they are brothers and Euron thinks Vic is weak, but how weak will Vic be when he flies up on a dragon with all the hatred he has for Euron built up from their whole lives??

It just doesn't make much sense. i can't remember off hand, where did Vic pick up Morroquo? is he Euron's man.....no that doesn't seem right, ugh i have to read the books 3-5 for a 4th time so I can remember everything!

Edited March 1, 2013 by Suzanna Stormborn

[Im Reeking]

I sort of think it will be like a dog whistle, only in the sense that the dragon will come right to it. but no way will the dragon just show submission immediately, I mean they're dragons.

But I do think there is something to the Euron/Vic arrangement. Either Euron thinks the Dragon will just kill Vic, but that is a big waste, or he thinks that Vic will get control of a dragon and what just fly back to the iron islands and just hand it over to Euron. That doesn't make sense either, I know they are brothers and Euron thinks Vic is weak, but how weak will Vic be when he flies up on a dragon with all the hatred he has for Euron built up from their whole lives??

It just doesn't make much sense. i can't remember off hand, where did Vic pick up Morroquo? is he Euron's man.....no that doesn't seem right, ugh i have to read the books 3-5 for a 4th time so I can remember everything!

Very unlikely that Moqorro is Euron's man. He was aboard the ship that Tyrion and Jorah took. He blew off during the storm and was taken by one of the ships in the Iron Fleet and brought to Vic. He has likely been a red priest for a looong time. Nothing really tells us he is an infiltrator of any kind. So far we know to little of the horn or Eurons plan to know exactly what he has in mind. I think Vic will try and overthrow him at some point, if he even gets the chance that is.

On a completely different topic, Grrm has talked a few times about the different ways of naming chapters (names vs titles), has there been any discussion on this anywhere?

Edited March 1, 2013 by Im Reeking

[StoneToilet]

I think there is a possibility that at a certain moment Brown Ben might become a temporary rider for one of the dragons, thus splitting 3 dragons between 3 different partys - one with danny, one with ironborn and one with BBP /Tyrion.

I also think that exept for Danny/Drogon duo, the other 2 dragons might change riders over the next 2 books (the new riders of course will take over after the deaths of the previous ones)

For example, this might mean

Victarion temporarily controls 1 dragon, and then it is taken over by Euron

Brown Ben controls another one, but then, after BBP dies his dragon goes to someone else (Tyrion, Aegon, Jon, Darkstar, Samwell:) ???? I don't know)

Remember what Tyrion said about plumm? He likes to sit back and keep his options open while letting his opponents take all the risks. I don't see how it's in his character to ride a dragon, that would be taking a HUGE risk, as Quentyn found out.

I can see the dragons showing up and rampaging, but maybe being familiar with plumm saves the second sons? Maybe Dany rides in on drogon and reins the other two in? I have no idea what happens with the horn. I can't see a plausible scenario, except the whole magic being a sword with no hilt thing. I can see it backfiring if anyone tries to use it.

To whoever asked if the enemies inside were being accounted for: there's no way barristan fails to take them into consideration, and I have no doubt that's at least part of the reason why 3k unsullied were kept inside the city

[StoneToilet]

Very unlikely that Moqorro is Euron's man. He was aboard the ship that Tyrion and Jorah took. He blew off during the storm and was taken by one of the ships in the Iron Fleet and brought to Vic. He has likely been a red priest for a looong time. Nothing really tells us he is an infiltrator of any kind. So far we know to little of the horn or Eurons plan to know exactly what he has in mind. I think Vic will try and overthrow him at some point, if he even gets the chance that is.

On a completely different topic, Grrm has talked a few times about the different ways of naming chapters (names vs titles), has there been any discussion on this anywhere?

Somebody mentioned that earlier in this thread. Vic's chapters went something like reaver, captain, victarion, as in he was coming into his own as a self interested character

[KittensRuleBeetsDrool]

I sort of think it will be like a dog whistle, only in the sense that the dragon will come right to it. but no way will the dragon just show submission immediately, I mean they're dragons.

But I do think there is something to the Euron/Vic arrangement. Either Euron thinks the Dragon will just kill Vic, but that is a big waste, or he thinks that Vic will get control of a dragon and what just fly back to the iron islands and just hand it over to Euron. That doesn't make sense either, I know they are brothers and Euron thinks Vic is weak, but how weak will Vic be when he flies up on a dragon with all the hatred he has for Euron built up from their whole lives??

Even if the dragon horn works like a dog whistle - even with a dog, once you have it, you have to know how to handle it, and dragons are thousands of times larger and more dangerous and unpredictable than dogs. Tootling the horn is the easy part. What to do with a dragon after it comes flying up to you is the hard part, as Quentyn found out too late. For Vic's sake, either Moqorro had better know something about dragon-taming or Rodrik the Reader is there with a copy of "Dragon Taming for Dummies." If a dragon does indeed come flying at the sound of the horn and Vic goes striding up and tries to climb on its back or whatever, he's going to be roasted alive in that kraken armor of his (shades of Rickard Stark!).

Meanwhile, Euron can't be blind to Vic's (and for that matter Aeron's) hatred of him. I doubt he wants the dragon to just kill Vic, as I agree it would be a waste (Vic is a competent captain of the Fleet, after all) and I have to wonder if he thinks Vic will just hand Dany and the dragons over. Maybe Euron really does. Perhaps he thinks Vic is just that dutiful.

More likely, I surmise, is that Euron knows that Vic wants to cheat him, and knows he will do it in the most obvious way possible, and his plan is to intercept the dragon before it gets to Vic somehow, and then make everyone, including Vic, bow to him in awe once more. I recall in one of Dany's later chapters in ADWD she dreamed of Hizdahr having sex with her, but his lips were blue and his penis was ice cold. I don't know about that last part but the blue lips made me think of Euron. I wonder if the "one to dread" for Dany refers to Euron.

Euron's fatal flaw is hubris, and just as he didn't count on antagonizing the Tyrells when he sacked the Shield Islands, he probably won't be counting on angering an army of Unsullied and maybe a horde of Dothraki (if Dany kills Khal Jhaqo with Drogo and takes over his khalasar).

[Veltigar]

Euron's fatal flaw is hubris, and just as he didn't count on antagonizing the Tyrells when he sacked the Shield Islands, he probably won't be counting on angering an army of Unsullied and maybe a horde of Dothraki (if Dany kills Khal Jhaqo with Drogo and takes over his khalasar).

I don't agree with the bold part. Euron very much anticipates the hostility of the Tyrells, he's even counting on it. The confrontation between Ironborn and Reachmen will not end well for the Tyrells IMO, Euron has a plan and the Tyrells are falling for it.

[JMJ]

More likely, I surmise, is that Euron knows that Vic wants to cheat him, and knows he will do it in the most obvious way possible, and his plan is to intercept the dragon before it gets to Vic somehow, and then make everyone, including Vic, bow to him in awe once more. I recall in one of Dany's later chapters in ADWD she dreamed of Hizdahr having sex with her, but his lips were blue and his penis was ice cold. I don't know about that last part but the blue lips made me think of Euron. I wonder if the "one to dread" for Dany refers to Euron.

Good point. I think Euron has held back some key information from Vic (and hence us given we hear from Vic's POV). There's another piece to the dragon control puzzle beyond the horn. He will likely whip that out at the opportune moment. Besides, assuming his story of how he found the horn traveling the Smoking Sea by Valyria, how did he know what he had found was a dragon horn? How in his experience would he have learned to recognize it and its value? Did someone with that knowledge travel with him? If so, what else does Euron know about dragonbinding that we don't (yet)?

[Roughspun]

I think it’s quite possible that Euron had someone decipher the Valyrian glyphs on the horn.

Besides, it almost sounds as if Moqorro doesn’t translate all that is written on the horn. It might just not be mentioned, though.

[snowtarg]

Besides, it almost sounds as if Moqorro doesn’t translate all that is written on the horn.

Given that Moqorro believes that Daenerys is the world's deliverer, it is obvious that Moqorro is not planning to help Victarion do anything that might harm Dany. Victarion is entirely too trusting towards Moqorro. There is every reason to believe that Moqorro has left out crucal elements of the inscriptions on the dragon horn, such as how to control the dragon after it answers the summons.

[The Sunset King]

Euron's plan only really makes sense if he is series about marrying Daenerys or using the horn to gain control of a dragon. The Essos trek is too elaborate and wasteful of resources (if neither of those were true) to simply be a way of disposing of Victarion. Somehow Euron expects the scheme to work in his favor and was either counting on poison killing Victarion or Victarion walking into a trap. Moqorro was unexpected and increasing Victarion's chances but that does not guarantee Euron will not be the one to profit.

Either their is something about the horn that makes Euron extraordinarily confident about sending it with the Iron Fleet or he is secretly travelling to Essos. Given the claim that "all of Euron's gifts are poisoned," it is obvious that Victarion's interactions with the dusky woman are extremely dangerous. It is even possible that Euron took on her glamored appearance or that he somehow is coming to Essos as well (perhaps explaining the "corpse on the prow of a ship").

If Euron does end up at Mereen, he may have to dipose of Moqorro to avoid having the red priest contaiminating Daenerys's views of himself. Moqorro basically views Victarion as a tool and ally to help Daenerys; even with the horn he is not that dangerous to her. However, Moqorro already has heard enough from Victarion about Euron to be suspicious of the other squid and cannot risk trusting Daenerys's fate to Euron. He may already have put two and two together with the flame visions that showed threats to Daenerys.

Another possibility is that Euron will try to lull his enemies into a false sense of security on a massive scale by allowing Daenerys and Victarion to unite together, bidding his time until they reach Westeros. At that point, he would try to assassinate Victarion and capture/enslave Daenerys. However, the chances of success in such a matter would likely be slim and like a pipe-dream. It would be an enormous gamble.

Another thing that lends credence to the idea that Euron knows exactly what the deal with the horn is stems from the fact that he was aware precisely of the consequences of having it blown at the kingsmoot; that was not an experiment. His journeys in Asshai and meetings with mages all over the world may have radically increased Euron's level of knowledge about such artifacts. The question is whether events will thwart his plan or whether he will temporarily triumph.

There is also the question of wth happened to his eye.

Edited March 2, 2013 by The Sunset King

[gwenyth]

Wait....I don't get it, why would Tyrion be miserable?

Glad I have some company. I don't think i'm all that dim, and have managed some pretty dense writing in my time - does "Foucalt's Pendulum" count? - but by the end of ADWD I was so muddled by all the non-Westeros characters - the Sellswords with their outlandish names and costumes and shifting alliances quite defeated me. I had no idea why Tyrion would be miserable either, having only a vague memory that he was joined up with one or another of them - and which side that one was on that day I had no clue. There's a point - for me at least - when layer upon layer of complication becomes tiresome, and "Dance" went to that point and beyond in a number of instances.

Thanks to the posters who gave the chapter summaries. Interesting. I like Barristan too. Hope both he and the lovely silver mare survive.

[Jslay427]

Eurons knowledge of dragon blowing horns>Vic's knowledge of dragon blowing horns.

While a Euron chapter would probably give away too much, I really want one.

[jarl the climber]

Good point. I think Euron has held back some key information from Vic (and hence us given we hear from Vic's POV). There's another piece to the dragon control puzzle beyond the horn. He will likely whip that out at the opportune moment. Besides, assuming his story of how he found the horn traveling the Smoking Sea by Valyria, how did he know what he had found was a dragon horn? How in his experience would he have learned to recognize it and its value? Did someone with that knowledge travel with him? If so, what else does Euron know about dragonbinding that we don't (yet)?

The best theory that I have heard is that Euron captured the horn from Pyat Pree and the other wizards. It was Pyat and the three wizards, so the theory was that Pyat was going to sacrifice the three other wizards to get control of the dragons. Euron killed Pyat and iguess got the skinny on the horn from the other three surviving wizards. Him capturing the horn from the wizards makes more sense than him sailing to Valyria. The wizards having a dragon horn and knowing how to use seems plausible.

[JMJ]

The best theory that I have heard is that Euron captured the horn from Pyat Pree and the other wizards. It was Pyat and the three wizards, so the theory was that Pyat was going to sacrifice the three other wizards to get control of the dragons. Euron killed Pyat and iguess got the skinny on the horn from the other three surviving wizards. Him capturing the horn from the wizards makes more sense than him sailing to Valyria. The wizards having a dragon horn and knowing how to use seems plausible.

Interesting...

A minor issue is that for the show, they've killed off Pyat Pree already - they'll need to adjust this story line if it turns out true.

[Loras]

The best theory that I have heard is that Euron captured the horn from Pyat Pree and the other wizards. It was Pyat and the three wizards, so the theory was that Pyat was going to sacrifice the three other wizards to get control of the dragons. Euron killed Pyat and iguess got the skinny on the horn from the other three surviving wizards. Him capturing the horn from the wizards makes more sense than him sailing to Valyria. The wizards having a dragon horn and knowing how to use seems plausible.

That is a really interesting theory. I guess then that Euron was expecting Victarion to betray him and blow the horn himself. I doubt that Moquorro would be interested in allowing he dragons to be bound to Euron, and has suggested three other men to take the place of the warlocks?

I really like this theory.

[Lebronn Jaime]

Interesting...

A minor issue is that for the show, they've killed off Pyat Pree already - they'll need to adjust this story line if it turns out true.

We only assume the fourth warlock was Pyat Pree. He's never named in Euron's story and it isn't really important that the warlock be confirmed to be Pyat Pree, so nothing needs to be changed on the show.

[Wouter]

I don't agree with the bold part. Euron very much anticipates the hostility of the Tyrells, he's even counting on it. The confrontation between Ironborn and Reachmen will not end well for the Tyrells IMO, Euron has a plan and the Tyrells are falling for it.

I agree that Euron anticipates the reaction of the Tyrells and the Redwynes, but I'm not sure this means the confrontation between Ironborn and Tyrells+Redwyne fleet will end well for the Ironborn. After all, Euron sent the best part of his fleet away (Victarion with the dedicated warships of the Iron Fleet) while the Redwyne fleet will come at full force. If they can trap the Ironborn longships, Garlan has his opportunity to destroy them.

I doubt Euron is even present with the Ironborn in and near the Reach, as I suspect he is following Victarion in some way. If he is absent (in that case because his real goal are the dragons and he doesn't care much about the Ironborn as such - they only would have been a way to secure the Iron Fleet for his plans), then I think disaster will strike the Ironborn (not that I mind!). And once disaster strikes, they will have so much second thoughts about their king that any excuse for a new King's moot (looking at Theon and Asha) will do.

[Lpearce7]

I think your right. Dany will never get to Westeros in time to do anything relevant in the two remaining books unless she has a very good reason. The majority of her dragons being stolen would be the perfect reason to leave Meereen behind and head for Westeros.

That can't happen. The reason she hasn't left for Westeros is she doesn't want to leave Meereen the same way she did Astapor and Yunkai. If it's left a ruin, by her own dragons no less, I don't think it's something she'd get over. She'd only be less inclined to go take the Seven Kingdoms back. No, she needs total victory. A stable Meereen, the Harpy identified and the Sons disbanded and the dragons under her control … although, another way to get her to Westeros would be if one or both of the loose dragons are captured and taken there (after burning Meereen). She'd feel responsible for that.

[Veltigar]

I agree that Euron anticipates the reaction of the Tyrells and the Redwynes, but I'm not sure this means the confrontation between Ironborn and Tyrells+Redwyne fleet will end well for the Ironborn. After all, Euron sent the best part of his fleet away (Victarion with the dedicated warships of the Iron Fleet) while the Redwyne fleet will come at full force. If they can trap the Ironborn longships, Garlan has his opportunity to destroy them.

I doubt Euron is even present with the Ironborn in and near the Reach, as I suspect he is following Victarion in some way. If he is absent (in that case because his real goal are the dragons and he doesn't care much about the Ironborn as such - they only would have been a way to secure the Iron Fleet for his plans), then I think disaster will strike the Ironborn (not that I mind!). And once disaster strikes, they will have so much second thoughts about their king that any excuse for a new King's moot (looking at Theon and Asha) will do.

Then we seem to disagree. As I argued before in my own WoW prediction thread (http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/80773-my-personal-predictions-for-the-first-part-of-the-wow/) a massive Tyrell defeat is what the story needs right now. An Ironborn victory will work as a catalyst for almost every storyline south of the neck. To list a few examples 1) A Tyrell defeat will be the perfect opportunity for Faegon to become a major player (as of now he is fairly harmless), it will compell him to act and fill the gap that the Tyrells left by showing that he is the military wonderboy who'll save the realm 2) It would put further stress on the Tyrells if they loose Garlan, Willas and their castle. The stake of Margaery's trial would go up quite significantly 3) An Ironborn victory would oblige Sam to leave Oldtown 4) If the Redwyne fleet gets destroyed than the whole eastern shore of Westeros lies open for Dany's landing 5) etc.